Is the crush my problem w efficiency? (PICS)

[fimpster]

I just brewed my 11th all grain batch. I have have really dialed in the procedure and technique on my rig, and my equipment profile in BS has been very accurately measured. However, my efficiency seems to always be low, and I suspect my crush. Sure enough, it was low again today. I usually buy my grain at my LHBS and have them crush it.

Have a look at these pics and tell me if you think it is my crush. Thanks.

 

[blizz81]

It barely looks like it went through a roller on the first pic.

 

[kh54s10]

The first picture and the last look like totally different crushes. The first looks barely crushed and the last looks pretty good.

Sift through it. You should find very few grains that are not well broken. They can be fairly intact as long as there is a good crack going from end to end Exposing the inside.

If you find a lot of unbroken grains tighten it up.

You can go pretty floury as long as you don't get a stuck sparge. I use a corona style mill and my grains are pretty well shredded.

 

[blizz81]

True about the first and last pictures. For me, when people ask about crush, looking at a few pictures isn't generally a good indication. I mean, this is what mine looks like at 0.028", but conditioned:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...AEqo/V9FGz1bqH2A/w1167-h875-no/IMAGE_978.jpeg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...AEqw/nF_0LAzlNmk/w1167-h875-no/IMAGE_979.jpeg


You could just ask your LHBS what their crush width is. I think mine said they do it at 0.037". Most are in that "ok but not very aggressive" range it seems. I used to go more by the notches / default on my BC and just go by sight verification of crush...made a few changes including feeler gauges to measure (and cranked down to aforementioned 0.028") and went from the mid 60s brewhouse efficiency to consistently around 80%. The other changes were made at the same time so I can't say it was all crush, but it was the only one that made sense re: making any sort of noticeable change to efficiency to me.

 

[fimpster]

I intentional took the first pic because that is how it looks from the top of the bag. I knew it didn't look good. The second is the bottom of the bag, and then I reached in and grabbed a handful from the middle, which I thought looked fine. I took those pics late last night as an afterthought and unfortunately (or fortunately, really) I cannot go back and inspect them as today they have become beer.

I think next time I'll ask my LHBS to run it through twice and see what happens. My measured efficiency according to BS has been averaging 55-60%. Once as low as 53% and once as high as 74%, but never consistent. I'd be happy with 65% if I could just get it consistent. Although 75% would be preferable.

Also, I think a grain mill is in my future. I do have a birthday coming up...

 

[Monkey-BB]

Same thing happened to me...
Since then I tightened up the gap and ran it they twice.
Now it's better.
Good luck

 

[chewse]

Get yourself a Monster Mill and mill the grains yourself. You won't be sorry.

 

[cease]

Get yourself a Monster Mill and mill the grains yourself. You won't be sorry.

Winner! Buying my own mill has helped with efficiency and consistency not to mention the $ you save buying grains in bulk.

 

[Schecter]

I use a corona mill (yes the $20 one) with a drill. Efficiency went from 65% to 75-80% after the switch. I use rice hulls to be safe when sparging.

 

[cyberbrew]

Get yourself a Monster Mill and mill the grains yourself. You won't be sorry.

^^This. After I picked up a MM2 my mash efficiency constantly hits 80+, which is great, but now I have to alter my grain bill down a bit...which does take a little bit of faith that I'll still hit my numbers. In any case, you're making beer so :rockin:

 

[Gavin C]

I agree with the prior contributors. Looks like a very ho-hum crush. Flour at the bottom of the bag and lots of seemingly intact grains up top.

My typical crush. (Two passes with my two roller mill)

 

[moreb33rplz]

I use a corona mill (yes the $20 one) with a drill. Efficiency went from 65% to 75-80% after the switch. I use rice hulls to be safe when sparging.

I know this has come up before, but I'm still unclear. How did you get your corona mill on a drill? I tried using a bolt bit, and never got it to budge an inch. I tell myself that 30 minutes of hand grinding for every brew is healthy, but damn if it doesn't get old.

 

[Hoppity]

I agree with the prior contributors. Looks like a very ho-hum crush. Flour at the bottom of the bag and lots of seemingly intact grains up top.

My typical crush. (Two passes with my two roller mill)View attachment 263478

Hey Gavin:
Is that a mouse tail in the top of that picture?

 

[Gavin C]

Hey Gavin:
Is that a mouse tail in the top of that picture?

I hope not!

Perhaps this will clarify

No animals were harmed in the milling of this grain

 

[hopslover30]

Hey fimpster looking at the crush it does look good to me in that third pic. The crush can be a reason for low efficiency also how do you sparge fly or batch? A great sparge can have big results usually a sparge should be quite slow up to an hour to really wash out those sugars. Hope this helps.

 

[kh54s10]

I know this has come up before, but I'm still unclear. How did you get your corona mill on a drill? I tried using a bolt bit, and never got it to budge an inch. I tell myself that 30 minutes of hand grinding for every brew is healthy, but damn if it doesn't get old.

I found a bolt the right size and threads. Installed it and cut off the head. You need a high torque drill. Mine is a 1/2" hammer drill, hammer option turned off, from Harbor Freight. I think it was $29.

If your drill cannot turn it, try loosening a bit. The first drill I tried was barely enough, it would mill but would overheat easily.

Now an average batch takes about 10 minutes milling twice.

 

[doug293cz]

Hey fimpster looking at the crush it does look good to me in that third pic. The crush can be a reason for low efficiency also how do you sparge fly or batch? A great sparge can have big results usually a sparge should be quite slow up to an hour to really wash out those sugars. Hope this helps.

Slow sparging is necessary for max efficiency with fly sparging, as the sugar extraction rate is being controlled by diffusion out of the grain particles. If you sparge too fast, you don't maximize the diffusion. And the larger the crush, the slower the diffusion.

With batch sparge, it is more important to stir well (5 - 10 minutes) after the sparge water is added to make sure the sugar concentration in the sparged wort is maximized (in equilibrium with the sugar remaining in the grain particles.) It is also important to minimize MLT dead volume, and drain completely for first runnings, and second runnings.

Brew on

 

[Monkey-BB]

Slow sparging is necessary for max efficiency with fly sparging, as the sugar extraction rate is being controlled by diffusion out of the grain particles. If you sparge too fast, you don't maximize the diffusion. And the larger the crush, the slower the diffusion.

With batch sparge, it is more important to stir well (5 - 10 minutes) after the sparge water is added to make sure the sugar concentration in the sparged wort is maximized (in equilibrium with the sugar remaining in the grain particles.) It is also important to minimize MLT dead volume, and drain completely for first runnings, and second runnings.

Brew on

I usually always fly Sparge nice and slow, But today I was trying to be Mario Andretti and tried a batch Sparge... I missed my og by 8....chalk one up to taking your time! I'll spend the extra hour to make a great brew!

 

[Schecter]

I know this has come up before, but I'm still unclear. How did you get your corona mill on a drill? I tried using a bolt bit, and never got it to budge an inch. I tell myself that 30 minutes of hand grinding for every brew is healthy, but damn if it doesn't get old.

As the other poster stated, I found a bolt at Lowe's with the same threads (you can Google it I honestly forget) and removed the handle on the mill and screwed the bolt in. I didn't cut the head off the bolt, I just use an attachment that fits the bolt head perfectly. I can look tomorrow if this is an avenue you're trying to pursue.

Cheers

 

[fimpster]

Hey fimpster looking at the crush it does look good to me in that third pic. The crush can be a reason for low efficiency also how do you sparge fly or batch? A great sparge can have big results usually a sparge should be quite slow up to an hour to really wash out those sugars. Hope this helps.

I batch sparge currently, but I built my single pump, two-tier brew stand to be able to fly sparge if I ever wanted to. Perhaps I'll give that a try. Just need to build a sparge arm.

 

[hotwatermusic]

Do you always source your grains from the same place? An easy test would be to buy a batch from one of the larger on-line companies, they probably couldn't get away with giving their customers a 50% efficiency crush. I also agree with a slow lauter and fly sparging. A "Zapap" bucket is a real easy, cheap way to test that method and see if it suits you. Another less addressed issue with efficiency issues is high mash ph. Do you measure? The strips just plain suck, if you don't have a meter, that problem could be deduced by going over past SRM and efficiency numbers, some correlation would come up in that case. I think crush is important but also overblown cause dudes just love using power tools. Cheers.

 

[fimpster]

Do you always source your grains from the same place? An easy test would be to buy a batch from one of the larger on-line companies, they probably couldn't get away with giving their customers a 50% efficiency crush.

This is a great question and one I have myself investigated by going over all of my notes and records. Of the 11 all grain batches I've brewed, on 10 of them the grains came from my LHBS, and one of them came from Northern Brewer. The batch from Northern Brewer was the highest efficiency I've gotten so far, 74%.

Another interesting fact is that I have brewed the same exact recipe once with the NB grains and a couple of months later with my LHBS grains (Common Room ESB). Both batches used Crisp MO as base and only the specialty grains being different, i.e. Briess crystal from my LHBS and Simpsons crystal from NB. The batch using my LHBS crushed grains was 66% efficiency vs 74% using the NB crushed grain.

 

[hotwatermusic]

I would try asking your lhbs to try milling twice and explain maybe their crush doesn't vibe with your system, you can try and be cool about it. If they can't get you a better crush,go elsewhere. At 74% I would be satisfied. Actually I am.

 

[daggers_nz]

True about the first and last pictures. For me, when people ask about crush, looking at a few pictures isn't generally a good indication. I mean, this is what mine looks like at 0.028", but conditioned:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...AEqo/V9FGz1bqH2A/w1167-h875-no/IMAGE_978.jpeg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...AEqw/nF_0LAzlNmk/w1167-h875-no/IMAGE_979.jpeg


You could just ask your LHBS what their crush width is. I think mine said they do it at 0.037". Most are in that "ok but not very aggressive" range it seems. I used to go more by the notches / default on my BC and just go by sight verification of crush...made a few changes including feeler gauges to measure (and cranked down to aforementioned 0.028") and went from the mid 60s brewhouse efficiency to consistently around 80%. The other changes were made at the same time so I can't say it was all crush, but it was the only one that made sense re: making any sort of noticeable change to efficiency to me.

ah man, these pictures look nothing like the crush I get from my LHBS. I suspect they don't look after their mill at all. I don't really have the room or $$ to buy my own mill at the moment, maybe I should ask them to put it through twice. My grains usually look a lot like OP's.

 

[fimpster]

I would try asking your lhbs to try milling twice and explain maybe their crush doesn't vibe with your system, you can try and be cool about it. If they can't get you a better crush,go elsewhere. At 74% I would be satisfied. Actually I am.

I do plan to ask them to double mill my next batch. They are very cool guys and I'm sure it wouldn't be any problem whatsoever. I haven't really talked to them about their mill, since it's in the back room I've never seen it. I do also plan to ask what size gap they use, if it's a double or triple roller, etc.

Since starting this thread I have done a lot of reading about grain mills. I've decided that when I get one, I will spend the money and get a good one that will last a lifetime. And I've been putting the idea in SWMBO's head that it would make a great birthday gift next month.

Edit to add: I would also be satisfied with 74%, but I only hit that with the one batch I bought from Northern Brewer. 2-row and MO are both cheaper from my LHBS than I've found online, so I will continue to patronize my LHBS for grain.

 

[hotwatermusic]

Right on. I stick to the local place as much as possible! You have to consider their point of view. They are milling a ton, literally, every year. They need to consider their maintenance aspect. Plus unlike a home brewer that can adjust often according to grain bill, they need to find a happy medium for any number of wacky home brewer recipes. Different grains have different requirements, as far as hardness, size etc. My local shop has been invaluable and never tried to up-sell or make me feel stupid when I was starting out.

 

[Schecter]

ah man, these pictures look nothing like the crush I get from my LHBS. I suspect they don't look after their mill at all. I don't really have the room or $$ to buy my own mill at the moment, maybe I should ask them to put it through twice. My grains usually look a lot like OP's.

Double milling at my lhbs used to work for me as well, hitting near 70% efficiency. But not for nothing, as I said earlier in a post, my $20-30 corona mill works just fine (as it does for Charlie Papazian too). I didn't feel like gushing money for a mill either and I'm more than satisfied. Plus it looks rustic. That's always cool.

 

[daggers_nz]

Double milling at my lhbs used to work for me as well, hitting near 70% efficiency. But not for nothing, as I said earlier in a post, my $20-30 corona mill works just fine (as it does for Charlie Papazian too). I didn't feel like gushing money for a mill either and I'm more than satisfied. Plus it looks rustic. That's always cool.

they don't sell these Corona mills in my country, the closest thing I could find is this
http://www.haurakihomebrew.co.nz/grain-mills/403-victoria-grain-mill.html

 

[govner1]

I'm lucky in that my LHBS has an excellent mill with grooved rollers that gives an excellent crush all the time. It is set @ .029.
I was gifted a three roller MM which I motorized & set the gap @ .031 to compensate for the knurled roller.
I get an excellent crush as well on those occasions I have purchased bulk grain or on the rare occasion I buy at another LHBS in the area that has an unreliable crush.

 

[daggers_nz]

this is what I got from my LHBS today after asking for double mill. I suspect they are under milling to ultimately make more money from grain and that wouldn't surprise me as they are always overcharging for other stuff.




Combined this with my new sparge procedure (ended up taking about 2 hours from mash out to pre-boil) I hit 85% today when I usually hit 65%. Very happy!

 

[CGish]

they don't sell these Corona mills in my country, the closest thing I could find is this
http://www.haurakihomebrew.co.nz/grain-mills/403-victoria-grain-mill.html

That would work just fine, but the price is 3 - 4 times too high.

 

[jekeane]

I would like to assume that a lhbs is setting their mill to accommodate the most systems without getting stuck sparges, and that is why their crush is not the greatest for people who know their systems.

As for the lhbs trying to scratch out some more cash on people who are adjusting for the bad crush on purpose. It certainly could be their motivation but the damage to their business vs the dollar or two they gain seems like a far to silly decision.

I get 65% from my lhbs. I batch sparge and have used two different tuns. At this point I am certain it is the crush but I haven't bothered asking him to double crush because I usually have my young sons with me and don't have the time. My trade off is my boys move everything around in the store...

Another lhbs opened up about the same distance from my house and a major topic of conversation at last months homebrew club was how much better the mill is. I will likely get my next grain bill from them and see for myself.

 

[Gavin C]

this is what I got from my LHBS today after asking for double mill. I suspect they are under milling to ultimately make more money from grain and that wouldn't surprise me as they are always overcharging for other stuff.




Combined this with my new sparge procedure (ended up taking about 2 hours from mash out to pre-boil) I hit 85% today when I usually hit 65%. Very happy!

Glad to hear you got a result. What a huge difference!

 

[daggers_nz]

That would work just fine, but the price is 3 - 4 times too high.

even with currency conversion?

 

[RM-MN]

even with currency conversion?

Apparently so. I converted that to US dollars and came up with about $84 US. I paid about $25 US for a similar mill delivered to my door.

 

[Ski12568]

I got a cereal killer from homebrewing.org for 99$ free shipping and just posted about at the blog. I'm happy with it

 

[fimpster]

So I was in my LHBS this afternoon and asked about their mill. They have a Monster Mill MM3, and the owner was very up front that they gap theirs on the coarse side. He said they are happy to mill it any way I request, but they leave it a little coarse by default. This is to accommodate the majority of brewers out there, without having to know specifics for each customers system, and worry about stuck sparges.

They also sell MM2's for the same price Monster Brewing does. When I do get my own mill, I will be supporting my LHBS.

 

[daggers_nz]

maybe I shouldn't have been so quick to assume my LHBS was ripping people off. But they are definitely overpriced because they have little competition

 

[Gavin C]

maybe I shouldn't have been so quick to assume my LHBS was ripping people off. But they are definitely overpriced because they have little competition

No worries. LHBS like any business come in all varieties. The great and the good, the poor and the needy. Ive found a great one here and love spending time there. Really welcoming as opposed to my first visit to a competitor's store when I was a very green Noob.

Best of luck to the Kiwis in the final tomorrow. Looking forward to them hopefully giving the Aussies one in the eye.

 

[fimpster]

UPDATE

My last two brews I tried some different techniques to try and raise my efficiency. I'm posting this update for anyone else who may happen by this thread.

On the first of the last two brews I still got my standard LHBS crush (coarse, as previously posted). However I stirred the mash three times, once at dough in, once at 20 min, and once at 40 min (60 min mash). Previously I only stirred once really well at dough in and then left it alone so I could keep the heat in my cooler MLT by not removing the lid. I normally loose maybe 1/2 - 1*F in an hour this way. Stirring obviously caused some heat loss, so I added a quart or two of hot water from my HLT each time to keep the temps up. I also lautered (batch sparge) very, very slowly, like a gallon each 15 minutes. I used to run it off fairly quickly, but slow enough not to get stuck. I also split the sparge water in two, and did two batch sparges, stirring each one very well then letting it settle for 5-10 minutes. I previously only did one batch sparge. This method achieved a mash efficiency of 80.7% per Beersmith.

On my second brew (boiling away now), I had my LHBS run it through the mill twice, which was still set at their normal coarse crush. During the mash I stirred three times again, at dough in, after 30 min, and after 60 min (75 min mash). I also added a bit of hot water each time to keep temps up. I also lautered very slowly again, and did two batch sparges. Today's mash efficiency is 80.8% according to BS.

This tells me that it is likely not necessarily the crush, but my process in mashing and collecting the wort. I built my sculpture to accommodate fly sparging, but I have never done it. I may look into it though if I am going to continue running off so slowly. Both of these recipes are going to yield a higher ABV beer because I had adjusted my BS to lower efficiencies. I guess that's not a bad thing.

Hope this helps anyone that may be in the same situation.