Is my cider going through MLF, and if so, can I bottle it?

[Kyle05STi]

I started my first batch of cider in Early November 2016 and racked it to secondary on Jan 1, 2017 with a measured gravity of .996. I did add a little bit of apple juice to take up some head space but it's been left alone since.

It's appearance today is basically the same as when I racked it:

There are lees on the bottom:

I'm getting ready to bottle it, but I noticed there's still some activity going on. It's cloudy (which is fine, I didn't add any pectin enzyme and I don't mind a cloudy cider) but there's also a fair amount of bubbling going on, I'm seeing "trails" from the bubbles as they rise, and there are bubbles in the neck.

Bubbles at neck:

Bubbles and "trails" which you can kind of see:

From searching on here and elsewhere, it seems like the cider may be undergoing MLF. If that's the case, should I leave in it secondary for another month or so? I do plan to let it bottle condition for 2-3 months, so I'm assuming it would continue in the bottles.

If it's not an issue to bottle it at this stage I'd like to. It's warming up and I'm going to be dedicating a lot more time to my other hobby - automotive stuff - for the next few weeks to get ready for when the weather breaks.

Or do the "trails" mean there's still a lot of yeast in suspension, and I need to continue the secondary fermentation?

Thanks!

 

[Maylar]

Bubbles could just be a change in weather (temperature or barometric pressure) causing outgassing of CO2 that's still in suspension. At 0.996 I'd say you're OK to bottle.

That said...

I had something similar happen to my cider this year. Finished fermenting in my cool basement, dropped perfectly clear with no bubbles. Moved it upstairs for racking to another vessel for aging and it started bubbling again. Little streams of tiny bubbles and at the neck like you're seeing. The warmer environment had roused the yeast and it started up again. This kept up for over a month - dunno whazzup wit dat. I finally racked it again and after a week all signs of bubbles are gone.

Whether it's MLF or not I have no clue. But I won't accept sediment in my bottles, so even if the ferment is done I want to see no signs of activity before bottling. Lees belong in the carboy, not in my bottles.

 

[Yooper]

If you didn't use campden (sulfites) in the cider, and it's a "real" cider, not bottled apple juice, it could be MLF. It's hard to say.

You definitely have some sort of sediment on the bottom, and my policy is to not bottle until a vessel has sat for at least 60 days with no new sediment (ie, no sediment at all after at least 60 days in a new vessel).

I would probably rack it in the next week or two, treat with sulfites, and wait to bottle.

 

[koenigwi]

What is MLF?

 

[Kyle05STi]

Bubbles could just be a change in weather (temperature or barometric pressure) causing outgassing of CO2 that's still in suspension. At 0.996 I'd say you're OK to bottle.

That said...

I had something similar happen to my cider this year. Finished fermenting in my cool basement, dropped perfectly clear with no bubbles. Moved it upstairs for racking to another vessel for aging and it started bubbling again. Little streams of tiny bubbles and at the neck like you're seeing. The warmer environment had roused the yeast and it started up again. This kept up for over a month - dunno whazzup wit dat. I finally racked it again and after a week all signs of bubbles are gone.

Whether it's MLF or not I have no clue. But I won't accept sediment in my bottles, so even if the ferment is done I want to see no signs of activity before bottling. Lees belong in the carboy, not in my bottles.

Temperature has been consistent but I can't say the same for the barometric pressure (no baraometer but the weather outside has been swinging). These bubbles/trails started a week or so after racking and haven't changed though.

I'm not sure what the gravity is right now, it was .996 when I racked but I did add about 32oz of new juice to fill up some headspace. Using champagne yeast so I expect it to ferment completely.

When you say you racked it again, I'm guessing you didn't add anything to top off headspace. Did you rack into a smaller vessel or at this stage is it unlikely to be an issue having more headspace?

Or should I just let it do its thing for a while longer and see if anything changes? SInce it hasn't changed for about 2 months I don't expect it to now, but who knows what will happen.

Thanks!

If you didn't use campden (sulfites) in the cider, and it's a "real" cider, not bottled apple juice, it could be MLF. It's hard to say.

You definitely have some sort of sediment on the bottom, and my policy is to not bottle until a vessel has sat for at least 60 days with no new sediment (ie, no sediment at all after at least 60 days in a new vessel).

I would probably rack it in the next week or two, treat with sulfites, and wait to bottle.

I did not use campden tablets, although I do have some. The must for the batch in question is fresh-pressed cider from a local orchard, pasteurized but no preservatives.

To make sure I'm understanding, you'd recommend racking to another carboy, then adding crushed campden tablets, and letting it sit for another 60 or so days before bottling?

That's easily doable, I'm moving another batch from primary to secondary today. I can sanitize another carboy (scooped 3 used ones up yesterday and I'm about to clean them now) and rack the batch in question into one of them. Should I add the campden tablets right away since I'll be introducing o2 and will end up with more headspace due to leaving a bit behind in the current carboy?

Or should I just let it do it's thing for a while longer and see what happens?

Thanks!

 

[Kyle05STi]

What is MLF?

Malolactic Fermentation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malolactic_fermentation

 

[Yooper]

Temperature has been consistent but I can't say the same for the barometric pressure (no baraometer but the weather outside has been swinging). These bubbles/trails started a week or so after racking and haven't changed though.

I'm not sure what the gravity is right now, it was .996 when I racked but I did add about 32oz of new juice to fill up some headspace. Using champagne yeast so I expect it to ferment completely.

When you say you racked it again, I'm guessing you didn't add anything to top off headspace. Did you rack into a smaller vessel or at this stage is it unlikely to be an issue having more headspace?

Or should I just let it do its thing for a while longer and see if anything changes? SInce it hasn't changed for about 2 months I don't expect it to now, but who knows what will happen.

Thanks!



I did not use campden tablets, although I do have some. The must for the batch in question is fresh-pressed cider from a local orchard, pasteurized but no preservatives.

To make sure I'm understanding, you'd recommend racking to another carboy, then adding crushed campden tablets, and letting it sit for another 60 or so days before bottling?

That's easily doable, I'm moving another batch from primary to secondary today. I can sanitize another carboy (scooped 3 used ones up yesterday and I'm about to clean them now) and rack the batch in question into one of them. Should I add the campden tablets right away since I'll be introducing o2 and will end up with more headspace due to leaving a bit behind in the current carboy?

Or should I just let it do it's thing for a while longer and see what happens?

Thanks!

I would definitely crush 1 campden tablet per gallon, dissolve in some water and put that into a new carboy and rack into that. Let it sit for 60 days, and if there is no new sediment, it can most likely be bottled. I'd wait until it was clear and there was no sediment at all, because I prefer no sediment in my bottles but if you don't mind it, then you may want to go ahead and bottle then.

At that point, the MLF (if that's what's going on) will be done, or halted by the campden, and fermentation will be long finished.

I'd not top up with juice, as then fermentation will restart and you'll have to rack again in 60 days. And then top off, and fermentation will restart, etc. Top up with some white wine if you don't have any finished cider (and I assume you don't).

 

[MarkKF]

I had something similar happen to my cider this year. Finished fermenting in my cool basement, dropped perfectly clear with no bubbles. Moved it upstairs for racking to another vessel for aging and it started bubbling again. Little streams of tiny bubbles and at the neck like you're seeing. The warmer environment had roused the yeast and it started up again. This kept up for over a month - dunno whazzup wit dat.

Yeah I had one finished, cleared and sat for months. Then summer rolled around and it clouded up and the little bubbles appeared. It went on for quite some time then stopped and cleared again. It was dry but tasted fantastic!

 

[Scrumpy!]

MLF is not going to happen if your temp is much below 60 deg. In my experience, MLF forms distinctly different lees than yeast. Bacteria whether malolacitc or acetobacter create a gel like body though ML in my experience sinks to the bottom instead of hanging in suspension like a vinegar mother. If you measured total acidity before your fermentation got underway, you could measure it again and if MLF has taken place, the TA will have dropped. Based on the cloudy cider and the bubbles, I suspect your yeast woke up hungry when you put in 32 oz of fresh juice.

Accurate measurement of SG toward the end of fermentation is confounded by CO2 in solution and the alcohol content. Just to be sure, you should test your hydrometer against distilled water at the temperature the hydrometer is certified for. It should be exactly 1.000. When measuring SG, you must either get the cider to near the calibration temp of the hydrometer or use the formula to correct for temperature. Also you should be sure you have completely degassed you sample before measuring SG (or pH and total acidity). I put 200 ml of cider in a pyrex measuring cup then put that in a pan with water to the same level as the cider in the measuring cup. I bring the water to a boil which lowers the saturation point of CO2 and drives off much of the alcohol. Then I agitate it with an immersion blender for a minute to totally degass it. After letting it cool, I finally put the hydrometer in.

The best thing when you are uncertain about the status of your fermentation is to give it more time.

 

[Kyle05STi]

I'm at a pretty steady 64-65* in the basement.

I did as Yooper and Mayler suggested and racked to another carboy to see if any new sediment drops. Gravity measured about .998 - up from .996 when I transferred it to secondary - but the 32 oz of must I added on 1/1/2017 measured at 1.048. There very well may be some slow fermentation going on.

It tasted better when I moved it from primary to secondary. It wasn't awful, but it seemed more harsh and was very tart (without sweetness to balance it). I like very dry ciders, Ace Joker and Virtue Michigan Brut style, but this may need something when it comes time to bottle. I'll taste again in 60 days to see what's changed.

I crushed 5 campden tablets and dissolved them in 1 cup of purified water from an unopened container, then racked the cider on top of that. We'll see what happens. The carboy had and extremely small amount of deposits I couldn't remove no matter what I tried - soap, Sparkle Brite, vinegar, and Star San (separately of course). The Sparkle Brite and brush took care of most of it but there's a few spots where you could still see a little bit with the white carboy brush behind it. I'm guessing it won't be an issue as it was cleaned and sanitized multiple times.

Off topic for this thread, but I also moved my second batch (started 1/2/2017) to secondary yesterday and it couldn't be more different. It's as clear as it'll get and it measured right about 1.000 - maybe a little less as I didn't fully degass the sample. I spun the hydrometer a few times and it read a little lower each time.

I used organic apple juice from Aldi with a combined OG of 1.046 for this batch, as opposed to the fresh-pressed cider from a local orchard for the first. I'm guessing the store-bought clear juice has a lot to do with why the cider is so clear. Everything else was equal between these ferments aside from the must.

Batch #2:

Left - Batch #1, Right - Batch #2, both after racking:

 

[Scrumpy!]

Your cider looks healthy.

Campden tablets or more generally sulfite does not kill yeast. It inhibits yeast but only for a while. It does kill bacteria and reduces or prevents oxidation which is its main function.

If your cider is somewhat acid, fermenting it to dryness is very likely to produce a very sour beverage. You can offset this by sweetening which has the effect of turning sour cider into a semi-dry beverage with a bit of snap to it. Consider that Coke is about as acid as a lemon but so sweet you don't realize how acid it is unless you run your tongue over your teeth and they feel a little rough due to some of the enamel being etched. No cider that I have ever had is anywhere near the acidity of Coke. A Brazilian friend of mine told me that her father is a plumber and he sometimes uses Coke to unclog drains back home. Kind of gives me the creeps.

Anyway, patience is the best medicine here. Splenda is the easiest and least noticeable way to sweeten your dry cider. Xylitol loosens some peoples bowels so if you use that, consider putting a liter of Coke beside your toilet.