IS 30A enough for my control panel or am I too close?

[Gregredic]

l

This cord is great. It will save me from having to buy a 30A breaker that is GFCI.

 

[kal]

The GFCI breakers are expensive but it is safer so I'm going that route...

Safer than what? Using a GFI in a cord like I showed above? If yes, why?

Kal

 

[kal]

Hope we are helping a bit Kal... opinions are like a$$holes, we all have them, but yours is the one that you should worry about

Helping a lot actually. It's always good to constantly re-think things and you guys are keeping me thinking!

FWIW, I used 50A GFCI -> 6/3 wire -> range outlet -> range cord -> disconnect -> Subpanel w/ 2 30A and 1 15A circuits

There's that disconnect thing again... Anyone have a picture/link to what it is? Google doesn't help as it's a pretty generic term. What exactly is a "disconnect"?

Thanks guys.

Kal

 

[Gussymo]

I am enjoying the discussion. I am also building an electric rig. What I am planning, FWIW, is 50A GFCI -> 6/3 + ground wire -> Subpanel w/ 1 30A breaker -> 10/4 stranded wire to a 4 prong 30 amp dryer outlet -> 10/4 wire to the control panel -> 10/4 wire to the 5500 watt element. The subpanel has slots for future expansion if I want to run a 120v curcuit. I may also add outlets to the control panel to run 2 elements but not at the same time.

 

[bakins]

There's that disconnect thing again... Anyone have a picture/link to what it is? Google doesn't help as it's a pretty generic term. What exactly is a "disconnect"?

Here's what mine looks like:

Product Information Error Page

There are some that are like a big switch - technically not a disconnect, but close enough.

 

[conpewter]

Safer than what? Using a GFI in a cord like I showed above? If yes, why?

Kal

Safer than not having a GFI at all, I wish I could have found a 30 amp GFI receptacle but was unable to do so. After further thought I'm thinking of going with the GFI 30 amp cord from ebay, since it is 17 ft I also won't need to buy any wire (Except the 1-2 ft to connect to a dryer outlet.... that happens to be right next to the gas dryer in case someone installs an electric one in the future)

Also if anyone is going to go for 50 amps, I saw some 50 amp GFCI breakers on ebay for ~30, much cheaper since they are used with spas.

 

[GranillaNutz]

is there a reason everybody uses 10/3 and 10/4... ive never hooked one up that used a nuetral... come to think of it, ive never hookd up a water heater above 30 amps... except for the on demand ones...

 

[conpewter]

Well for a 220V 2 pole system you need two wires for hot. If your dryer/brewstand etc also has some 110V parts you can use the neutral and one hot leg to power those, then of course you have a ground wire too.

 

[kal]

I am enjoying the discussion. I am also building an electric rig. What I am planning, FWIW, is 50A GFCI -> 6/3 + ground wire -> Subpanel w/ 1 30A breaker -> 10/4 stranded wire to a 4 prong 30 amp dryer outlet -> 10/4 wire to the control panel -> 10/4 wire to the 5500 watt element. The subpanel has slots for future expansion if I want to run a 120v curcuit. I may also add outlets to the control panel to run 2 elements but not at the same time.

I'm no electrican but that setup makes sense to me. The only typo I see is that the wire to the elements is 10/3 not 10/4 (there's no need for a neutral). You can use 10/4 wire if you want, just cap the neutral with a marret.

Here's what mine looks like:

Got it! Thank you! So just a big switch essentially. Can you use these to power on/off the brew panel so that no 30A+ power switch is required in the brew panel? Assuming it won't be turned on/off more than say once a day (more likely once a month).

Kal

 

[GranillaNutz]

10/2 is trade for 2 ten gauge wires and a ground... its actaully 3 wires but the ground is never counted... if u go to the supply house and ask for 10/3 you will get a black, red, white, and ground...

 

[bakins]

So, what's the general feeling on a subpanel versus just using a distribution block? The block is much smaller and I've almost convinced myself that the subpanel is not needed.

 

[conpewter]

I'd go even further and ask what the consensus is on large wire nuts vs distribution blocks?

 

[Gussymo]

I'm no electrican but that setup makes sense to me. The only typo I see is that the wire to the elements is 10/3 not 10/4 (there's no need for a neutral). You can use 10/4 wire if you want, just cap the neutral with a marret.

I already have 25' of 10/4 so I will use half to go from the wall to the control panel and the other half from the control panel to the burner. If I didn't already have the 10/4, I agree, 10/3 is what I should use.

 

[Gussymo]

I'm only using a sub panel because I have a 50 amp gfci breaker in the house panel and I didn't want to use 6 gauge wire everywhere the 220 went. I may not have had to but the sub panel wasn't that expensive and I already had a regular 30 amp breaker for the sub panel. I can also add a 120 v breaker to the subpanel and it will be protected by the gfci as well.

 

[bakins]

I'd go even further and ask what the consensus is on large wire nuts vs distribution blocks?

I used large (to code) nuts on some 6 guage in my basement (inside a box, etc), but that takes up a lot of room, IMO, in a "control panel." Of course, I used wirenuts inside my rig for all the 120V stuff.

 

[bakins]

I didn't want to use 6 gauge wire everywhere the 220 went. I may not have had to but the sub panel wasn't that expensive and I already had a regular 30 amp breaker for the sub panel. I can also add a 120 v breaker to the subpanel and it will be protected by the gfci as well.

In a distribution block, your "out" wire doesn't (and usually isn't) the same size as your out wire.

Also, as far as 120V is concerned, wouldn't you just connect it to one hot instead of two on the block? (Assuming a 3 pole block - 2 hot, 1 neutral)

The Pol, is that how you did yours?

 

[WBC]

I can see by the discussion that there is no real plan. I would suggest an electrical contractor be consulted for the best design of all your wiring. If you choose the wrong plan you may end up spending twice the money by having to change out anything that does not work well. Every person that keeps saying that I am no electrician should not be giving advise when they have no idea what is available or needed (to code). It is better to not find yourself fried on the floor by the paramedics the next day.

 

[GranillaNutz]

at work today, i had to go check out a 30 amp disconnect own of my coworkers had installed for a big battery charger. here's the specs on it.

the fuse pullout was melted together and i couldn't get the fuse out.

the one next to it had a rating of 28 and the disconnect was fine

and they' were both inspected and passed by new orleans inspecter, steve bordelon. the one that burnt, was a fault of my coworker carelessly stripping stranded wire. 10 gauge stranded wire don't work so well if u cut half of the strands off...

 

[bakins]

Every person that keeps saying that I am no electrician should not be giving advise when they have no idea what is available or needed (to code).

For the record: there is basically no way to build an electric brew rig to code. We are building (or have built) hot water heaters. However, it's not very hard to wire from main box to the receptacle to code - a basic wiring book has that in it, as well as subpanels, etc. You can actually read the real codes as well (I did for parts of it.) Actually on the brew rig, we can give advice on what has work and should work based on other electrical wiring principles and how other "to code" wiring implementations might be done. In the end, it's just unprofessional advice

That's the disclaimer. Electricity can kill you. Never ever do anything that's not to code. My posts should never be followed and are for reference only.

If you need to hire an electrical contractor or engineer to tell you not build an electric brew rig (because, legally, that's what they should do), then please do. However, if you have issues running a basic 30A circuit, you can hire that out, but I'd recommend you seriously reconsider going electric. If you have trouble with a pretty simple 240V circuit, then you probably don't need to screw around with SSR's and 5400W heater elements.

There, does that make you happy?

 

[GranillaNutz]

"legaly" you could actually get a brew rig to "code" and get it passed by an inspecter.... the electrical equipment would for the most part have to be stationary and built into the house, but it would basically be considered an appliance..... i seriously doubt anyone here has tried to get there brew rig inspected.. good idea tho... i will submit a brew rig diagram and i bet i can get it passed. who wants to make a bet? all depends on the "authority having jurisdiction" it wud be up to him to decide if he would pass my brew rig because it's not UL and all that jazz...

mcguires pub in destin fla has a nice electric brew rig but i'm sure it cost a chunk. and i'm sure they had to get it inspected cuz it's in the resteraunt.

 

[bakins]

but it would basically be considered an appliance..... i will submit a brew rig diagram and i bet i can get it passed.

Appliances are usually UL approved. (Some places of business refuse non UL approved stuff at the dock, which is a pain in IT...) But, hey, if it could be approved, that would be interesting.

Still wondering about distribution block vs sub panel. I'm thinking of redoing my rig into a 1 tier and would like to shove all the electrical stuff into a single junction box, but the subpanel is just too big.

 

[GranillaNutz]

ur subpanel layout looks ok to me...

 

[Gussymo]

What's a marret? I googled it and nothing came up that had to do with wiring.

 

[GranillaNutz]

im not sure what that is either... im sure i just call it somthing else

 

[kal]

Sorry, maybe marret is a Canadian term. (Like back bacon, tuque, or "eh?").

It's a wire connector/cap:

In use:

Kal

 

[WBC]

For the record: there is basically no way to build an electric brew rig to code. We are building (or have built) hot water heaters. However, it's not very hard to wire from main box to the receptacle to code - a basic wiring book has that in it, as well as subpanels, etc. You can actually read the real codes as well (I did for parts of it.) Actually on the brew rig, we can give advice on what has work and should work based on other electrical wiring principles and how other "to code" wiring implementations might be done. In the end, it's just unprofessional advice

That's the disclaimer. Electricity can kill you. Never ever do anything that's not to code. My posts should never be followed and are for reference only.

If you need to hire an electrical contractor or engineer to tell you not build an electric brew rig (because, legally, that's what they should do), then please do. However, if you have issues running a basic 30A circuit, you can hire that out, but I'd recommend you seriously reconsider going electric. If you have trouble with a pretty simple 240V circuit, then you probably don't need to screw around with SSR's and 5400W heater elements.

There, does that make you happy?

All I was trying to say here is get someone with electronic experience to help with the engineering of the circuits if you have very little ability with electronics. I am not saying you can not learn but having good help saves time and money and ensures safety in general. There are many ways to do something and some are better than others.

 

[conpewter]

Why is it such a bad thing to have one leg still hot to the element?

I'll have my kettle well grounded, and I've always used a plastic spoon.

I guess my question is that if touching the element would cause me to become the easiest path for current... why wouldn't it constantly trip the breaker since the easiest path for it would be through the wort and into the kettle which is grounded?

I can only imagine that means that the element itself won't shock me if one leg is hot, but instead has coatings on it to keep the current away from the water even with one leg still on.

I will have a switch that turns off both legs when I'm done with it, and then I'll also be turning off the breaker when not brewing.

 

[bakins]

Why is it such a bad thing to have one leg still hot to the element?

I went on a semi-rant about this in another thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/bl...rms-conversion-93217/index14.html#post1036288

Basically, use a DPST switch on the element circuit and turn it off when you want element to be completely off.

 

[bakins]

All I was trying to say here is get someone with electronic experience to help with the engineering of the circuits if you have very little ability with electronics.

I understand. My comments were not meant to be pointed. I'd take it a step further and say that if you are unsure about it, then don't do it. It's just not worth the risk. If you have electrical knowledge and just need help translating to brewing, that's fine. Not that I'm any master of things, but I read books etc to learn how to wire my basement to code (it was an empty shell). This included subpanels, range outlets (full kitchen in basement - by code that's multiple GFCI circuits, etc.). After that, I felt comfortable around electrical stuff and just needed help understanding PID's, SSR's etc. I ran a few things by a coworker (who is a facilities guy) and built my rig.

So, I think I agree with your comments in general, but was just saying that a good DIY "electrician" shouldn't have any issues with an electric brew cart. However, it should not be your first electrical project, especially if you have not dealt with 240V (2 hots) or GFCI stuff before.

I'm sure someone will post that this was their first electrical project and it turned out great. Hats off to you. Electricity scared the crap out of me until I learned "the rules" about it. (Still have great respect around it though...)

 

[The Pol]

I went on a semi-rant about this in another thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/bl...rms-conversion-93217/index14.html#post1036288

Basically, use a DPST switch on the element circuit and turn it off when you want element to be completely off.

I used the DPST switch to cut both legs for one reason only... I wanted to. It assures me that no matter what the PID is doing, the element, outlet... whatever, is totally without power, and I wanted to have a sure fire way to turn it off completely.
I understand that if it is safe to run it with BOTH legs hot, one leg hot is not a big deal. I also understand that it wont heat with ONE leg hot... again, it is just nice to be able to switch off power to that outlet completely.