Is my starter dead?

[kombat]

I'm planning on brewing up a 5 gallon batch of Pilsner Lager on the 12th. I figured I need about 400 billion yeast cells. I'm starting with a single "smack-pack" of Wyeast Czech Pils yeast.

I started my starter last night (since my flask is only 2L, so I'll need to do a 2-step starter). I smacked the smack pack, waited 3 hours, then started brewing my starter wort from about 1.8 L of water and 180 g of DME. I boiled the DME (plus 1/4 tsp of yeast nutrient) for 15 minutes, chilled to 60 F in about 15 minutes, poured into the flask, shook the bejeezus out of it for a couple of minutes, while I dipped the yeast packet in StarSan, then opened up the sanitized yeast pack (which had swollen a little by now) and poured in the yeast. Covered with sanitized aluminum foil and wrapped a couple rubber bands to form a good seal that will allow CO2 out. The flask was left on the kitchen counter, at room temperature (probably 65 - 70 F) overnight.

8 hours later, I checked it this morning, and there were no signs of life. All the foam that had been created by my vigorous shaking was gone. The starter actually looked stratified, with a dark layer near the top, then a light brown layer below that, then the rest of the starter, lighter still, toward the bottom. There is yeasty-looking sediment in the bottom of the flask.

Now, I know it's only been 8 hours. And I think I already know the answer ("Be patient!") But the smack-pack had already started to swell by the time I had opened it, and I'm just curious. Is it normal for a lager yeast to take a while to get going?

 

[OHIOSTEVE]

I have never used a smack pack but isn't the swelling from co2 from the yeast? if so they they are alive, just be a bit more patient.

 

[Dynachrome]

Hmmmn, I see some yeast starters being kept moving on a stir plate. Would it be worth agitating it some more if you need to accelerate the process?

Another (probably ludicrous) question. Did you record an Original Gravity?

Check out the threads that are starting to show at the bottom of this page for extra info. too.

 

[h4mmy86]

It has probably already fermented out. I usually miss all signs of fermentation in my 2L starters because it happens so damn quick.

 

[stratslinger]

A couple things:

1) You don't really need (or want, actually) a "good seal" on a starter. You want to keep the nasties out, yes. But you want to allow CO2 out and, much more importantly, you want to allow as much more O2 back in as possible. In a starter, you want to encourage yeast propagation, not necessarily fermentation. So, consider loosening up that seal a bit, and definitely shake up that starter every time you come near it!

2) It's a little late now, but if you're planning to brew on the 12th (10 days from now), even if you plan to step up your starter, you brewed your starter a few days earlier than you needed! Typically, yeast will chew through starter wort in 24-36 hours, so long as it's healthy and relatively viable. Usually, if I'm doing a step up, I'll work backwards as follows:
- I need to cold crash the starter overnight before brew day, so I can decant and just pitch the slurry (1 day)
- I need to allow the second step 24 hours to propagate (1 day)
- I need to cold crash the first step overnight, so I can decant and pitch the slurry to the second step (1 day)
- I need to allow the first step 24 hours to propagate (1 day)

That adds up to about 4 days, so if I'm brewing on a Saturday, I try to start up my first step on a Monday or Tuesday night. This isn't saying your starter is doomed - nothing of the kind! Just saying that it's a little less than optimal, and that next time around you may want to schedule a little more like the above.

3) Lastly - a starter is a lower gravity wort, and quite often it can ferment out very quickly and you'll miss any sign of fermentation. 8 hours does seem pretty quick though - I'd give it the full 24 hours though, and if you still haven't seen any signs, take a gravity reading.

 

[J187]

A couple things:

1) You don't really need (or want, actually) a "good seal" on a starter. You want to keep the nasties out, yes. But you want to allow CO2 out and, much more importantly, you want to allow as much more O2 back in as possible. In a starter, you want to encourage yeast propagation, not necessarily fermentation. So, consider loosening up that seal a bit, and definitely shake up that starter every time you come near it!

2) It's a little late now, but if you're planning to brew on the 12th (10 days from now), even if you plan to step up your starter, you brewed your starter a few days earlier than you needed! Typically, yeast will chew through starter wort in 24-36 hours, so long as it's healthy and relatively viable. Usually, if I'm doing a step up, I'll work backwards as follows:
- I need to cold crash the starter overnight before brew day, so I can decant and just pitch the slurry (1 day)
- I need to allow the second step 24 hours to propagate (1 day)
- I need to cold crash the first step overnight, so I can decant and pitch the slurry to the second step (1 day)
- I need to allow the first step 24 hours to propagate (1 day)

That adds up to about 4 days, so if I'm brewing on a Saturday, I try to start up my first step on a Monday or Tuesday night. This isn't saying your starter is doomed - nothing of the kind! Just saying that it's a little less than optimal, and that next time around you may want to schedule a little more like the above.

3) Lastly - a starter is a lower gravity wort, and quite often it can ferment out very quickly and you'll miss any sign of fermentation. 8 hours does seem pretty quick though - I'd give it the full 24 hours though, and if you still haven't seen any signs, take a gravity reading.

Without a stir plate, he may be thinking he'll want to leave his starter out for longer than 24hrs. The couple starters I have done without my stir plate, because I pitched in my stir bars , I noticed that it didn't seem to ferment out until 36 hours - 48 hours. My stir plated starters usually seem done at 24. So I guess starting 10 days early isn't a big deal - 2 days step 1, cold crash over night 1 day, 2 days step 2, cold crash until brew day - could be 6 days or so.


To the OP - I've noticed that my starters without a stir plate show much less fermentation signs than do those with stir plate. If you pitched yeast into wort, and didn't kill or shock them, it's working.

What I do with smack packs for starters is simply take the pack out of the fridge early enough to bring it to pitching temp. When I cool my starter wort, I open the pack and pour the yeasties in. I then fish out the nutrient pack, open that, and pour that in too. Onto the stir plate.

 

[kombat]

you brewed your starter a few days earlier than you needed! Typically, yeast will chew through starter wort in 24-36 hours, so long as it's healthy and relatively viable.

That's what I figured. I planned to allow it 2 full days to ferment through (today and Saturday), then Saturday night, I'll move it into the fridge to cold-crash for 3 days. Then next Wednesday, I'll decant off the wort, brew up another 2L of fresh DME wort, swirl it back to life, let it go for a couple more days, then next Friday, back into the fridge to drop the yeast out of the wort again.

My reasoning was this is a medium-flocculation lager yeast, and as such would require more time than an ale yeast to drop out of solution. I was trying to minimize the amount of yeast I lose in decanting off the spent wort.

I'd give it the full 24 hours though, and if you still haven't seen any signs, take a gravity reading.

That's a good suggestion, I'll take a look at it when I get home tonight and see if anything's changed from this morning.

At any rate, it's reassuring to know that I didn't do anything obviously wrong. I wish my DIY stir plate was working. Currently, it just makes the stir bar jump around a bit, then settle at the edge of the flask. I think I need to break the magnet in half and separate the ends farther apart on the fan.

 

[WilliamShakesbeer]

I doubt it - seems pretty normal to me. I have had only a couple of starters that actually showed any significant krausen - all others seemed pretty tame. They all worked just fine once they were pitched though

 

[J187]

That's what I figured. I planned to allow it 2 full days to ferment through (today and Saturday), then Saturday night, I'll move it into the fridge to cold-crash for 3 days. Then next Wednesday, I'll decant off the wort, brew up another 2L of fresh DME wort, swirl it back to life, let it go for a couple more days, then next Friday, back into the fridge to drop the yeast out of the wort again.

My reasoning was this is a medium-flocculation lager yeast, and as such would require more time than an ale yeast to drop out of solution. I was trying to minimize the amount of yeast I lose in decanting off the spent wort.



That's a good suggestion, I'll take a look at it when I get home tonight and see if anything's changed from this morning.

At any rate, it's reassuring to know that I didn't do anything obviously wrong. I wish my DIY stir plate was working. Currently, it just makes the stir bar jump around a bit, then settle at the edge of the flask. I think I need to break the magnet in half and separate the ends farther apart on the fan.

Yea, that's a good strategy. I leave starters in the fridge for several days no prob. If you aren't going to use it within a week of being done, that starts to get iffy... But your fine cold crashing for a few days between steps.

 

[jpabian]

It's been a long time since I've used a smack pack, but yeah, if should have swelled before you opened it.

I've never had to use a starter, (knock on wood), but have recently been only using dry yeasts with excellent results. My LHBS has a great variety of dry yeasts.

It's probably okay, but I was in the same situation, I'd be nervous, too. I guess you could pitch it, and if you see nothing in the normal time frame, you could repitch with some new/fresher yeast.

If only there was a saying about relaxing and having a home brew to help ease your mind... ;-)

 

[J187]

It's been a long time since I've used a smack pack, but yeah, if should have swelled before you opened it.

I've never had to use a starter, (knock on wood), but have recently been only using dry yeasts with excellent results. My LHBS has a great variety of dry yeasts.

It's probably okay, but I was in the same situation, I'd be nervous, too. I guess you could pitch it, and if you see nothing in the normal time frame, you could repitch with some new/fresher yeast.

If only there was a saying about relaxing and having a home brew to help ease your mind... ;-)

Why do you say this? I can understand not using a starter with dry yeast, but why do not want the opportunity to use a starter? I use starters with all liquid yeast when I can - time permitting - and I'm not nearly as concerned with full attenuation as I am with yeast quality and beer quality. Better beer!

 

[Caveman3141]

Did you take a gravity measurement before throwing the yeast in?

 

[jpabian]

I'm not against it, but never just bought the equipment to do so. But to be sure, there were plenty of times I thought repitching the yeast from one batch to the next and thought it would be cool to do and I can see using a starter in this case.

It will probably be one of those times when I pitch some yeast, it doesn't do a thing, I'll go buy the stuff for cultivating a starter, then do it every time from then on.

 

[J187]

I'm not against it, but never just bought the equipment to do so. But to be sure, there were plenty of times I thought repitching the yeast from one batch to the next and thought it would be cool to do and I can see using a starter in this case.

It will probably be one of those times when I pitch some yeast, it doesn't do a thing, I'll go buy the stuff for cultivating a starter, then do it every time from then on.

Ironically, repitching yeast is one of the times you likely do not need a starter - lol. Unless of course you're not repitching right away. I love starters! No lag time at all, really good fermentation with great cleanup.

Hope you rehydrate your dry yeast!

 

[kombat]

Did you take a gravity measurement before throwing the yeast in?

No, but based on calculations in several books I've read, 100g of DME per liter of wort should get me right around 1.040, so that's the ratio I went with.

 

[J187]

No, but based on calculations in several books I've read, 100g of DME per liter of wort should get me right around 1.040, so that's the ratio I went with.

Yessir, you are good to go. No need to take gravity readings on starters. For one, DME is super reliable and as you say, with the proper ratio you'll get around 1.040. The other thing, it's not super important that it's 1.040.

 

[kombat]

I checked it when I got home tonight, all looks well. I can see tiny bubbles trickling up the sides of the flask, and when I give it a good shake, it foams up nicely. Looks like the yeast is happily chowing down! Thanks for the input, guys.

 

[Dynachrome]

You could pitch dry yeast also. I reconstitute my dry yeast a little bit before pitching. ...and I'm just crazy enough to have taken pictures.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/1994d.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/227/halloween2010013.jpg/