Is double crush a waste of time?

[North_of_60]

Yesterday I bought yeast, hops and grains for two different beers that I am going to brew. I asked for a double crush because they don’t do a fine crush. Am I wasting everyone’s time asking for this?

Every time I buy grains at this store I get an eye roll or a hesitation on the double crush. Yesterday the guy said, “I’ll double crush it if that’s what you want, but it won’t make any difference.”

I said, “Don’t do it then”.

He said, “No, I’ll do it, I’ll run it three time if that’s what you want, but you won’t be able to tell the difference.

Are BIAB brewers such a small group that homebrew stores don’t need our business?

If not, why not have one mill set up for a fine crush? Then they wouldn’t be asked to do a double crush.

I guess I’ll be buying a grain mill soon. But, I’ll buy my supplies some where else.

 

[Yooper]

No, it makes a difference especially if they have a coarse crush to avoid stuck mashes/sparges (or to sell more grain).

Buying your supplies somewhere else where they aren't jerks sounds like a great idea.

 

[beerlover77]

Double makes a huge difference.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Should have run half of it thru to compare and stuck his nose in it...it make a difference.

Some LHBS staff are so arrogant thinking they are home brewing experts because they have a store clerk job at a LHBS lol

 

[wilserbrewer]

Post a good pic of your crush?

 

[North_of_60]

This is the double crush. He went a head and ran it twice. At least I think he did. They have a closed room they measure and mill in. I did not see what the first looked like.

 

[Yooper]

That's an ok crush- I see a few whole pieces, but not too bad. For BIAB, you can go much finer for sure.

 

[North_of_60]

Before I moved I had a comercial coffee grinder set up for my grain mill. I had it set a quite a bit finer than what you see in the picture.

 

[grampamark]

This thread is timely. I'm getting ready to do my first BIAB in about 5 years. I double crushed the grain at my self service LHBS. I don't see anything much bigger than a pinhead (What appear as larger pieces are hulls).

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Sounds like your guy is being kind of a butt-hole. The guys at my shop will gladly double-crush. They'll even re-gap the mill if you don't think it's fine enough. And, yes. Double-crush makes a world of difference. If you have a different shop in town, I would give them a try.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Double crushing is worthwhile if the initial crush is inadequate. You can only get so much conversion though, and most decent crushes yield 90-95% conversion efficiency, so if you're already in that range, then double crushing is unlikely to benefit much.

Double crushing is not some magic bullet that will always improve your efficiency, there is a limit to conversion, and crushing finer won't help any further.

 

[LostHopper]

I'm with priceless. It probably depends on the setting of the store's mill.

Just for the sake of discussion, if the mill is set at .035 then after you crush, all pieces should be .035 or smaller to fit between the rollers. But since the grain is not perfectly symmetric in shape an uncrushed piece could make it unscathed between the rollers. Crushing it again could give you a better chance of the uncrushed grain being oriented in a crushable position. Not guaranteed but chances are better. It seems logical that you would be better served to just close the gap so all the grain is crushed in one pass. I don't think flour is needed for good conversion.

My conclusion was to just buy a mill and set it where I like it, around .028.

Having two mills set up at the store sounds like a perfect solution if they have enough bag brewers to justify it.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

I mill at my LHBS, and I track my efficiency: the second crush for me is worth ~12% overall efficiency. I would look for a new store if I got anything like that.

I had something kinda similar happen - talking about fermentation temperature, and I ramp my Belgians up to 82°, and I got the "that's pretty warm, I am not sure I would go that high . . .". That is the proper way to give constructive criticism in this context.

 

[balrog]

Ritebrew's double crush always made a difference for me. Single crush LHBS one time recently dropped my BHEff from expected 73-ish to 65-ish. For me, double crush is the way. And now I've gotten bitten by the Ugly Junk Corona bug, and I grind even finer, and it's set my BHEff up to around 79-ish.

Now I don't really want to chase 80-90% BrewHouseEfficiency, but 60-s is right out. I just want something easy to repeatedly do so I know what to expect.

All that having been said, I have always seen a diff when double crush is used over single.

 

[IslandLizard]

If you have any small kernel grain in the grist (like wheat, rye or oat malt) many kernels may pass through barely crushed. Even milling 2 times or 3 times may not alleviate that. Best is to set the gap according to the grain. I mill wheat and rye on a 0.024" gap, separately from barley.

I do conventional mash in a cooler mash tun or kettle, not BIAB. Mash efficiency is in the mid 80s.

 

[fofusak]

Dame thing happened to me! I'd always get eyes rolling when I asked for a second pass. One day I couldn't handle the pressure and went home with a single pass. I saw a real hit in efficiency. 10%+

I did it again just to test that it wasn't a one off, and confirmed that it helped.

I ended up saving some money to bulk buy, and got my mill

 

[mongoose33]

THE two things that greatly improved my efficiency was stirring the mash at 15- and 30-minutes, and double-crushing.

The best way to see if you need to double-crush is to inspect the single crush--are there uncrushed kernels in there? If so, those aren't going to do anything for you. Thus, double-crush.

It won't hurt to double-crush, so I'd say just do it. I have a Monster Mill 3-roller mill, and I only crush once, but then again, I have an extra roller that helps break apart the malt.

As @IslandLizard notes, smaller kernels may need a different setting. I do a Rye beer where normal rye kernels can be crushed by my mill. But I bought some "boutique" rye malt from someone down south, and those kernels are SMALL. I haven't used it yet, but when I do, I will have to tighten up my gap.

 

[North_of_60]

I just finished brewing one of the grains I bought, its a light SMaSH. I was expecting 1.036 and got 1.037 for a Brewhouse Efficiency of 78%. I’m satisfied with that. It’s the greif I get when I ask for double crush that irritates me.

There is another store West of Fort Worth that I will try next time. It’s only a 15 minute longer drive. I like to support local businesses when I can but, if that doesn’t work out I’ll buy a mill and buy my grains online.

Does any one have any idea what percent of brewers are doing BIAB?

 

[mongoose33]

I just finished brewing one of the grains I bought, its a light SMaSH. I was expecting 1.036 and got 1.037 for a Brewhouse Efficiency of 78%. I’m satisfied with that. It’s the greif I get when I ask for double crush that irritates me.

There is another store West of Fort Worth that I will try next time. It’s only a 15 minute longer drive. I like to support local businesses when I can but, if that doesn’t work out I’ll buy a mill and buy my grains online.

Does any one have any idea what percent of brewers are doing BIAB?

Don't know about the last question...

As an aside....have you considered buying your own mill and doing it yourself? When you buy malt in bulk, you can save significant money, enough that over a relatively short period of time, you'll have paid for your mill.

My LHBS charges around $1.50/lb for 2-row; I can get it in 50-pound sacks from Ritebrew for under half that. If you use 10# and save 75 cents per pound....after 12 or 14 brews, you've saved enough to pay for the mill, plus you have been able to control your crush as you like.

A good choice for a mill is a Cereal Killer. Can be run off a drill, and you get to decide what the gap is.

Now, where you get your bulk grain matters. I don't have Ritebrew ship it--they are about 3 hours away from me, and not generally on the way to anywhere I go. But every once in a while I go past there, and if I do, i get an order. No shipping. I also have a buddy who goes by there, he'll pick up an order for me.

If you have no cheap way to buy bulk grain where you are, perhaps there is a bulk buy in your area. I do note that one store, Brewhound, will sell bulk grain at 25% off the per-pound price.

 

[fofusak]

I agree in that buying in bulk will save you money. Of course that depends on how much you brew, but if you're worried about the efficiency gain for a second crush pass, I assume you brew often enough to not want to spend the extra ~10% in grain to offset bad efficiency. I used to spare the extra bucks, until I started brewing very often. It meant for me that bulk was the way to go. I don't have access to those super neat prices, but it meant going 1.50 per pound to 1.00 per pound. Still I use about 10 pounds every week. In 20 weeks my mill will have paid itself. It's a long time, especially if you account storage vessels, which will push it further. I'm thinking probably a year total. Anyway, not having to plan the trip to the LHBS, and being able to brew whenever I want, and especially not having to withstand the eye roll when I asked for the second crush... worth every penny

 

[North_of_60]

I just ordered a Cereal Killer from Adventures in Homebrewing, $99.99 with free shipping. Now to find an bag of 2 row base malt.

 

[MaxStout]

I just ordered a Cereal Killer from Adventures in Homebrewing, $99.99 with free shipping. Now to find an bag of 2 row base malt.

Great that you got a mill.

Don't go to places where they don't appreciate your business. Vote with your $$$ and go elsewhere. And if there isn't an alternative store near you, MoreBeer ships free on orders over $59, including grain. You may also get deals on grain with bulk purchases through a local homebrew club.

 

[yowzers]

I got the same response from my guy. After a couple times buying from him I bought my own mill for $90 and now buy my grain uncrushed from Morebeer. It's cheaper and I can crush fine the first time.

 

[LittleRiver]

... MoreBeer ships free on orders over $59, including grain....

Bulk sacks of grains are excluded from the free shipping offer.

I don't know of anybody who offers free shipping on bulk grain (wish they did, my nearest home brew store is 90 miles away).

 

[bpgreen]

Walking on

Bulk sacks of grains are excluded from the free shipping offer.

I don't know of anybody who offers free shipping on bulk grain (wish they did, my nearest home brew store is 90 miles away).

You can't buy a full bag from morebeer with free shipping, but you can buy multiple 10 lb bags. That's not quite as cheap as their full bag price, but might be less than the full bag plus shipping.

 

[rhys333]

I bought my own mill on sale a couple years ago. I consider it one of the best investments I made.

I brew BIAB and I tend to stick with a medium-fine single crush. All the grains are at least broken in two, and look quite similar to the OP's picture. It yields me 78-82% efficiency. I prefer not to grind to dust because I find the quality of beer suffers, at least on my system. With larger particles there's little to no risk of debris making into my BK.

 

[Desert_Sky]

Welcome to homebrewing. Everyone has an opinion whether it be right or wrong.

 

[IslandLizard]

Inquire.

Many LHBS will sell sacks of grain for a much better price than by the pound and crushing it (it becomes a service!). Just talk to them. There's a healthy markup on LHBS grain. That way there won't be shipping charges, which really add up, wiping out any potential savings. That way you'll support your LHBS, get your grain at a decent price and avoid the BS.

Group buys are wonderful, if there is one in your area it's easy to tack a few sacks on. Even a 2 hour drive each way should make it well worth it.

Sometimes a brewery will sell you grain if you know someone there.

 

[fofusak]

Inquire.

Many LHBS will sell sacks of grain for a much better price than by the pound and crushing it (it becomes a service!). Just talk to them. There's a healthy markup on LHBS grain. That way there won't be shipping charges, which really add up, wiping out any potential savings. That way you'll support your LHBS, get your grain at a decent price and avoid the BS.

Sometimes a brewery will sell you grain if you know someone there.

I did these, except I didn't want to support the BS, so I drove ~40 mins to the second closest brew store, bought 3 sacks and a few pounds of various specialty malts.

 

[schematix]

Some things are just better done correctly the first and only time, than done over and over again poorly.

 

[Dhm8484]

I just got 9 pounds of grain at my local brew shop and I asked him to double milk he said if would be like dust. He has his set at right gap smaller than .35. It looks to be a decent crush I'll see what I get for efficiency

 

[North_of_60]

I don’t think there is any danger of turning your grains to dust doing a double crush at .035. I’ve read on this forum that BIAB brewers set their mill at .020 to .028. My mill should be here soon, so I’ll set it somewhere in between and see how it goes.

I have always done a 90 minute mash with the coarse double crush and get 76 to 78% efficiency. I’ll try a 60 minute mash when I get my mill and see how that compares.

 

[Dhm8484]

Yea he is a cool guy and happy to answer questions so I'll take his word for it, there a malting company close to us, the head malter said to tighten gap up for his malts so he did. He wasn't sure where it was set just said smaller than .035

 

[MaxStout]

Double-crushing doesn't necessarily make the crush smaller. It just helps to ensure that a higher percentage of grains are crushed to a given size. A 0.035" gap won't turn it into dust from double-crushing. In fact, that gap is a bit on the wide side for BIAB.

 

[Dhm8484]

He said he knows his is smaller than .035 but couldn't find his feeler gauges to measure because I wanted to know for my notes

 

[RichardM]

Were you getting your grains crushed at the place in Carrolton? If you don't mind me asking.

 

[Dhm8484]

No I'm in altoona

 

[North_of_60]

Mine was in Haltom City. It’s a great brew store. They have good prices and a huge selection of everything. I’ve cooled off since I vented about the double crush attitude. I’ll continue to buy my grains from them when my mill gets here.

After some more research I think I’ll start of setting the rollers on the mill with a credit card and go from there.

 

[NitrogenWidget]

I went and got my own corona mill, some food grade buckets from HD and a drill from harbor freight.
I double crush my own and am happy with the results.
doesn't take long either.

I got it ahead of time because I plan to eventually buy grains in bulk once I figure out which beers I want to keep on hand regularly.
Right now i'm experimenting with different brews so haven't settled on anything yet.

 

[Dhm8484]

Where did you get the mill at?