Is it just me or are bottled conditioned Homebrew better than kegged?

[duncan_disorderly]

Is kegged beer less oxidised than bottled?

I'd say sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on methods and equipment. I had a bottled beer judged by a brewery QA person and the notes said there was no oxidation. I don't work that hard at avoiding oxidation. I'm careful obviously. Fermentation in the bottle will reduce oxygen. Kegging has to be done well cos any oxygen introduced is going to stick around, I think.

So I'm a bit confused about this tbh.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

There are styles that will benefit from one method or the other. That said, you can perfectly do any style with any method of packaging

 

[Pablo 54]

1. Kegging for me on all of my lagers since I attempt to keep as much O2 out as possible. I bottled 1 lager in my life and 8 weeks later, I had a nice, crystal clear beer that tasted like cough syrup.
2. Keg condition some cream ales and hefes. Nice to be able to plug in a keg that is pretty much all carbed up "naturally". I've not had any discernable issues with staling.
3. Bottle some cream ales and hefes. This is my preferred way of packaging my hefe's since I open ferment that style.

How I prime the bottles and keg (for conditioned) makes a difference. I use either DME or sugar. The DME leaves a slight, malty "punch" whereas the sugar seems to be undetectable. That is me though.

 

[Beermeister32]

I both keg and bottle. Kegs are great for a full 16 oz crystal clear pint. Bottles are great for putting up different batches you only drink once in a while.

One thing to add about bottles is always having to pour off until you hit the dregs. Always sad as a beer lover to lose that last ounce in the bottle. Also you will frequently get stray yeast in the beer even if you decant properly.

Kegs are great - always a crystal clear pour!

 

[JohnDBrewer]

I 99% keg. Nice thing about bottling though is it lasts longer than kegs. I have bottles of RIS, Barley wine, Belgian strong and such that are from 2016 and up, when that keg is long gone.

 

[bwible]

Brulosophy did this experiment:
“I struggle with the idea the carbonation from bottle conditioning produces a perceptibly different character than force carbonation– CO2 is CO2 regardless of the source. With increased curiosity, I shelved my hatred of the bottling process for the sake of learning and decided it was time to put this to the test!”
https://brulosophy.com/2016/09/26/c...n-vs-bottle-conditioning-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As mentioned above, natural vs force carbonation is an old debate in the UK thanks to CAMRA.

In turn that means you do get opportunities to try the same commercial beer in different formats - even eg cask-conditioned lager (which can be great, although no doubt the LODO mob would disagree). I've had different beers that were best in each of can, cask, keg and bottle. It just depends on the style, and talking about this kind of stuff without reference to style is meaningless.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Brulosophy did this experiment:

I wonder if they did anything to purge CO2 from the bottles. The process they used was to transfer the beer into a keg first and fill bottles with the flat beer that has priming sugar. They then filled the bottles with a beergun.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread so if I repeat anyone's ideas, I'm sorry.

Reasons why bottle conditioned portions of a batch can taste better:

1. Kegging process introduces some oxygen. It's not that the bottling process doesn't, but the refermentation scavenges the oxygen in the bottle.
2. The new yeast activity acts a little like krausening and can help cleanup some fermentation induced flaws like diacetyl and acetaldehyde.
3. Conditioning time. You may be leaving the bottles alone for 2 or more weeks allowing for a more full carbonation and particle settling while burst carbing the keg quickly and to some unreliable level.

 

[Beermeister32]

One thing about bottling - early on, I would bottle using standard 12 ounce bottles. I’ve changed.

Today when I bottle, use the larger 16.9 ounce/500 ml bottles exclusively, either flip top bomber style brown, or the Weihenstephaner type bottles which I find are a little thicker than others.

When you pour a full pint, a 12 ounce bottle does not fill a standard pint glass and you are more inclined to get dregs in your glass, a real bummer.

A 16.9 ounce bottle is darned near perfect. It fills a 16 ounce glass nicely and leaves the remaining ounce or so of murk at the bottom of the bottle, not in your glass.

Prost!

 

[soccerdad]

I can't explain why this is, but 2 taste precedents rule my life.
More unexplainable quirks than precedents.
1) with commercial beers I always (at least 99% of the time) examine the draft list first. If there is nothing there I like or want to try, I'll order a bottle.
2) with.my own beer I am highly critical of either draft pours or bottle pours ... But invariably when it is just right - carbed right, conditioned right, cleared right, tastes great - the keg burps or it's the last bottle.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Reasons why bottle conditioned portions of a batch can taste better:

The bubbles are different, in the same way as champagne has different sized bubbles to Coke although not as extreme as that difference. Given time, bubble size may equalise, but over the typical drinking period, natural carbonation will typically have smaller bubbles than force carbonation and that leads to a different delivery of flavour compounds to your mouth.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

I don't find any difference between keg and bottle beer if both are conditioned properly including especially a correct level of carbonation. I mostly keg. I have bottled. Sometimes I miscalculate and I have never had a bottle bomb but I have had some that were inconveniently overcarbonated and very messy to open. If a keg is overcarbed, easy enough to fix. Just relieve the pressure daily until you get a good pour, then hook up the gas and properly regulate it. I also like being able to pull just a small glass or a big glass or a giant stein, instead of having to drink in 12oz or 16oz or 22oz increments.

I suppose in theory the priming sugar could change a beer's balance, adding alcohol and reducing body, but I can't tell the difference. It's just not enough sugar.

I prefer kegging but not because the beer tastes any different. It is so I can easily correct dissolved CO2 levels, dispense freely by any amount, and because it is easier (for me) and less messy. (for me) I can also see advantages in bottling. Portability, share-ability. Keeping 10 different recipes in one fridge. No need for tanks and regulators and stuff, The best way forward for those who are able to put together a kegging setup is of course to keg some or most, and bottle some, too. Properly done, I doubt if many guys can tell the difference in taste, though. YMMV.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

The bubbles are different, in the same way as champagne has different sized bubbles to Coke although not as extreme as that difference. Given time, bubble size may equalise, but over the typical drinking period, natural carbonation will typically have smaller bubbles than force carbonation and that leads to a different delivery of flavour compounds to your mouth.

That is interesting, and I do not doubt that you are correct. But I don't notice the difference with my perhaps not so sophisticated or discriminating palate. However, it is another detail to agonize over, and for many of us that is half the fun of brewing, I think.

 

[TestTickle]

Properly done, I doubt if many guys can tell the difference in taste, though. YMMV.

I tend to agree with this statement as well as a couple earlier regarding patience.

When I first started kegging, I also felt that maybe my bottled beer was slightly better than my kegged beer. The problem was that I was listening too much to keggers who were "grain to glass" in two weeks. I soon learned that even in kegs, the beer benefits from some time to condition.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

The difference between cask and keg is pretty obvious. That's partly the level of carbonation, but also the difference in the carbonation. Cask has a smooth carbonation, part of its appeal. I find bottled is closer to that than keg.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

I tend to agree with this statement as well as a couple earlier regarding patience.

When I first started kegging, I also felt that maybe my bottled beer was slightly better than my kegged beer. The problem was that I was listening too much to keggers who were "grain to glass" in two weeks. I soon learned that even in kegs, the beer benefits from some time to condition.

Absolutely! I have 4 kegs in rotation now, and a keg lasts me a month or a bit less. So it is conditioning for about 3 months, then it goes in the kegerator to chill when the on-tap keg is down to about 1/3 judged by the feel of the keg when lifting it. I have lately started releasing the pressure after a couple days chilling, then again the next day and then the next if there is still a lot of pressure. When it is time to change kegs, it is usually in the ballpark. I tend to overcarb my kegs and maybe I should be more systematic about that, but I do it so if there is a leak, it takes longer to flatten the beer and for expansion and contraction to bring air into the keg. Also to make sure that when the keg is chilled there is still positive pressure in the keg.

Anyway when I first started kegging of course I began with just one keg. Three weeks after brew day it was on tap. Good, maybe a few rough edges. Just some faintly troubling off tastes, but still good. When I added a couple of kegs to the rotation I was at first concerned about storing it too long at room temperature but the results were very pleasing. This is subjective, of course, but that is my impression, that a couple of extra months on the floor improve a beer whether it is in keg or bottle, even if it isn't a super duper deluxe imperial.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread so if I repeat anyone's ideas, I'm sorry.

Reasons why bottle conditioned portions of a batch can taste better:

1. Kegging process introduces some oxygen. It's not that the bottling process doesn't, but the refermentation scavenges the oxygen in the bottle.
2. The new yeast activity acts a little like krausening and can help cleanup some fermentation induced flaws like diacetyl and acetaldehyde.
3. Conditioning time. You may be leaving the bottles alone for 2 or more weeks allowing for a more full carbonation and particle settling while burst carbing the keg quickly and to some unreliable level.

On your second point, you may have something there. It is logical, anyway. I never see any krausen in my bottles, but that doesn't mean that no fermentation related cleanup is occurring. I don't taste the difference but that doesn't mean it isn't there. A more discriminating critic than me might notice the difference, I don't know, but I won't discount the possibility.

As for introducing oxygen when kegging, not necessarily. I fully purge my kegs by filling to the top with star san solution, then forcing it out with CO2, resulting in a completely purged keg with a slight positive pressure for safe storage until kegging day. Then for the beer transfer I use a closed loop. Beer flows from fermenter into the keg. CO2 flows from keg into fermenter. Pressure stays equalized, gravity does all the work, no air gets in anywhere. And it isn't any great hardship to do it that way.

There is really no reason why a keg that doesn't leak can't be stored / conditioned for months. I overcarb a bit, but it is easy to correct once the keg is chilled to serving temp and waiting its turn to be tapped. OTOH, if priming is miscalculated and bottles are overcarbed, you are just stuck with it that way. You can't gradually bleed off gas over several days like you can with a keg. I have made some real geysers and it is sad to see beer lost. Then again it is possible to under carb. Not a major tragedy as long as there is some CO2, but if you want it perfect, you could be out of luck. A few days with a couple extra pounds of CO2 pressure on the keg and you can make it right. Careful calculation should give you perfect bottle priming, but sometimes stuff happens.

Which all reminds me, my latest bottles have been over three weeks conditioning. I should put one in the fridge for a few days and see how it is coming along.

 

[Beermeister32]

Check out the picture of the neck of that bottle I posted. You can see a bit of a bottle/conditioning fermentation ring. Good for cleaning up O2 I think, that Pilsner was fantastic. I need to brew some more.

 

[BrewChem]

It depends on the astrological centering surrounding your carbonation process… lower ABV ales are best keg carbonated during the two weeks surrounding the lunar apogee with a waning crescent being optimum if the IBUs run above 53. Higher ABV ales should be bottled with their priming sugar when the moon reaches perigee. Lagers are a different story completely and are not dependent solely on the lunar cycles. For Lager carbonation one must also observe oceanic cycles … keg on the neap ride and bottle condition on the first spring tide following the vernal equinox for best results.

 

[Pablo 54]

On your second point, you may have something there. It is logical, anyway. I never see any krausen in my bottles, but that doesn't mean that no fermentation related cleanup is occurring. I don't taste the difference but that doesn't mean it isn't there. A more discriminating critic than me might notice the difference, I don't know, but I won't discount the possibility.

As for introducing oxygen when kegging, not necessarily. I fully purge my kegs by filling to the top with star san solution, then forcing it out with CO2, resulting in a completely purged keg with a slight positive pressure for safe storage until kegging day. Then for the beer transfer I use a closed loop. Beer flows from fermenter into the keg. CO2 flows from keg into fermenter. Pressure stays equalized, gravity does all the work, no air gets in anywhere. And it isn't any great hardship to do it that way.

There is really no reason why a keg that doesn't leak can't be stored / conditioned for months. I overcarb a bit, but it is easy to correct once the keg is chilled to serving temp and waiting its turn to be tapped. OTOH, if priming is miscalculated and bottles are overcarbed, you are just stuck with it that way. You can't gradually bleed off gas over several days like you can with a keg. I have made some real geysers and it is sad to see beer lost. Then again it is possible to under carb. Not a major tragedy as long as there is some CO2, but if you want it perfect, you could be out of luck. A few days with a couple extra pounds of CO2 pressure on the keg and you can make it right. Careful calculation should give you perfect bottle priming, but sometimes stuff happens.

Which all reminds me, my latest bottles have been over three weeks conditioning. I should put one in the fridge for a few days and see how it is coming along.

GrowleyMonster...I pretty much do it identical to what you just explained. Lagers get a closed transfer into a fully purged 5 gallon keg. Ales go into a 3 gallon keg, most times I'll put in 1.5 ounces of sugar to clean up the O2 and give me a head start on carbing.

 

[Biggz1313]

Your post will generate 45,252,489 different responses.
Kegging is fine. I've consumed tons of it. You're free from being bombarded with over-ripe vegetables and/or fruit since you said "anecdotally."
I bottle because it's easy and cheap and I'm great with the product. Once I learned how to process the flip-tops before, during and after use, I became less and less interested in kegging. I do have a brother though who would benefit from kegging. I fancy that I would make the beer, he would pay cost for it and then he could do the rest. He'd like four-five types on hand at once and he has a wet bar.
I'm 100% satisfied with the bottled and I wish all those who keg the "bestest" best of the best.

Would you care to elaborate on or point me in the direction of a thread/article/website that explains how to "process" the fliptops? I recently started using them and now I'm concerned there's something I should be doing that I'm not. Any guidance would be extremely appreciated!

 

[bracconiere]

@Sammy86 i liked the force carbed kegged stuff better.... it had better head, and was a cleaner, almost TOO clean, taste. (i'm used to, i guess what they'd call, open fermented flavors)

 

[Pablo 54]

Would you care to elaborate on or point me in the direction of a thread/article/website that explains how to "process" the fliptops? I recently started using them and now I'm concerned there's something I should be doing that I'm not. Any guidance would be extremely appreciated!

I can't speak for davidabcd but for me, processing the "fliptops" is:

1. Buy and consume the commercial beer, for me that is Grolsch.
2. Soak the bottles in my scrub sink in some PBW or Oxiclean (no scent) overnight - gets rid of the labels.
3. Rinse.
4. Rinse again with StarSan using the bottle washer.
5. Rub a little bit of keg lube on the rubber stopper part.
6. Store until I need them.

Bottle as normal. I've had some of the bottles for almost 2 years and use them about every 4 months or so.

 

[davidabcd]

Would you care to elaborate on or point me in the direction of a thread/article/website that explains how to "process" the fliptops? I recently started using them and now I'm concerned there's something I should be doing that I'm not. Any guidance would be extremely appreciated!

Once they're clean--no debris, no weird or unidentifiable streaks, spots, marks, etc.--you keep them that way. Once a beer is emptied after being bottled, rinse immediately. 1/3 hot water, finger in hole, shake well, rinse. Dishwasher but that's more for giving it a spot to drip dry. Store.
Bottling day: a light soap/light bleach/bottle brush/rinse/sanitizer. Forty bottles (500ml/16.9oz) should take less than a half hour. Drip dry them on the bottom dishwasher rack. I put mine rack on a towel on the stove. Milk crates are extremely useful.
For tough, crusty bottles, there is no easy way. I put a tsp of OxyClean in the bottle, fill half way and shake them periodically until the debris is loose.
Toughest part is getting a full lineup of bottles the way you want them. I have 230 useable fliptops.
I can be more specific. PM if you need to.
I should mention that the bottle rinse device (don't remember the technical term) you hook up to the faucet is vital.

 

[Sammy86]

@Sammy86 i liked the force carbed kegged stuff better.... it had better head, and was a cleaner, almost TOO clean, taste. (i'm used to, i guess what they'd call, open fermented flavors)

I dunno man, i really like my bottled conditioned beers now...ive been putting your crystal malt to work and the bottled conditioned beers brings out that roastiness that I'm just digging!

Not to say that the kegged ones aren't delicious too...like the young guns are saying these days...it just hits different LoL

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Would you care to elaborate on or point me in the direction of a thread/article/website that explains how to "process" the fliptops? I recently started using them and now I'm concerned there's something I should be doing that I'm not. Any guidance would be extremely appreciated!

What they said, except be sure to sanitize both the ceramic or plastic top, and also the rubber washer. You can buy new washers if some of yours start to get dried out or crackly looking. They are cheap. If you get the genuine EZ-Cap brand bottles,
https://www.amazon.com/EZ-Cap-Bottl...1&sprefix=ez-cap+bottles+16+oz,aps,108&sr=8-8you can use crown caps OR use the swing top. Or both, the crown caps to bottle, and the flippy tops for overnight storage of a half emptied bottle. Not a big deal, right? Except if you like 32 ouncers. I find a 16 ounce bottle just right to go with my supper because I am used to 16 oz glasses of kegged beer. However I do have some 32 ounce EZ-Cap flip top bottles. Just right for sharing with Mrs. Monster but she doesn't often drink beer.

 

[davidabcd]

sanitize both the ceramic or plastic top, and also the rubber washer.

Very true.
About gaskets, I was getting dark-red ones which had a bit of play. Now all that's being sold are the pink, ridiculously rigid gaskets from LD Carlson. Any leads on the good ones?

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Very true.
About gaskets, I was getting dark-red ones which had a bit of play. Now all that's being sold are the pink, ridiculously rigid gaskets from LD Carlson. Any leads on the good ones?

Try this Amazon search. Looks like the old fashioned ones are still available.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=flip+top...bottle+gas,aps,123&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_24

 

[El Whedo]

I just got these a few weeks ago, and I really like them.

https://www.amazon.com/Silicone-Gas...&pd_rd_wg=Sp1K7&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_atf_m
I have four different types of swing top bottles and they work excellent (better than original) on three, and decent on the fourth.

 

[balrog]

@davidabcd I had some issue with orange stiff elastomer gaskets. They would "set" and my apfelwein was flat because of leakage. Maybe not as bad as a Pampers leakage, but still bad. I got some red rubber ones and love them.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0064OE7SC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[davidabcd]

some red rubber ones and love them.

I can't find those anymore if we're talking about the same product (JD Carlson). I bet a good sub is out there; I just don't know where. I found one that was the correct consistency but almost half the thickness of normal but it wasn't thick enough and I couldn't fit two on the porcelain top.
I'll take help anywhere I can get it.
Thanks.

 

[davidabcd]

Totally, totally, totally appreciate the leads. I've been bummed for a while about JD Carlson switching to garbage gaskets. I even told them. They tried to PR me to death. Ugh.

 

[Biggz1313]

Once they're clean--no debris, no weird or unidentifiable streaks, spots, marks, etc.--you keep them that way. Once a beer is emptied after being bottled, rinse immediately. 1/3 hot water, finger in hole, shake well, rinse. Dishwasher but that's more for giving it a spot to drip dry. Store.
Bottling day: a light soap/light bleach/bottle brush/rinse/sanitizer. Forty bottles (500ml/16.9oz) should take less than a half hour. Drip dry them on the bottom dishwasher rack. I put mine rack on a towel on the stove. Milk crates are extremely useful.
For tough, crusty bottles, there is no easy way. I put a tsp of OxyClean in the bottle, fill half way and shake them periodically until the debris is loose.
Toughest part is getting a full lineup of bottles the way you want them. I have 230 useable fliptops.
I can be more specific. PM if you need to.
I should mention that the bottle rinse device (don't remember the technical term) you hook up to the faucet is vital.

Awesome, thanks so much! I'm pretty much doing all this already so I can breath a sigh of relief. I do the immediate rinse out after pouring a beer and then store upside down until bottling day. Bottling day I'll do another quick rinse with hot water and hit it with the bottle brush, then I have the star san fountain thingy that blasts starsan into the bottle before actually filling with beer. I do spray the gasket and cap with starsan but I may start paying slightly more attention to that moving forward. Appreciate the time you took to write that out. Cheers!

 

[Biggz1313]

I can't speak for davidabcd but for me, processing the "fliptops" is:

1. Buy and consume the commercial beer, for me that is Grolsch.
2. Soak the bottles in my scrub sink in some PBW or Oxiclean (no scent) overnight - gets rid of the labels.
3. Rinse.
4. Rinse again with StarSan using the bottle washer.
5. Rub a little bit of keg lube on the rubber stopper part.
6. Store until I need them.

Bottle as normal. I've had some of the bottles for almost 2 years and use them about every 4 months or so.

Perfect this is almost identical to what I'm doing. Thanks for the reply!

 

[davidabcd]

do spray the gasket and cap

I put the gaskets in starsan for bottling. With the prepped bottle, I use the vinator (whatever it's called) then dip the top in the liquid then a gasket and then to the dish rack. Might eliminate a bit of time.

 

[deuc224]

The one thing that ive never understood about keggers is the push starsan to minimize o2 when transferring to a keg. I leave the top open every single time to see when its about to get full and then top it up after its full. Even on the NEIPAs i dont get a bit of oxidation or off flavor.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

The one thing that ive never understood about keggers is the push starsan to minimize o2 when transferring to a keg. I leave the top open every single time to see when its about to get full and then top it up after its full. Even on the NEIPAs i dont get a bit of oxidation or off flavor.

Well, when I put 5 gallons in the keg, I know it is pretty close to full without looking into the keg.

 

[deuc224]

Well, when I put 5 gallons in the keg, I know it is pretty close to full without looking into the keg.

How do you know? Maybe itll help me out when i do mine.

 

[kevin58]

How do you know? Maybe itll help me out when i do mine.

Weigh it. An empty corny keg will weigh in the neighborhood of 10.5 pounds. Full it will about 55 pounds.