Is cleaning always necessary?

[venquessa]

We did an experiment at Uni to demonstrate just how "lively" the air in the average home is.

1. Take a clear Chinese takeaway carton or lunch box and completely sanitize it as best you can. Make sure it can seal airtight.
2. Pour enough tomato soup into the carton to cover the bottom fully.
3. Immediately seal the tub, then secondarily seal it by warping in cling film.
4. Leave at room temperature in light, but not direct sun light for 2 weeks.
5. Open it and count your bacteria and fungus colonies. Work out the volume of air you sealed into the tub and therefore the number of nasties per cubic meter of air.

When I did it, I got a result that was scary. It was something like 400 fungi spurs per cubic meter!

Edit: Tomato soup is usually sterilized before canning. Hence it's use in this experiment.

 

[jwalker1140]

I believe the OP was advocating Hot Water, physical agitation, followed by sanitizer. The question is, will simple physical agitation (wiping) remove the vast majority of proteins, biofilm, etc.. to let the sanitizer do its job. This becomes especially important with plastic.

Even if John the Burger Flipper used an Ethanol or QUAT based sanitizer after blowing up the restroom and washing with hot water, he does not use a surfactant to remove the poopoo. The poopoo provides a hideout. There is no replacement for a cleaning agent; there is no replacement for a sanitizer.

Understood. Good point!

 

[Fennis]

venquessa, I am no science expert, and I agree that its always best to clean and sanitize before you use anything, but isn't that a flawed experiment because while you are trapping mold spores in the air and then sealing them into the container, that really isn't accurate to what would normally be in the air in our homes because you are giving them a small, air tight, perfect environment to grow? To the number of spores in that container really only proves that you were successful in getting a mold spore from the air into your container. Just saying...

 

[venquessa]

Yes, it gives you a figure based on how many spores where present in the volume of air you trapped. Assuming everything else was sterile. You extrapolate that up to work out the number per cubic meter. There were quite a few of them, and, if I recall at least one other, different looking patch.

It's basically a simple homemade petr dish (sp?)... for stuff that likes tomato soup of course.

 

[Fennis]

Interesting, see I know little about science, I was just curious. My wife loves tomato soup, I'll let her know the next time she makes it that she is eating petri dish soup.

 

[3sheetsEMJ]

One thing to keep in mind is unless you are in a cleanroom environment, there is bacteria on everything, even in the water you clean your equipment with, even in the air ( most of household dust is skin that is filled with bacteria). But bacteria doest like heat, especially heat above 170 degrees which is why boiling kills the bugs. Now qhen you add your yeast to the wort ( which as stated above has bacteria from the air and equipment) it converts sugars to alcohol, which lmakes an unfavorable atmosphere for most bugs. So the bacteria multiples, but so does the alcohol% of the beer. If your yeast wins out over the bacteria youre in good shape, otherwise the bacteria growth can be substantial and you get an infection, which sucks.

I clean my equipment with starsan but mostly wash everything with tap. Ive never gotten an infection, and the only time ive gotten an off flavor was because of how i peocessed thw grain. To be safe, wash and sanitize the hell out of everything. Of all the things that can ruin a beer, bacteria shouldnt be one of them if your cleaning habits and processing methods are sound.

 

[Jay1]

I clean and sanitize before and after. I realize I'm probably a little OCD, but after all the effort I put into to brew, I'd hate to have something bad happen. If I just made it visibly clean, who knows what's left behind that can sit and grow (and make my equipment stink) before I brew again. Sanitizing is just one small extra step, why not?

 

[GASoline71]

After all the time and money I have invested in my brew equipment and not to mention the time it takes to do all this stuff... why even consider not cleaning/washing and sanitizing every single time?

I know I don't want to take that chance.

Gary

 

[mikeho]

Interesting. Thanks. What do you consider the difference between 1st recycling and thereafter? I.E. why do you clean the first time but not thereafter? My initial thought would be that, with the exception of the outside of the bottle, it would be the same situation after drinking a commercially made brew as a homebrew. But maybe I'm missing something.

At least for me, I might be getting the empties from someone other than myself, so no idea whether they were rinsed. Oxyclean takes the crud right out. After that, since they are now my bottles, they always get rinsed, then just need to be sanitized.

 

[RunnerDude]

At least for me, I might be getting the empties from someone other than myself, so no idea whether they were rinsed. Oxyclean takes the crud right out. After that, since they are now my bottles, they always get rinsed, then just need to be sanitized.

Aha. Understood. If I hadn't immediately rinsed them myself, I'd do the same.

 

[PIGMAN]

Interesting. Thanks. What do you consider the difference between 1st recycling and thereafter? I.E. why do you clean the first time but not thereafter? My initial thought would be that, with the exception of the outside of the bottle, it would be the same situation after drinking a commercially made brew as a homebrew. But maybe I'm missing something.

I do the same thing as Uniondr. Reason is that when you're first recycling a bottle, you may not know how long it was sitting around, or if any gunk dried up in the bottle. Also, there's the label to remove, so you might as well soak the inside as well. You have more control over the future uses of the bottles, so an immediate thorough rinse should work. By the way, all of my brewing equipment gets cleaned after use, and before the subsequent use. I use Easy Clean, although I'm sure Oxyclean works just as well. After cleaning, I sanitize with StarSan.

 

[RunnerDude]

Thanks everyone. Given the arguments here and the general consensus I will be cleaning and sanitizing everything from here on out.

My take away is this: there might be some physical matter left behind that you don't see which might harbor enough bacteria that the sanitizer won't kill it.

Once this tub of PBW is done I'll have to look into Oxiclean free. I hear it's much cheaper. Thanks again.

 

[Fennis]

Try Sun Oxygen cleaner. Its even cheaper and cleans just as well as OxyClean Free. My wife is a coupon nut, and hit a really good deal on OxyClean Free, but normally I just buy a huge tub of Sun at wal-mart or Big Lots and its double the size of Oxy at half the price.

 

[Cubslover]

My rule is if it looks clean, its clean, but if there is even a shadow of doubt, I clean it.

Yep. I don't scrub everything with pbw every time, but EVERYTHING that touches my beer from flameout until it is poured is thoroughly sanitized.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

My advice is to clean things that need cleaned (fermenters, kettles, MLT's, starter vessels, blow off tubes) and rinse things that need rinsed (siphon tubing, racking canes, spoons, thermometers, pitchers (or whatever you vorlauf with), hydrometer).

After a while you will get the hang of what needs cleaned and what can just be rinsed. And for the things that just get rinsed (like siphon tubing and racking canes) a good soak with star san before you use it and you're fine. Star san, unlike some of the other sanitizers, will effectively kill microbes even in the presence of organics.

For the things that you do clean, you don't have to use expensive cleaners like PBW for everything. For instance, I use Ivory bar soap to clean my plastic bucket fermenters and my kettles/MLT. I save the PBW for hard stuff like starter vessels, blow tubes and things that are generally hard to get at and clean by hand.

 

[RunnerDude]

Interesting. What cleaning products should I avoid? Obviously dish soap is the easiest. We use "natural" dish soap, whatever that means (usually citrus based). I would imagine the possible problem is that it doesn't rinse off completely?

 

[BBL_Brewer]

Interesting. What cleaning products should I avoid? Obviously dish soap is the easiest. We use "natural" dish soap, whatever that means (usually citrus based). I would imagine the possible problem is that it doesn't rinse off completely?

Dish soap for sure, it is hard to rinse off completely and could affect your head retention. Any mild soap should be ok for general duty cleaning. Scent free would be preferable but it's hard to find. I hear oxyclean is a cheaper alternative to PBW, but I'm so scimpy with the first jug of PBW I bought I haven't ran out yet. Ivory soap, PBW and tap water are the only things I use to clean with. Also, when you do have to make up some of the expensive stuff like PBW, take full advantage of it. Make up just enough to clean everything that needs cleaned with it. For instance I'll make up just a little over a gallon of it (about half the recommended dosage) and soak my blow off tubes and anything else I have laying around that will fit in the bucket and soak those first. Then I'll fill up a starter vessel and let it sit over night. If I have more starter vessels, I'll just keep running it down the line until I have everything clean.

 

[RunnerDude]

Make up just enough to clean everything that needs cleaned with it. For instance I'll make up just a little over a gallon of it (about half the recommended dosage) and soak my blow off tubes and anything else I have laying around that will fit in the bucket and soak those first. Then I'll fill up a starter vessel and let it sit over night. If I have more starter vessels, I'll just keep running it down the line until I have everything clean.

Cool. I take it you don't use PBW on your carboys? Or you don't use carboys?

 

[unionrdr]

I use PBW & starsan for everything,since they're designed for brewing equipment. I'd rather spend the $8 a pound for the PBW then use something that may be questionable somehow or other. Much less hand soap,I'm not sure about that one.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

We are working on a microbial level here.

"Looks" clean can be a starfield of no-see-ums.

 

[shattstar03]

i agree.

my method is just to keep a few gallons of oxy clean solution in any buckets not in use. when the time comes to use them, i empty, rinse and sanitize.

Wouldn't that leave a film in your carboys and buckets if you were to do that?

 

[squirrelly]

One thing I'm not quite understanding here. Maybe because I study microbiology everyday, and fret over little organisms that can infect anything, not just beer.

If you have an "odor" coming from your fermenter that means something is growing in there. Odors don't just show up for funsies, but are decaying organic matter, or growing and reproducing bacteria.

If any of my equipment had an "odor" I'd try and figure out where and what that was immediately if not toss the equipment.

As for cleaning, yes clean everything. I go to the kitchen in the middle of the night and grab a glass of water. I drink from said glass and inspect it. Huh, no viable "dirt" so it must be clean. It gets placed back in the cupboard. In the morning I'm receiving a horrible tongue lashing from the wife for being a disgusting inconsiderate person. The same goes for brewing gear. Everything I used on brew day gets tossed in a warm tub of PBW to soak. It gets rinsed with star San and put upside down to dry. (try storing tubing lying on its side while it's still wet and see what grows in a week or so.) the day before brew day I can't guarantee dust or any other organic material has not made its way onto my equipment since last it was used so this process gets repeated.

Keep in mind this is coming from the guy that dusts base boards, ceiling fans, window sills, and hardwood floors with straight pine sol twice a week. I do not tolerate messes, things out of place, or dirt in my home or brewery. It took the wife a couple years to get used to putting coffee cups in numerical order based on the number placed on the bottom, putting the toothpaste in the drawn circle in the medicine cabinet after wiping off the excess with a sterile cloth of course, and putting books back in the study on the shelves first in alphabetical order then largest to smallest basted on genre. The same goes for our brewing practices. In case you were wondering, yes I am legitimately OCD.

 

[unionrdr]

OCD? Gee,ya think? But that's what I've been saying,albeit more susinctly on your part. If it smells funky,it isn't clean. I've found if you clean the fermenter,& it still smells a little,take out the spigot,& clean it & all parts thereof. & clean the mounting hole area as well. Everytime.
I clean & sanitize everything for every brew.

 

[squirrelly]

Yes really OCD. I was diagnosed after a deployment to Afghanistan and Yemen.

 

[unionrdr]

Yup,that'll dang sure do it. You had to be to make it back home. I freaked when Jose Wales said something to the people with him in that ranch house. My father said the same thing,nearly word for word to me a couple decades before. He was a seabee in the Phillipines building & defending the runways to drop the big ones on Japan. Thanks for doing your part & being able to talk beer stuff now.

 

[DWavs]

Hi. My name is John Doe. I work at McDonalds. I just used the restroom, and boy was it a mess when I was done. I rinsed my hands under hot water because I don't like the smell of soap. Here is your order, I made it myself. I hope you enjoy the subtle overtones and flavors of Salmonella, E. coli, Staphylococcus, and Clostridia that were under my nails and hiding in the wrinkles of my hands. Not to mention the proteins in my feces that the hot water couldn't quite get off of my hands. :cross:

Not a good analogy. Based on the original post, you would have sanitized your hands before leaving the bathroom.

Back on topic...some seem to be missing what was asked. He is skipping the cleaning since the bottles are rinsed and then sanitizing them. So...is the cleaning necessary if the bottles seem clean?

 

[sudsmcgee]

to answer your question, YES, cleaning and sanitizing is a NECESSARY part of brewing. no way out of it, unless you want infected or bad tasting beer, you MUST CLEAN AND SANITIZE ANY EQUIPMENT THAT ISN'T BEING BOILED.

I don't 100% agree. If the component was originally clean, it doesn't really ALWAYS need to be cleaned again as long as it has been sanitized.

It's good practice to both clean and sanitize, but not always necessary.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Awesome! I would say this perfectly illustrates the need for being OCD when it comes to keeping things clean in the brewery. Personally, I've worked way too hard on my brew and waited way too long to drink it to skip any steps when it comes to making sure my equipment is clean as well as sanitary.

Your fermentors have fecal matter in them? Did you crap in them?

 

[sudsmcgee]

We did an experiment at Uni to demonstrate just how "lively" the air in the average home is.

1. Take a clear Chinese takeaway carton or lunch box and completely sanitize it as best you can. Make sure it can seal airtight.
2. Pour enough tomato soup into the carton to cover the bottom fully.
3. Immediately seal the tub, then secondarily seal it by warping in cling film.
4. Leave at room temperature in light, but not direct sun light for 2 weeks.
5. Open it and count your bacteria and fungus colonies. Work out the volume of air you sealed into the tub and therefore the number of nasties per cubic meter of air.

When I did it, I got a result that was scary. It was something like 400 fungi spurs per cubic meter!

Edit: Tomato soup is usually sterilized before canning. Hence it's use in this experiment.

Now do this same experiment but add brewers yeast and see what happens. Done.

 

[unionrdr]

The only thing I don't clean everytime (after initial recycling) is the glass bottles. They have a little beer left in the bottom to keep the dregs moist. So when I rinse them out some 3 times each,they're good to go on the bottle tree to dry before storage. So it's easy to see at that point that they're clean.
And I'll tell you what,that vinator with starsan on bottling day even gets off some hop grain stuff & other lil grains as well with the five pumps I give each bottle. I've been kicking around the idea of re-soaking the bottles in a bucket of PBW every few brews just to be sure they're clean & odor free.