Is cleaning always necessary?

[sudsmcgee]

One thing I'm not quite understanding here. Maybe because I study microbiology everyday, and fret over little organisms that can infect anything, not just beer.

If you have an "odor" coming from your fermenter that means something is growing in there. Odors don't just show up for funsies, but are decaying organic matter, or growing and reproducing bacteria.

If any of my equipment had an "odor" I'd try and figure out where and what that was immediately if not toss the equipment.

Really? All of my buckets have a strong hop odor. Does this mean I have hops growing in there? Maybe I should toss them. </sarcasm>

If you mix and use sanitizers properly, it will kill virtually everything short of chunky growths.

Also, keep in mind that our ancestors made drinkable beer for 10,000 years with no starsan or iodophor.

Sometimes I think microbiology classes create a bunch of paranoid OCD people.

 

[Begin2Brew]

If I can get at it with a scrubby sponge, like buckets and pots, I give it a good scrub with soap. If I can't get at it with a scrubby sponge, like kegs, I soak it in Oxyclean. I always clean right after use so nothing has a chance to get crusty. I always soak anything on the cold side in star san. I have never had an issue yet. I keep in mind that anything that can flake off the underside cannot be sanitized.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

We are working on a microbial level here.

"Looks" clean can be a starfield of no-see-ums.

this is an amazing point, if you're using your eyes to tell you something's clean you either have super powers or a super dirty something. i'm surprised to see this thread still going, i was under the impression that cleaning and sanitizing is an essential part of the process and brewers strived for a clean and sanitized brew space, equipment, and bottles or kegs. i personally wouldn't begin any brew related activity without cleaning and sanitizing myself (well, i clean myself but i only sanitize my hands and arms), the space I'm working in, and anything coming close to my beer, wort, yeast or ingredients. it's surprising to see some people downplay or ignore the importance of this part of the process.

 

[unionrdr]

Also keep in mind that even the tiniest bits of funk can harbor nasties. If you can smell it,they're their. I soak,scrub,rinse a few times every part of the fermenter. Then sanitize. Especially all the spigot parts & mounting holes. I even use a soft tooth brush on the lid seal area. I use aquarium lift tube brushes on the spigots,& other small ID stuff as well.

 

[squirrelly]

Really? All of my buckets have a strong hop odor. Does this mean I have hops growing in there? Maybe I should toss them. </sarcasm>

As I stated before, if I had any "aroma" hanging out in my fermenter, yes I'd toss it. How do I know what I smell isn't leeching into my beer? This is exactly why I tossed all plastic a long time ago, and ferment solely in stainless conicals which I know I can clean and sanitize properly.

If you mix and use sanitizers properly, it will kill virtually everything short of chunky growths.

"You can't sanitize a turd." that was direct quote from the creator of five star products. In short if it's not clean to begin with, it will never be sterile.

Also, keep in mind that our ancestors made drinkable beer for 10,000 years with no starsan or iodophor.

I doubt our ancestors were making beer that would bring gold medals back to the cave, nor were they sitting around on the mastodon throw nit-picking each and every off flavor found in the beer which is what a BJCP judge or cicerone will do.

Sometimes I think microbiology classes create a bunch of paranoid OCD people.

I've already gone into my personal OCD issues, but microbio classes have taught us a great deal about the living organisms around us, and how they behave. I don't see that as a bad thing. I suppose the UC Davis brewer's institute just teaches people about meaningless brewing procedures as well?

 

[3sheetsEMJ]

Now do this same experiment but add brewers yeast and see what happens. Done.

Excellent point, and I think one that makes the biggest difference. Brewers yeast completely changes the chemistry involved. Wort would be a bacteria heaven, but the addition of an active yeast into properly aerated wort will generate conditions unfavorable for bacteria growth (ie increased alcohol %). Bottom line is clean and sanitize thoroughly, and give your yeast the best possible chance for success.

 

[themack22]

Thanks everyone. Seems that the consensus is that the immediate rinse, shake/rub to visible cleanliness and dry is an acceptable, if not ideal, way to go. I'll probably stick with that for now.

Should the faint odor in my glass carboy concern me? Is that a reason to soak it in PBW? Or is it normal for some faint odor to remain?

No offense, but you sound really lazy. I am lazy too, but I clean my brewing equipment religiously. It's really not that hard to fill your bucket with water/oxy clean and soak everything in there. It's really easy.

 

[weirdboy]

[quote="squirrelly";3637012]
Really? All of my buckets have a strong hop odor. Does this mean I have hops growing in there? Maybe I should toss them. </sarcasm>

As I stated before, if I had any "aroma" hanging out in my fermenter, yes I'd toss it. How do I know what I smell isn't leeching into my beer? This is exactly why I tossed all plastic a long time ago, and ferment solely in stainless conicals which I know I can clean and sanitize properly.

If you mix and use sanitizers properly, it will kill virtually everything short of chunky growths.

"You can't sanitize a turd." that was direct quote from the creator of five star products. In short if it's not clean to begin with, it will never be sterile.

Also, keep in mind that our ancestors made drinkable beer for 10,000 years with no starsan or iodophor.

I doubt our ancestors were making beer that would bring gold medals back to the cave, nor were they sitting around on the mastodon throw nit-picking each and every off flavor found in the beer which is what a BJCP judge or cicerone will do.

Sometimes I think microbiology classes create a bunch of paranoid OCD people.

I've already gone into my personal OCD issues, but microbio classes have taught us a great deal about the living organisms around us, and how they behave. I don't see that as a bad thing. I suppose the UC Davis brewer's institute just teaches people about meaningless brewing procedures as well?[/quote]

Hey, did you happen to produce a series of youtube videos about brewing?

 

[squirrelly]

No; I have a couple of videos on my Facebook page about brewing on the 1100, but that's it. Most of what I've seen on YouTube about brewing has not really impressed me save for BTV.

 

[Northjerzyg]

Just rinsing doesn't remove the film left behind from a previous brew. Fermentor, botlles, everything needs to be cleaned AND sanitized before next use.

 

[unionrdr]

The film from a brew isn't the same as cleaners & the like. Some of those have enzymes or have a different surface tension so they can do their job. If you rinse the bottle while it's freshly emptied,it comes out with no smell. The starsan rinse right befor bottling with the vinator blasts some small particles loose I may've not seen. But that's been rare,just when I didn't strain or use hop sacks. So it's not really an issue,unless you're OCD.

 

[gr8shandini]

I think there's a difference between "clean" and "OCD clean." I may be jinxing myself here, but I've brewed for 4 years with much of the same equipment and never once had an infection. Typically, when I'm done with a piece of brewing equipment, it gets a thorough rinse and I scrape down the chunks until I've got a visibly clean surface. I use StarSan just prior to anything touching fresh, cooled wort and I've been doing just fine.

Detergents are designed to bind to fats, oils, and proteins (which a finished beer has very little of) and make them more soluble in water. Seeing as beer is mostly water with a little bit of sugars and alcohol, using detergents doesn't buy you much. So far as I'm concerned, if it looks clean, it's clean enough for the sanitizer to do its job and that's all that really matters.

 

[unionrdr]

For fermenters,tools,& such PBW & starsan. Then I know it's clean. No dish soap,oxyclean or the like. I like to use what is intended to be used on brew equipment. It doesn't cost that much to get the right tools for the job. Bottles are def easier & quicker to clean.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

No offense, but you sound really lazy. I am lazy too, but I clean my brewing equipment religiously. It's really not that hard to fill your bucket with water/oxy clean and soak everything in there. It's really easy.

i feel the same way, i hate cleaning, but when it comes to brewing equipment, i tend to uber clean. i'm the same way with my aquariums. i don't know if i'd say it's laziness talking in some of these posts. i mean, some of these guys are going through the motions; filling beckets/carboys with water, shaking, wiping, etc., just not using cleaners. others do seem to just skip the cleaning altogether. it's really surprising to see just how many brewers skip or shortcut a step i've always felt was crucial.

Just rinsing doesn't remove the film left behind from a previous brew. Fermentor, botlles, everything needs to be cleaned AND sanitized before next use.

i think it's as simple as ^this^. you can make all the excuses and justifications you want, bottom line is you greatly increase the risk of infection by not cleaning and sanitizing everything that touches your wort after the boil.

 

[petey_c]

A couple of points; Over the course of the past 18+ months, I'd started to notice a deposit on the inside of my bottles. It seemed to be a white/grey powder. I use PET bottles, both dark brown and clear soda bottles. I usually rinse (Not clean. Fill halfway with water, vigorously shake, drain and repeat one or two times more.) them out immediately after emptying, setting them upside down to dry. I rinse with Starsan just prior to bottling. I've found that a hot water (tap water hot, not boiling) soaking in Oxyclean gets rid of most, if not all of the deposits. It also seems that oxyclean is less effective at 68 - 70°F than it is when hot. I'm not exactly sure what the deposits are, but I'll continue to do research on how to remove them short of setting them in a pyre.
gr8shandini, your first sentence made me think of an advertising slogan, "Not just clean, OCD clean!!"

 

[gr8shandini]

Nordeast, I think you've gotten to the crux of the discussion here. I don't think anyone would say that you don't need to clean, it's really just the method we're discussing. To me, introducing harsh cleansers also introduces the chance that they won't be completely disposed of before the brew hits the 'San, so to speak. I've had good results using just fresh water, but if you're diligent about removing every trace of cleanser, it couldn't possibly hurt.

But I don't have 100% trust in my OCD tendencies, so, for me, it breaks down like this; which would you rather have in your beer, trace elements from a previous brew, or trace elements of a caustic cleanser? I vote beer, but you guys may feel differently.

 

[RunnerDude]

No offense, but you sound really lazy. I am lazy too, but I clean my brewing equipment religiously. It's really not that hard to fill your bucket with water/oxy clean and soak everything in there. It's really easy.

Well it depends upon how you define lazy. I'm happy to clean if it's necessary (as you can see from the subject of the post). But I think saving time and money is smart, not lazy. I posted this with the intent of finding some reason to clean or not. And I got that. Given the reasons posted on here (as I stated in a previous post) I've decided to start cleaning most things. My carboy just got done with a day long soak in pbw and now the bucket is getting one along with all the little stuff. Thanks to everyone for all the feedback.

 

[ncbrewer]

To throw a different twist on cleaning and sanitizing, there was an interview with Charlie Talley, inventer of Star-San, on a Basic Brewing broadcast in 2007. He stated that cleaning theoretically eliminates the need for sanitizing - sanitizing is insurance. This thread is looking at the opposite - does sanitizing eliminate the need for [PBW, etc.]. I like the insurance approach, but for re-using my own bottles I skip the PBW wash because I don't have a way to soak 48 bottles in a reasonable time frame.

 

[RunnerDude]

So after a 24ish hour soak in PBW all odor is gone from my carboy. But after a 48 hour soak in PBW a light scrubbing and a good rinse my plastic fermentor bucket still has a distinct odor. I've heard it said that the buckets never lose their odor, but I don't know if that's true. As one poster pointed out, if it smells, there's something still in it. But perhaps small amount of residue in permeable plastic are not going to cause problems.

Do others find they can get their plastic buckets odor free and if so, how?

 

[sudsmcgee]

So after a 24ish hour soak in PBW all odor is gone from my carboy. But after a 48 hour soak in PBW a light scrubbing and a good rinse my plastic fermentor bucket still has a distinct odor. I've heard it said that the buckets never lose their odor, but I don't know if that's true. As one poster pointed out, if it smells, there's something still in it. But perhaps small amount of residue in permeable plastic are not going to cause problems.

Do others find they can get their plastic buckets odor free and if so, how?

The buckets are fine. If the odor won't come out during a a prolonged PBW soak, it won't come out into your beer either. I only use plastic buckets and all of my buckets have a notable odor, yet my beer is consistently great. Brew on good sir!

 

[unionrdr]

So after a 24ish hour soak in PBW all odor is gone from my carboy. But after a 48 hour soak in PBW a light scrubbing and a good rinse my plastic fermentor bucket still has a distinct odor. I've heard it said that the buckets never lose their odor, but I don't know if that's true. As one poster pointed out, if it smells, there's something still in it. But perhaps small amount of residue in permeable plastic are not going to cause problems.

Do others find they can get their plastic buckets odor free and if so, how?

Well,after I bottle a beer,I clean all the equipment used. I wash the yeast out of the fermenter,then set it on the fermenter stand to my right. I take some 3TBSP of PBW & dump it in the FV,fill with water & stir till dissolved. Then fill to near the top. Place lid on top (not screwed or snapped down),& let it soak 5-7 days. Use my bottle brush to lightly scrub off what hasn't dissolved & settled out. Then rinse out the rest,fill it about 1/3 of the way with clean tap water near the sink,& open the spigot.
That'll rinse out the spigot fairly well.
I then remove the spigot & soak all it's parts in a big mug of PBW for an hour or so. I then use aquarium lift tube brushes & a dobie to clean the spigot,seals,lock lug. Dito on the mounting hole area. Make sure you get that hole & the immediet area clean. That gets rid of the oders for me. Clean them inside & out with nothing abrasive,& they look/smell like new.
I just got the spray wand from Midwest for Christmas. That'll make blasting away the heavier crud faster. I can than maybe only soak the FV's for a couple days to get them smelling fresh again. But we'll find out next brew...

 

[RunnerDude]

Well,after I bottle a beer,I clean all the equipment used. I wash the yeast out of the fermenter,then set it on the fermenter stand to my right. I take some 3TBSP of PBW & dump it in the FV,fill with water & stir till dissolved. Then fill to near the top. Place lid on top (not screwed or snapped down),& let it soak 5-7 days. Use my bottle brush to lightly scrub off what hasn't dissolved & settled out. Then rinse out the rest,fill it about 1/3 of the way with clean tap water near the sink,& open the spigot.
That'll rinse out the spigot fairly well.
I then remove the spigot & soak all it's parts in a big mug of PBW for an hour or so. I then use aquarium lift tube brushes & a dobie to clean the spigot,seals,lock lug. Dito on the mounting hole area. Make sure you get that hole & the immediet area clean. That gets rid of the oders for me. Clean them inside & out with nothing abrasive,& they look/smell like new.
I just got the spray wand from Midwest for Christmas. That'll make blasting away the heavier crud faster. I can than maybe only soak the FV's for a couple days to get them smelling fresh again. But we'll find out next brew...

Thanks. That's interesting. What size if your FV? Is is a bucket? I have a 6.5 gallon bucket. I mixed about 4 TBSP PBW in 5 gallons of water. What concentration are you using? I may give it another, longer soak and fill it to the top (I didnt' the first time since there was no krausen above the 5 gallon mark).

 

[RunnerDude]

On second thought, it might be a 6 gallon bucket. I'm not sure. And it really doesn't even matter.