Is there a consensus on the 'best' plastic carboys or fermenters?

[S-Met]

Question for those who love their Fermonsters, I was looking at one at the LHBS and it felt like it was made out of a very flimsy plastic. Do you find that to be an issue?

I put them in milk crates before filling

This and/or straps. I think my hauler was less than 10 from more beer or Amazon and can easily be put on a full carboy without disturbing it too much.

If you get one you’ll want one of these to remove the lid. For $4.99 it’s actually a really nice tool that’ll come in handy for more than just removing caps, I don’t normally recommend Harbor Freight but this is a good tool.

https://m.harborfreight.com/2-pc-rubber-strap-wrench-set-69373.html

This. I had these for other reasons and has come in very handy. You don't need to crank the lid down tight, but it inevitably happens.

You're suggesting that plastic is ok for long-term aging? Not arguing, I just hear a lot of conventional wisdom to the contrary. If the "O2 permeability of plastic is a thing in long-term storage" belief is just another fallacy, that's good to know.

Pet bottles are used for long term beverage storage, just go down a drink isle in the store and see. Shelf life is greater than 1-2 years depending and I don't feel like there is a significant oxidation in many of the products. Using this as a comparison, I'm not sure that the fermenter or bucket (both of which are thicker than most bottles) will "seep" oxygen at a significant rate. I'm not sure that anyone has officially tested and believe that "oxygen seep" is a standard belief without scientific backing. Less than a year aging in plastic is not a concern of mine.

I would be more concerned with oxygen from head space. Keep it minimum, meaning top up with every transfer and the airlock full.

Edit for punctuation

 

[RPh_Guy]

You're suggesting that plastic is ok for long-term aging? Not arguing, I just hear a lot of conventional wisdom to the contrary. If the "O2 permeability of plastic is a thing in long-term storage" belief is just another fallacy, that's good to know.

I was simply suggesting that stainless & glass aren't impervious to oxygen because quite a bit can pass through an airlock.

In my opinion the actual difference between PET and something impermeable like glass or stainless is negligible when you factor in headspace and airlock oxygen transmission.

Several scientific sources suggest that HDPE is vastly more oxygen permeable than PET. They shouldn't really be lumped together when talking about oxygen permeability. Yet, as evidenced by this thread, many people use HDPE vessels for cider, so it's hard to argue.

Anecdotally I've seen numerous wine makers and sour beer brewers use/prefer PET, so I think it's acceptable for most purposes.
My flanders has been sitting in my Fermonster for 7+ months now with no hint of acetic acid, so I'd say it's not excessively oxygen permeable.
As s-met mentions, PET is super common to use for beverage packaging.

Another thing to think about is barrel aging. Lots of wine is barrel aged, right? Oak lets in some oxygen. Corks also let in a controlled amount. It allows the flavors to mature for aged wines.

OP was mainly concerned with cider. Any wine or cider should be sulfited during aging to protect it from oxygen.
Depending on the cider making process, the cider may or may not benefit from aging.
Something to think about.

Cheers

 

[GPP33]

This and/or straps. I think my hauler was less than 10 from more beer or Amazon and can easily be put on a full carboy without disturbing it too much.


This. I had these for other reasons and has come in very handy. You don't need to crank the lid down tight, but it inevitably happens.




Pet bottles are used for long term beverage storage, just go down a drink isle in the store and see. Shelf life is greater than 1-2 years depending and I don't feel like there is a significant oxidation in many of the products. Using this as a comparison, I'm not sure that the fermenter or bucket (both of which are thicker than most bottles) will "seep" oxygen at a significant rate. I'm not sure that anyone has officially tested and believe that "oxygen seep" is a standard belief without scientific backing. Less than a year aging in plastic is not a concern of mine.

I would be more concerned with oxygen from head space. Keep it minimum, meaning top up with every transfer and the airlock full.

Edit for punctuation

Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET or PETE) by itself has pretty good gas (especially oxygen) permeability. That means oxygen can pass through it. Why would it want to? All things liquid, solid and gas always want to move from areas of high concentration to areas of low concentration, it’s a process called diffusion. In the case of oxygen and PET (really any polymer) the gas will pass right through the physical barrier to reach that area of lower concentration. There’s plenty of science to back that up, it’s not just a home brewers old wives tale.

The beauty of PET is that there are several ways to decrease its permeability, unfortunately we don’t know which, if any, they use for any of these fermenters. What we do know though is that it’s a very slow process unless you have a pressure differential involved (even then it’s slow). I’d be willing to bet my next batch of beer that the O2 introduced during transfer to secondary is several orders of magnitude higher than what will diffuse through the walls of a fermenter. So basically, RDWHAHB and watch your beer/mead/wine age.

 

[Wayne1]

For cost and convenience, I feel the Spiedel are the way to go. Lots of mods from Jaybird/Norcal brewing solutions

 

[S-Met]

Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET or PETE) by itself has pretty good gas (especially oxygen) permeability.

Every study that I have read on this topic (probably less than 5-6 max over several years) is discussing gas permeability of film. Every study also stated that the permeability is inversely proportional to the thickness of the film. Gas permeability of film 0.008-0.013mm (8-13 micrometers thick) whereas the typical fermenters are 1.5-3mm thick (200-300 times thicker than the film).

Other notable mentions are that gasses typically follow the least resistant path. Though less predictable than electricity or liquid, they will diffuse through the airlock and lid before passing through the walls of the fermenter.

 

[GPP33]

Every study that I have read on this topic (probably less than 5-6 max over several years) is discussing gas permeability of film. Every study also stated that the permeability is inversely proportional to the thickness of the film. Gas permeability of film 0.008-0.013mm (8-13 micrometers thick) whereas the typical fermenters are 1.5-3mm thick (200-300 times thicker than the film).

Other notable mentions are that gasses typically follow the least resistant path. Though less predictable than electricity or liquid, they will diffuse through the airlock and lid before passing through the walls of the fermenter.

Both very good points, you do have a lot more surface area in the walls though. At the end of the day they aren’t screen doors letting all the air in, not worth worrying about.

 

[S-Met]

Both very good points, you do have a lot more surface area in the walls though. At the end of the day they aren’t screen doors letting all the air in, not worth worrying about.

Couldn't agree more. The gas exchanged through the walls of the fermenter walls are negligible. I am in no way qualified to tell you how long it will be safe for long term storage in a fermenter, but will assuringly state that less than 1 year is not a concern providing the head-space is minimal and the airlock is full. Also provided that the conditions (temp, humidity and atmospheric pressure) remains relatively stable.
1-2 years: probably safe provided the conditions above.
2 or more: hell, I think 6 months is a long time, I'd have bottled and wanted my fermenter back by now. They can continue to age in the bottle.

 

[Aleforge]

I got a big mouth for XMAS and the simple fact that my arm fits inside is amazing. That lid though... wth. I noticed my bubbler not well... bubbling. Then quickly realized the lid had started coming off. Now I have a weight on top of it. HOWEVER I am still super happy to have one. My response is pretty irrelevant I guess, but wanted to talk about the stupid BM lid (lol).

 

[wasully]

Thanks for all the replies.

How many years do you plan to store the cider in the fermenter? Oxygen permeability is still pretty low and for most applications it is not a problem. Neither is the head space as long as you keep the bucket closed and the airlock full.

3-12 months bulk aging.

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks for all the replies.



3-12 months bulk aging.

3 months would not be a problem at all. I'm not sure about the 12 months but can you transfer to another vessel without introducing more oxygen than would permeate the plastic bucket?