Is this a good crush for BIAB (1st time)

[arnobg]

This was my first BIAB and I asked my LHBS to crush it finer for BIAB and this is what I brought home. Does it look pretty decent? I brewed it last night and I'll save the efficiency numbers until later on to see what you all think from the crush.

Here is two separate scoops:

 

[kh54s10]

There are a lot of whole "husks" As long as almost all of them are indeed cracked open it looks OK. But if they are not cracked open then it is not a good crush.

It is a bit hard from the pictures but it does not look like a good crush from what I can see.

 

[1MadScientist]

Does not look good to me either.

 

[slym2none]

Needs more flour.

 

[schematix]

Looks too coarse to me.

 

[WarrynPeace]

Hard to tell from the pictures, but in all honesty it looks about like what I usually get. I also do biab and while I set my recipes at 75% efficiency I usually come out a little higher.

 

[lowtones84]

Agreed that it could be a little finer, but I'm sure the beer will turn out fine. Check your numbers and adjust as needed!

 

[Gavin C]

no bueno IMO

need finer

 

[slym2none]

I ask my LHBS to double-crush my grains, tell them it's for BIAB, and it comes out nicely. I'll take a pic next time I get some grain crushed for a mash. I don't ask for double-crush when it's just steeping grains.

 

[DurtyChemist]

Looks like you'd hit 70% brew house on a 1.060 beer to me. Go with it.

 

[chawn]

I don't think the crush looks that bad. If you make an effort to control your pH, it will be fine.

I keep reading all these biab threads about flour. Why bother using a bag at all if you're going crush your grains to dust?

 

[slym2none]

A little more flour means lots more broken-up grain that you can't see. It doesn't need to be all flour... just seeing more than I am in that pic would be better.

 

[blizz81]

I keep reading all these biab threads about flour. Why bother using a bag at all if you're going crush your grains to dust?

I think the BIAB crowd would say "...because we can...?"


Then again, pictures of a crush only go so far. I feel it's even more devious here with the OP withholding the efficiency as some kind of sick "guess the crush" game.


Two can play at this...guess the crush on this in inches!

 

[sslater]

I think as long as the kernels are broken open you are okay. Hard to see for sure but didn't look like a big problem to me.

Wasn't the "double crushing" and "grind it to powder" thing with BIAB dispelled as unnecessary and actually risky of causing extra tanin extraction many moons ago...? Thought it did. Lots of myths and misinformation about BIAB spread by people who honestly have the best of intentions...

For those who say you have to crush BIAB grain to powder, brew two parallel batches side-by-side and test them (one ground to powder and the other with regular ground grain). Think you will be surprised...

 

[slym2none]

Just for note - I never said "grind it to powder". I do think that, looking at that pic, that if his crush showed a little more flour, then the grains themselves would be crushed better (the crush you can't see).

 

[arnobg]

I do appreciate the replies and thoughts on it. I guess I cold have done a larger photo. I only asked because from looking at other BIAB threads asking the same question it seemed SLIGHTLY course.

Now for the info you've all been waiting for. This was my first BIAB ever and it was for a 1 gallon batch so I mashed in 2 gallons of water and got the following efficiencies from Brewer's Friend using my equipment profile:

Ending Kettle: 92% 33.5 ppg
Brew House: 80% 29 ppg

I did rinse the grains with 2 cups of wort after the mash out while suspended above the kettle, I also squeezed the grain bag for a minute. Is this pretty good?

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

If you hit 80% your dead on..Look into a cereal killer grain mill Its around $110.Buy your grain in bulk,It'll pay for itself down the line.Mill the way you want,save on grain prices,no need to run to LHBS on brew day...no brainer

 

[m00ps]

Side note, does anyone else wet mill their grains for BIAB? I got tired of how much flour i was getting with ym fine crush and it works superbly. also smells almost as good as mashing in

 

[arnobg]

If you hit 80% your dead on..Look into a cereal killer grain mill Its around $110.Buy your grain in bulk,It'll pay for itself down the line.Mill the way you want,save on grain prices,no need to run to LHBS on brew day...no brainer

Appreciate the tip, I think I'm going to slowly transition to BIAB as it was pretty easy and I enjoyed the precision and science of it. It did turn into a long brew day for just a measly little gallon thought, but it was just a test run so I'l do larger batches next.

My 9 gallon kettle should be large enough for 5 gallon BIAB with session beers and pale ales right?

 

[blizz81]

Side note, does anyone else wet mill their grains for BIAB? I got tired of how much flour i was getting with ym fine crush and it works superbly. also smells almost as good as mashing in

That was kind of the trick in my "counter: guess THIS crush!" post...condition our grain, in pics it definitely looks like there are kernels, but they're really just fluffy shells.

 

[Gavin C]

I do appreciate the replies and thoughts on it. I guess I cold have done a larger photo. I only asked because from looking at other BIAB threads asking the same question it seemed SLIGHTLY course.

Now for the info you've all been waiting for. This was my first BIAB ever and it was for a 1 gallon batch so I mashed in 2 gallons of water and got the following efficiencies from Brewer's Friend using my equipment profile:

Ending Kettle: 92% 33.5 ppg
Brew House: 80% 29 ppg

I did rinse the grains with 2 cups of wort after the mash out while suspended above the kettle, I also squeezed the grain bag for a minute. Is this pretty good?

I'm puzzled

How did you lose 12 percentage points from end kettle to fermentor. Something seems awry

What was the grain-bill?

What was the OG?

What was the volume in the fermentor?

These will give you your BH efficiency.

With any crush, doesn't matter what system you use, BIAB or otherwise, you want the grains milled as finely as you can without causing any reductions in lautering efficiency.

Crush too fine using a braid or false bottom as a manifold and lautering efficiency can be reduced. Similarly crushing too fine in a grist with a lot of husk-lesss grain like wheat or rye can have similar consequences.

If you crush finer, all else being equal it will take less time to achieve maximal conversion efficiency.

The question as to why BIAB' ers crush so fine, which seems to be a source of angst for some in the thread is because the manifold (the bag) is un-blockable owing to its massive surface area relative to a false bottom or braided hose. It is therefore much more suited to a finer milling.

The appropriate question should be why aren't you milling finer if using an un-blockable manifold.

Grain being crushed too finely is often cited as source of tannins and astringency. This is not the case in my experience. Temperatures in excess of 170F and a pH in excess of ~6.0 are needed to achieve this.

On another note. OP sparging with wort is entirely ineffective as the concentration gradient of sugars between the wort soaked grain and your sparging liquid is zero. No sugar will move as this would disobey the fundamental laws of physics.

It would be like dyeing a white t-shirt in a water/dye mix and then using more dye/water mix to try to rinse out the soaked in dye from the t-shirt getting it back to white.

If you are bothering to sparge, sparge with water not wort of the same gravity.

 

[arnobg]

I'm puzzled

How did you lose 12 percentage points from end kettle to fermentor. Something seems awry

What was the grain-bill?

What was the OG?

What was the volume in the fermentor?

These will give you your BH efficiency.

With any crush, doesn't matter what system you use, BIAB or otherwise, you want the grains milled as finely as you can without causing any reductions in lautering efficiency.

Crush two fine using a braid or false bottom as a manifold and lautering efficiency can be reduced. Similarly crushing too fine in a grist with a lot of huskies grain like wheat or rye can have similar consequences.

If you crush finer, all else being equal it will take less time to achieve maximal conversion efficiency.

The question as to why BIAB' ers crush so fine, which seems to be a source of angst for some in the thread is because the manifold (the bag) is un-blockable owing to its massive surface area relative to a false bottom or braided hose. It is therefore much more suited to a finer milling.

The appropriate question should be why aren't you milling finer if using an un-blockable manifold.

Grain being crushed too finely is often cited as source of tannins and astringency. This is not the case in my experience. Temperatures in excess of 170F and a pH in excess of ~6.0 are needed to achieve this.

On another note. OP sparging with wort is entirely ineffective as the concentration gradient of sugars between the wort soaked grain and your sparging liquid is zero. No sugar will move as this would disobey the fundamental laws of physics.

It would be like dyeing a white t-shirt in a water/dye mix and then using more dye/water mix to try to rinse out the soaked in dye from the t-shirt getting it back to white.

If you are bothering to sparge, sparge with water not wort of the same gravity.

Good question thanks for the reminder. I topped off the fermentor with some water because the volume was slightly under target and OG was way above target.

Grain Bill:



1.5 lb American - Pale 2-Row
0.15 lb American - Carapils
0.05 lb American - Special Roast
0.03 lb Belgian - Biscuit
0.03 lb United Kingdom - Pale Chocolate

OG was expected to be 1.045 @ 70% Efficiency according to Brewer's Friend

Once put into the fermentor I was slighly short on volume and the OG was 1.059 so I topped it off with some water and came out @ 1.051 and got that efficiency.

 

[Gavin C]

Good question thanks for the reminder. I topped off the fermentor with some water because the volume was slightly under target and OG was way above target.

Grain Bill:



1.5 lb American - Pale 2-Row
0.15 lb American - Carapils
0.05 lb American - Special Roast
0.03 lb Belgian - Biscuit
0.03 lb United Kingdom - Pale Chocolate

OG was expected to be 1.045 @ 70% Efficiency according to Brewer's Friend

Once put into the fermentor I was slighly short on volume and the OG was 1.059 so I topped it off with some water and came out @ 1.051 and got that efficiency.

Still doesn't explain the lost points. The sugars are there in the same amount before and after dilution. Perhaps you left a bunch of wort in the kettle. 10+% of the wort. That could explain that.

Assuming correct measures of volume and gravity and complete mixing of the wort and top-up water that gives.

1 gallon in the fermenter OG 1.051 79% brewhouse efficiency. Seems your crush was indeed, up to the task after all. Not too surprising given the relatively large preboil volume for a 1 gallon batch.

 

[TheMadKing]

FWIW my LHBS has 1 crush setting and for my BIAB I just mash a little longer and squeeze the bajesus out of it. Squeezing really seemed to be the key to efficiency boosts for me.

 

[arnobg]

Yes I did leave a little wort in the kettle with hop sediment and what not, but I didn't think it was too much. Probably about the same amount I ended up having to top off.

Unfortunately as good of a brew session it was, the beer isn't going to turn out great in my option. My original recipe was a 5 gallon Irish Red that I scaled down however, my LHBS substituted some wrong grains since they didn't have it all.

For Belgian Caramel pils they gave me Carapils and they gave me crisp pale chocolate instead of UKchocolate. It looks less like a red ale than my pale ale does.

 

[jdauria]

For Belgian Caramel pils they gave me Carapils and they gave me crisp pale chocolate instead of UKchocolate. It looks less like a red ale than my pale ale does.

Is there such a thing as Belgian Caramel Pils? Never heard of it. Cara is just another name for Caramel or Crystal...so Carapils seems like a valid substitute.

The use of pale chocolate (probably around 220 SRM) vs regular chocolate at 550 SRM would definitely be the reason for your color issue, plus the fact that you added some water to fermenter. Would have asked shop for US chocolate malt instead, assuming they add it.

 

[arnobg]

Is there such a thing as Belgian Caramel Pils? Never heard of it. Cara is just another name for Caramel or Crystal...so Carapils seems like a valid substitute.

The use of pale chocolate (probably around 220 SRM) vs regular chocolate at 550 SRM would definitely be the reason for your color issue, plus the fact that you added some water to fermenter. Would have asked shop for US chocolate malt instead, assuming they add it.

I made the mistake of handing the guy the list and he got to work on it...

From what I found on a goole search, the appropriate substitute for Belgian Caramel Pils (also known as Belgian Cara 8) is Caramel 10L....Gonna be a but of a difference between Carapils there.

NB provides Belgian Cara 8 in their Irish Red ale kits.

 

[normonster]

I three-vessel and fly sparge and I crush much more fine.