Is pilsner a ale or lager?

[likwidbliss]

I need to rack some beer and dry hop it.

 

[Indyking]

More than likely 'penguin didn't mean anything like that at all, just mistyped it, your friend came across it some point, didn't bother to do any further research into it, and you're all making a big hullabaloo about jack.

I tend to agree with you about the post by penguin in the other site, but the reason for my "big hullabaloo about jack", in your own words, is that even people here seem to be confused about the classification of stouts. Talked to my friend just a few minutes ago. He's what he thinks (his opinion is in bold italic): stouts are not always ales, unlike BJCP styles claim. Stouts are often lager beers because they are brewed with lager yeasts in lager fermenting times. Other people here in this discussion seemed to have confirmed that. Also, according to him, he claims that pilsners he is talking about are truly light lager yeast-fermented stouts. He never said pilsners are ales. I think I understood his reasons. I’m just not sure how much pilsners out there fits in his definition. But, in the end of the day, I think it's quite simple to figure this out. The yeast nature is always the factor that classifies the beer, if in doubt about the classification of any beer; just try to figure out if ale or lager yeast was used. That's a simplified but correct way to never go wrong, I reckon.

 

[Revvy]

I tend to agree with you about the post by penguin in the other site, but the reason for my "big hullabaloo about jack", in your own words, is that even people here seem to be confused about the classification of stouts. Talked to my friend just a few minutes ago. He's what he thinks (his opinion is in bold italic): stouts are not always ales, unlike BJCP styles claim. Stouts are often lager beers because they are brewed with lager yeasts in lager fermenting times. Other people here in this discussion seemed to have confirmed that. Also, according to him, he claims that pilsners he is talking about are truly light lager yeast-fermented stouts. He never said pilsners are ales. I think I understood his reasons. I’m just not sure how much pilsners out there fits in his definition. But, in the end of the day, I think it's quite simple to figure this out. The yeast nature is always the factor that classifies the beer, if in doubt about the classification of any beer; just try to figure out if ale or lager yeast was used. That's a simplified but correct way to never go wrong, I reckon.

But that really has nothing to do with the fact that your friend, despite you thinking he knows more about you, has hung his hat on an erroneous and more than likely mis-written statement on a website that isn't even a true brewing site...He's wrong, pure and simple....

Like someone else said the Stout/porter debate has been done to death. But there are some great threads on here about them.

But I'm not going to say there's confusion about stouts as ales or lagers at all. Since probably less than 5% of the stouts brewed in the world are probably "tropical" stouts and brewed with lager yeasts, heck it could even be less. I've only had lion, and haven't heard of the other ones mentioned in Remmy's posts. For all we know it might be less than one percent. So I don't think it's too far off the mark to say "Stouts are Ales, with a few exceptions brewed in tropical parts of the world using lager yeast." Kinda like our wiki states.

Stouts originally were brewed with ale yeast, you can't really dispute that, then someone decided to brew it with lager yeast in a climate where folks were more apt to lager their beers, or strive of a lighter more refreshing beer.

Hell, I've taken many of my recipes and played with them with lager yeast, including ipa's....But I wouldn't expect some footnote or anything in some style guide because I decided to do it. I'm sure in this huge planet of beer nirvana we live on, there are commercial breweries who do the same thing, brew trad ale recipes with lager yeast and vice versa, but I don;t think they'd expect a footnote in the bjcp style guide.

It's not like something big that has emerged like the Dark Ipa/cascadia or whatever the hell anyone wants to call it these days. Where it's reached some "tipping point" or something. I don't thnk there's ever going to be a huge rush for lagerstouts in the marketplace that would call for a major re-shaping of the beer terminology for it.

Heck some of us still consider Pluto a planet, despite what astronomy has said in the last few years.

 

[remilard]

I don't think the BJCP says that all stouts are ales. By its nature, the BJCP guidelines group things. They do point out that many baltic porters and tropical stouts may be made with lager yeasts, so clearly someone thinks that is a notable distinction.

Seriously, got get a Lion (preferably in the can, hardy har). It's got the characteristics both of a tropical stout grain bill and of a lager. If you fermented it with ale yeast it would be a different beer. Notable distinction.

 

[Heckle]

I think what your friend was probably trying to say was something like this... "Mrhm hrmm, mrhm mmrhhm mhrum mrhm mmrhm mrrrhm". Which roughly translates to: "Trust me, I know what I am talking about" in the ancient language known as CranialRectumish.

 

[Indyking]

But that really has nothing to do with the fact that your friend, despite you thinking he knows more about you, has hung his hat on an erroneous and more than likely mis-written statement on a website that isn't even a true brewing site...He's wrong, pure and simple....

You are right, I agree with you regarding the issue of classification of beers. But that was not the point. My friend never really looks at internet forums... he claims forums have just too much speculation and little facts, which I disagree. I love the forums because they are very informative.

My friend's opinion is based on the fact that he brews a lot of lagers that use stout-based ingredients but with a lighter malts and lager yeast. He calls it pilsner because he uses a combination of pilsner and roasted malts. I supposed he has his own classification (and his beer do taste great!), but he claims many American pilsners out there use a similar recipe. Whatever!

 

[Revvy]

.... He calls it pilsner because he uses a combination of pilsner and roasted malts. I supposed he has his own classification (and his beer do taste great!), but he claims many American pilsners out there use a similar recipe. Whatever!

Pilsners are a specific style of beer, from a specific region of the world, actually a specific style of Lagers.

That's different from Pilsner malt (though they usually contain the malt.) The malt name comes from the fact that it was grown in pilsen or nearby for and used originally for that beer.

Just because he uses a specific ingredient in it, doesn't change the style or the name. Pilsner malt is a type of base malt, just like marris otter or standard 2-row. Or vienna even. I use a lot of pilsner malts in my brewing as well, Belgians, my Cream Ale, blonds, I've even done some ipa-like smashes with them, but that doesn't make them pilsners.....Or anything even remotely like that.

If I make a stout and decide to use vienna, or marris otter or pilnser in it, it doesn't mean my stout is a "vienna stout" or an "otter stout" or a "pilsner" stout.

 

[COLObrewer]

There are many different aspects of what makes a pilsner a pilsner, depending on what you classify as pilsner, some would only call it a pilsner if the water profile matched that of Pilsen (Czech Republic now I think). etc., so this thread is going to come down to . . . .potayto, potaato, tomayto, toemaatoe. etc. Like I said before, I like beer, all beer probably . . . That being said, I doubt some people would classify any commercial american beer as a pilsner.

 

[Hang Glider]

And because so many of us harbor so many opinions, we need to find a way to reach agreement (although this thread may never achieve that lofty goal!). Thus, the BJCP has become our main source when looking at styles. If there is another, please submit it! We may choose to produce variations of a style, or create recipes without regard to a style, but if we're talking Stouts and Pilsners - then anything else is just toying around. There is no basis in fact that pilsners are light stouts. Just sayin...

 

[l1ranger]

There is no basis in fact that pilsners are light stouts. Just sayin...

or, we could go with the fact that they basis is all malted barley, water, and yeast and say that all beers that aren't as dark as a stout are just lighter versions of stouts, regardless of any of the other differences

 

[COLObrewer]

or, we could go with the fact that they basis is all malted barley, water, and yeast and say that all beers that aren't as dark as a stout are just lighter versions of stouts, regardless of any of the other differences

Now you're just being silly . . .

 

[Revvy]

or, we could go with the fact that they basis is all malted barley, water, and yeast and say that all beers that aren't as dark as a stout are just lighter versions of stouts, regardless of any of the other differences

OR we could say that all beers are just darker versions of Pilsners.

 

[Indyking]

OK, now you guys are just making fun of my poor friend's opinions!

That’s OK, I can careless, but I tell you this. He may not know as much as I thought he did; heck, he has years of experience, but he makes outstanding beers... say true.

I just hope I can produce something like his in a not-so-distant future... I'm still in the kit stage and my beer is OK so far, better than Bud for sure, but I want to get into craftsmanship at some point…

 

[COLObrewer]

. . . . . . of course the Brandywine tomato is an heirloom that can be classified as an indeterminate, pink fruited, large fruit, oblate shape with some green shoulders and some ribbed shoulders with some cracking, yield can range from low to relatively high, having potato leafs and being very meaty, flavor from insipid to superb, sometimes with a hint of smoke . . . . . . . . . . . unless you're talking about the yellow brandywine, then of course it is a golden yellow fruit with a . . . . . . . . . .

 

[GaryJohn]

to the OP...that is so weird!

I was at a liquor store the other day (a big one, with lots of craft beers) and I was looking for a certain imperial stout. The guy working there tried to sell me an imperial pilsner by the same brewery. I said "but that's a pilsner."

He said, "Yeah, pilsner is just another name for stout. They're the same thing."

WTF!? Where do these people get this idea from???



btw, pilsner is a lager.

 

[SwampassJ]

vs.

Your friend is confused. Stouts, whether brewed with ale or lager yeast aren't going to look like any pilsner, taste like any pilsner.

 

[stageseven]

My friend's opinion is based on the fact that he brews a lot of lagers that use stout-based ingredients but with a lighter malts and lager yeast.

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this statement. The only ingredients that I would really consider "stout-based" would be black patent/black barley. I think just about every other type of malt would commonly be used in recipes for a variety of different styles.

In any case, I think your friend is just thinking about styles in the wrong way. It's not really necessarily even about what specific ingredients go into it, it's more about the qualities of the end result. And as far as particular style characteristics go, stouts and pilsners are about as far from each other as you can get, regardless of whether they are fermented with a lager or an ale yeast.

It's great that your friend is a good brewer, and you can probably learn a lot about brewing from him. But the next time he tries to say a pilsner is a lighter stout, smack him in the face and say "no!".

 

[KellyK]

In a slight digression but related topic, as to the poster who had the issue with the liquor store clerk making an alternative suggestion, I really wish they wouldn't do that if they don't know what the heck they're talking about. I am brewing a Belgian Blonde for my mother. She wanted to know what it is going to taste like. I told her to go to the store and see if she could find some Leffe (since it's corporate owned, larger distribution, maybe even available in her crummy TN liquor selection). They didn't have it. The clerk at the store handed her Stella and St. Paulie Girl and told her those would be comparable choices. I kind of get the misinformed opinion on the Stella because at least it's "from" Belgium, but St. Paulie Girl????

Fortunately she called me and I saved her from thinking that her beer would taste like either of those two beers.

 

[l1ranger]

OR we could say that all beers are just darker versions of Pilsners.

now we are getting somewhere

 

[northernlad]

Well what is fact is that a Stout is not a Pilsner.
It can be made with a bottom fermenting yeast and be lagered, but is not a lager.
And, this person you know likes to talk. About things he needs more education on.

 

[Indyking]

It's great that your friend is a good brewer, and you can probably learn a lot about brewing from him. But the next time he tries to say a pilsner is a lighter stout, smack him in the face and say "no!".

Yeah, I didn't smacked him but I did tell him that people over this forum think he is full of... you know. I keep my values strong and have respect for the elderly, so I may just give him a break about the pilsner vs. stout thing. I’m already getting some advice from him though.

First thing he advised me to do was to throw my plastic bottles from the kit in the trash or give it to my kids to play. Even though the kit's manufactures say it's OK to reuse the bottles several times, he calls that a “croc of baloney” According to him, plastic is the worst choice to store beer and the idea of reusing the plastic bottles with screw caps make he wanna puke. Do you guys agree?

 

[Revvy]

First thing he advised me to do was to throw my plastic bottles from the kit in the trash or give it to my kids to play. Even though the kit's manufactures say it's OK to reuse the bottles several times, he calls that a “croc of baloney” According to him, plastic is the worst choice to store beer and the idea of reusing the plastic bottles with screw caps make he wanna puke. Do you guys agree?

More reasons to realize that he doesn't crap, or all that he knows comes from 20 years ago....you even mentioned that he doesn't follow the discussions on the web. So his mindset IS stuck way in the past and not following any developments in this RAPIDLY changing hobby.

There have been so many changes even just in the plastics industry over the last few years, especially after the bisophenol A recalls of a few years back, that modern Pet and HDPE plastics are lightyears ahead of what he thinks of them.

Heck, it's been 10 years since the first plastic beer bottles came out for Macro Breweries even...so his opinions are really outdated.

These came out in the year 2000.....Do you REALLY think that a multi-bazillion dollar macro beer industry would risk it buy putting their flagship products in something crappy?

Dude he may make, what you think is good beer. But please don't put your faith in the info he's peddling. This is where the most up to date info can be found.

 

[Indyking]

Heck, it's been 10 years since the first plastic beer bottles came out for Macro Breweries even...so his opinions are really outdated.

I know... he is the kind of guy who is doing his own brew for ages and just don't think the technology out there would do any good on improving his product because his beer is good and, most important, a whole bunch of friends like it.

I have been appreciating his beer for a while but I always thought brewing was just for geeks who spent a good deal of time learning and investing tons of money on it because he has this huge beer making paraphernalia built over the years, until I went to a party 2 months ago and drank homemade beer out of a reused 2 liter plastic (PET) bottle made by someone just like me, then, that was when I started researching and realized it doesn’t take much to do a decent beer and decided to give it a try.

I told him about the beer I had out of PET bottles and he just said “don’t be fool, go to the shop and look how many commercialized beers are available in plastic bottles, don’t you think the industry has not tried it before? It just doesn’t work well because it alters the taste of the beer in the long run”

He is also the kind of guy that won’t buy ingredients online, no matter how reputable the store is; because he thinks they are not fresh.

So, instead of listening to him, I will just learn it my way using the public information out there, like this site, to improve as I go…. I think it will be wiser…

 

[Walker]

i haven't really read this thread completely yet, but I had to open it up because it was such a simple question in the title, but had WAY to many responses to make sense.

 

[Revvy]

Buy him this shirt....

 

[l1ranger]

Buy him this shirt....

i love it

 

[stageseven]

So, instead of listening to him, I will just learn it my way using the public information out there, like this site, to improve as I go…. I think it will be wiser…

That's probably not a bad idea, but the important thing is just to separate the facts from opinions. Lots of people have different ways of making beer, but still get good results. You'll see a lot of debate on here about what's the "best" way of doing something, but at the end of the day (hopefully) everyone's just having fun and making beer. Always look for the "why" behind the things people are saying and you'll have a better understanding of how to make beer and be able to judge for yourself what works best for you.

For instance, one possible reason he could say using plastic bottles would be a problem is because they are easier to scratch than glass bottles. If you're not adequately careful with them and they get some internal scratches somehow (say from a bottle brush intended for glass bottles), they could easily start to harbor bacteria that could spoil your beer. In this case there may actually be some legitimate concern to what he's saying, but he's definitely taking it past the point of good sense.

 

[BigB]

Heck some of us still consider Pluto a planet, despite what astronomy has said in the last few years.

What???? Next you are going to say that Santa Claus isn't real!

Otherwise I agree with everything you said.:cross:

 

[KevinW]

Lager is a process and a yeast type!
Ale is a type of yeast!

Schwarzbier is a type of lager! (made with lager yeast)
Alt is a type of ale! (made with ale yeast)
Stout is a type of ale! (made with ale yeast)
Steam beer is a type of lager! (made with lager yeast at ale temps)
Kolsch is a Hybrid?? (ale yeast at lager temps)

But they are all beer no matter what you call them and that is all that matters!!
Go beer!

 

[RCCOLA]

How about some BJCP style guidelines to further clarify this ridiculous thread?-->Pilsner http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style02.php
Stout--> http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style13.php