Is it too bad if I shake the fermentation?

[Yooper]

Granted, these were lab results, not garage brewing results. And the DO level of 25 ppm is incomparable to the 4-5 that could be had by shaking, IF there were oxygen in the headspace of a fermenting carboy. BUT... the notion that delayed introduction of oxygen may be beneficial in higher gravity fermentation really cannot be so easily dismissed. And when brewing a big ol' Belgian and looking for full attenuation, I'll use every trick I can.

Absolutely, and I think that's important to note.

The key there though is actually oxygenating, and "higher gravity fermentation". I don't think swirling the fermenter at day 5 counts, though, as either "higher gravity fermentation" or "oxygenation", since it's in a closed container and we don't know if this is indeed a higher gravity beer. Also, not that those words are "MAY be beneficial". Also, they say they reach a quicker attenuation, and not necessarily a LOWER attenuation! Even in this case, there are no absolutes.

 

[Pilgarlic]

Yes, Yooper, I used the "may" advisedly. I posted the quote not to prove anything at all, but only as a counterpoint to the glib responses that so often characterize defense of dogma.

I have added pure O2 to BIG Belgians at 12-18 hours with no apparent ill-effects, and who knows what benefit (no control for comparison). I'll continue to do so, because it makes sense to me that the yeast, which would otherwise turn to anaerobic fermentation in an oxygen-depleted environment will, with an additional shot of O2, continue to reproduce.

 

[pabloj13]

Yes, Yooper, I used the "may" advisedly. I posted the quote not to prove anything at all, but only as a counterpoint to the glib responses that so often characterize defense of dogma.

I have added pure O2 to BIG Belgians at 12-18 hours with no apparent ill-effects, and who knows what benefit (no control for comparison). I'll continue to do so, because it makes sense to me that the yeast, which would otherwise turn to anaerobic fermentation in an oxygen-depleted environment will, with an additional shot of O2, continue to reproduce.

Sure, but that is pretty clearly not what the OP was talking about. If you started a thread describing the above, I highly doubt you'd get glib responses in defense of dogma. That seems pretty well thought out and rational.

 

[Gear101]

Let me get some coffee this morning. I have a question on these subject.

 

[kombat]

I don't see how swirling early in the fermentation would make any difference. In my experience, during the first few days of fermentation, the beer is swirling itself just fine, with the action of the escaping CO2 gasses causing the beer to churn itself, all on its own. Everything is already being mixed quite well just from the internal currents of the yeast doing its thing.

Later on, after fermentation has finished, I suppose swirling might potentially rouse the dormant yeast to eke out another point of gravity, but the OP was asking about swirling in those first few days, not later.

 

[patthebrewer]

No it won't hurt it done it many many times(back in my carboy days)...some times helps to rouse yeast that settled out to soon. I can't do it now though unless I want to give myself a heart attack or spend some time a the chiropractors.

 

[Gear101]

The question I have is, how is oxygen getting into all the fermenters and people are not getting riddled with infection? When my beer fermenting, the internal pressures of the fermenter is a lot higher than the outside atmosphere, so I never get any oxygen inside my ferms. No madder what I do. When thinking about it that would really be impossible, unless you are open fermenting or have some unwanted hole in the ferm, it should be a sealed system. Even when I move the beer to keg, after hitting FG, just a little movement makes the pressure high enough to push CO2 out the lock. So I don’t see how any oxygen is getting into everyone’s systems.

 

[Pilgarlic]

When I add oxygen to a fermentor I do it with an O2 tank, scintered stone and a wand.

 

[Yooper]

The question I have is, how is oxygen getting into all the fermenters and people are not getting riddled with infection? When my beer fermenting, the internal pressures of the fermenter is a lot higher than the outside atmosphere, so I never get any oxygen inside my ferms. No madder what I do. When thinking about it that would really be impossible, unless you are open fermenting or have some unwanted hole in the ferm, it should be a sealed system. Even when I move the beer to keg, after hitting FG, just a little movement makes the pressure high enough to push CO2 out the lock. So I don’t see how any oxygen is getting into everyone’s systems.

That would be true of a closed system, but in some cases the lid just doesn't fit 100% airtight. (That's the subject of another thread- "why isn't my airlock bubbling?" ). During primary, enough co2 is produced that you don't even need a lid, really. But once fermentation slows down, then oxidation could become a risk I guess.

My biggest concern with swirling the fermenter is just that it's not necessary, and I'd like to keep that krausen ring out of the beer. I'm pretty careful to leave it stuck to the sides of the fermenter when I rack out of it, and when I harvest the yeast.

I think a gentle swirling would be ok and not harmful, but certainly not necessary for most beers.

Oxygenation for big beers at 12-24 hours is definitely a well-regarded practice. Also, for wines and meads.

 

[patthebrewer]

My biggest concern with swirling the fermenter is just that it's not necessary, and I'd like to keep that krausen ring out of the beer. I'm pretty careful to leave it stuck to the sides of the fermenter when I rack out of it, and when I harvest the yeast.

Absolutely true!!.....Krausen is a german word, and it roughly translates to "Junky Crap" Probably a good idea to keep as much "Junky Crap" out of your beer as possible:cross:

 

[user 144938]

Ok, what I was wondering was if swirling a little my carboy in the third day of fermentation with the airlock on will affect my beer? I oxygenated the wort well before the fermentation and the airlock was bubbling just a little at the third day so I was wondering that a soft swirl will help in any way. Not a shake or anything like that. Also I don't have almost any amount of krausen. At least not this time, not like when I brewed stout!

 

[pabloj13]

Ok, what I was wondering was if swirling a little my carboy in the third day of fermentation with the airlock on will affect my beer? I oxygenated the wort well before the fermentation and the airlock was bubbling just a little at the third day so I was wondering that a soft swirl will help in any way. Not a shake or anything like that. Also I don't have almost any amount of krausen. At least not this time, not like when I brewed stout!

I think that's been covered. I wouldn't waste your time. No benefit, some potential for damaging the beer.

 

[Varmintman]

Ok, what I was wondering was if swirling a little my carboy in the third day of fermentation with the airlock on will affect my beer? I oxygenated the wort well before the fermentation and the airlock was bubbling just a little at the third day so I was wondering that a soft swirl will help in any way. Not a shake or anything like that. Also I don't have almost any amount of krausen. At least not this time, not like when I brewed stout!

Best thing to do is keep it dark for 2 or 3 weeks and then work on a pipe line so you are not tempted to mess with the beer

A pipe line is a wonderful thing. Once you get a good supply of beer built up you can ferment longer and bottle condition longer and both of those things will create a better beer. I am just finishing a case that I bottled on Halloween and it is great. And I got 10 or 12 cases bottled with 2 fermenter's full waiting to bottle.

Patience grasshopper and you will get beer

 

[ResumeMan]

What on earth would make swirling help you get a better attenuation, providing that your pitch rates were proper and your wort was well oxygenated? What would you be basing this information off of?

It is a standard technique (don't have a cite handy but I think most of the books mention it). The point is to get any early-flocculating yeast off the bottom of the fermenter and back into suspension. It's very common, I do it often. And I've never dropped anything into my fermenter doing it.

 

[user 144938]

So, three weeks in the primary? really? then im kegging. still three weeks? I just want to know to do it.

 

[pabloj13]

It is a standard technique (don't have a cite handy but I think most of the books mention it). The point is to get any early-flocculating yeast off the bottom of the fermenter and back into suspension. It's very common, I do it often. And I've never dropped anything into my fermenter doing it.

I think most of the time it is mentioned in the context of a stalled fermentation in combination with slightly raising temp. Most standard fermentations do not require this step at all.

 

[Varmintman]

So, three weeks in the primary? really? then im kegging. still three weeks? I just want to know to do it.

Yup 2 or 3 weeks is common. The yeast even though it does not look like they are doing anything are in there busy cleaning up the mess they made in the beer. If you bottle it is three weeks at 70 on average and not really much shorter time kegging. You can force carb the beer in the keg but it still might taste green for awhile. Just letting the keg sit for a couple weeks cold will improve your beer tons.

LOL Heck do not worry about asking questions. We all started the same way at some point and we all got help from others.

 

[DonLiguori]

Never stuck my finger in a pencil sharpener but I know my nose picking will hampered if I do.

False. I feel a well-sharpened and honed finger would do wonders for my seek-and-destroy missions nose-side.

But shaking/swirling the fermentor a few days into the fermentation isn't a bad thing. If the fermentation hasn't sky-rocketed, there will still be some O2 in the head-space that you can work into the depleting/depleted wort. But once that headspace is filled with CO2, all you're going to do is cause the fusel oils and trub scum stuck to the side to fall back into your beer, which is not exactly a good thing. Personally, I'm in the habit of skimming it off at peak fermentation and just getting it the heck away from my beer.

 

[bottlebomber]

It is a standard technique (don't have a cite handy but I think most of the books mention it). The point is to get any early-flocculating yeast off the bottom of the fermenter and back into suspension. It's very common, I do it often. And I've never dropped anything into my fermenter doing it.

Books that were written in the 90's maybe.. Healthy yeast doesn't just drop out unless you've screwed up somewhere.

 

[helibrewer]

It's called rousing and there is no harm in it at all. Having spent some time with Shea Comfort ( www.yeastwhisperer.com) he is a proponent of this technique, in fact he rouses daily. It is common practice in winemaking and there is no reason to not carry it over into brewing. Yeast do their best work in suspension...it's the reason we use stir plates with starters. I have read a couple of research articles that support the continuous movement of yeast during fermentation...think giant stir plate.

You need to be smart....good sanitation and gentle stirring, but research shows the effects are positive.

 

[JimTheHick]

Wow. Quite the discussion ive missed over the past week.

Threads like these are why I'm letting my premium membership expire.

Burden of proof cuts both ways, and when a new
Person asks for advice they are getting tacit knowledge from other homebrewers, nothing more. We don't present credentials or get paid consulting fees. You say I have to provide scientific evidence that a little swirl is better for the beer and I say you need to provide evidence that a swirl is bad. And the debate goes on into futility. If the fermenting chamber isn't being opened there is no chance to drop anything in. Nor does a swirl require an infection-laden paddle being stuck into the beer.

I provided my advice based upon swirling a batch or two with good results (increased fermentation after a day and increased clearing of the beer), and the lab-based knowledge that unicellular organism growing in suspension like a little shakey-shakey.

Cheers!

--JimTheHick, PhD, Beer Novice

 

[bottlebomber]

Wow. Quite the discussion ive missed over the past week.

Threads like these are why I'm letting my premium membership expire.

I agree that this thread is sour, but I don't understand what that has to do with your premium membership. I pay to contribute to this forum, which has helped probably millions of gallons of beer be better than they would have. I don't expect people to agree on every issue. That would be weird.

 

[JimTheHick]

Books that were written in the 90's maybe.. Healthy yeast doesn't just drop out unless you've screwed up somewhere.

This goes past agree/disagree. And it's misleading for the OP. he wants advice about his situation, and if he's asking a question like this it likely means something might be sub-optimal.

The point I'm making is that too many threads deviate wildly from providing an OP guidance on what has worked for people and into these off-topic sniping debates.

So, it has everything to do with my membership. And rather than quietly never come back, I'll leave some feedback at the end of a thread that perfectly sums it up.

 

[bottlebomber]

This goes past agree/disagree. And it's misleading for the OP. he wants advice about his situation, and if he's asking a question like this it likely means something might be sub-optimal.

The point I'm making is that too many threads deviate wildly from providing an OP guidance on what has worked for people and into these off-topic sniping debates.

So, it has everything to do with my membership. And rather than quietly never come back, I'll leave some feedback at the end of a thread that perfectly sums it up.

He asked for advice, and got it from several experienced brewers and a forum moderator. There's nothing in the OP that indicated that there was something subpar about his fermentation, he simply asked if swirling around his carboy was good practice. I think you read into it too much. My comment that you quoted was sound advice as well. If you provide healthy yeast with good conditions you don't need to do anything extra to facilitate a healthy fermentation, period. Now if something was wrong, there are a number of things you could try to do to fix the problem, but that would be off topic, because that's not what the OP was asking about. If this thread offends you I can understand your wanting to leave though, because this was pretty tame in the world of online disagreements. I think most people would prefer that you leave quietly rather than making an exhibition out of it.