My basement is at a constant 50 degrees, so I went to the home brew store looking for a lager kit. For various reasons, I ended up buying a nut brown ale kit, then later got to thinking that it wouldn't ferment at 50 degrees with the ale yeast that comes with it. I have an 11.5 oz package of Saflager S-23 Dry Lager Yeast that I was planning to use on another brew. Can I substitute the lager yeast without it doing weird things to the beer? Is 11.5 oz enough for a 5 gallon batch? If not, can I put both the lager yeast and the ale yeast in the same batch? I was planning to brew this kit with a friend tomorrow, so any immediate pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
Is 11.5 grams enough lager yeast for 5 gallon batch?
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What is the estimated SG of your lager? When I asked this question I was told to use a minimum of 2 packets of yeast for any SG over 1.052.
tommysauder
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I've done a lot of research and no. But I'm using liquid yeast so it may be different. 1 vial needs to basically be multiplied 4 times for a good lager pitch. I think my starter will take a week to go which is ok as the temperatures here and in my cold cellar are below 52F.
I would research about making a starter and grow your 11.5g pack using the provided calculator... that way you get a lager.
I would research about making a starter and grow your 11.5g pack using the provided calculator... that way you get a lager.
-MG-
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http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
I use this. If you can provide more information about the beer you are making, IE the OG and how many gallons. I'll be happy to plug the numbers in to tell you ideally how much yeast you should pitch.
Note that this will probably seem like 2-3x what you are use to, but it will provide the highest quality and repeatable product.
I use this. If you can provide more information about the beer you are making, IE the OG and how many gallons. I'll be happy to plug the numbers in to tell you ideally how much yeast you should pitch.
Note that this will probably seem like 2-3x what you are use to, but it will provide the highest quality and repeatable product.
tommysauder
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He's making a lager so unless he wants to buy 4 dry packets (each $6 where I live). Starter seems viable 
He's making a lager so unless he wants to buy 4 dry packets (each $6 where I live). Starter seems viable
the OG would have to be over 1.100+ to require 4 packs. 2 should do it for most beers.
-MG-
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This is based on what? At least give some information when you suggest this.
If he wants to do it the right way and pitch 1.5 cells/ml/Plato.
Fermentis on their site states that they have 6B cells per gram.
So 11.5 grams x 6 = 69 grams
If he made a 5 gallon batch at 1.050 OG. Here is the math for what he SHOULD pitch to ensure the HIGHEST QUALITY and most CONSISTENT beer he can make. Just because it has 'worked' in the past, doesn't mean its the right way.
Here is the formula for 1.5 pitching rate:
(1.5 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)
1,500,000 x 18927.1 x 12.5 = 354,883,125,000
So he should pitch 354 Billion cells.
When you do the math that is a little more than 5 packets, which is crazy to pitch. The most cost effective way to do this is to buy a white labs vial, make a 2L starter with 228g of LDME and you will have the appropriate amount of yeast for your lager.
This alone will take your beer to the next level.
tommysauder
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From what I've researched 2L is liberal !
Is your goal to have something drinkable? If yes, then you have nothing to worry about.
Is your goal to make high quality beer? If yes, then...not so much.
Thanks for your comments. I'm new at brewing, so can you help me understand your "drinkable vs. high quality beer" comment? Is is about the effect of mixing lager yeast and ale yeast, or not using enough yeast, or something else? I understand that lager yeast will enable to beer to ferment at a lower temperature. If I didn't add enough yeast, can I add more later (like in a week or two)? And if so, what kind of yeast and how much? I brewed this batch at a location that I visit on the weekends, therefore the constant 50 degrees when I'm not there. I was planning to ferment for three weeks, bringing the temperature up to 65 or so for a few days, after the first two weeks, based on advise I've gotten.
-MG-
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Drinkable is a maybe. With so little yeast you are really stressing them and are leaving yourself at risk on many different levels: (1) stalled fermentation, where the yeast just drop out (2) off flavors, diacetyl will probably be more present since you are pitching less. Those are just to name a few.
Now if everything works out ok, you could have an ok beer but it won't be great. I really suggest you read about proper yeast pitching rates and really focus on that.
You could add more yeast later on, but I'm not sure how they changes the flavor profile. It's best to throw the proper amount in from the beginning. I think your schedule you have set is good with the diacetyl rest at 65 F.
Lager's are extremely tough beers to brew. I would guess if you mix the lager and ale yeast, you wouldn't really benefit from the ale yeast as it would probably be too cold to gain much benefit for them to do their work and most of them will probably drop out and the ones that do, do some work, may leave a different flavor.
The main thing here is pitching the correct amount of yeast. One pack is not enough.
If there is only 6B cells per gram of dry yeast, then 1 pack of dry yeast would have 30% less cells than a Wyeast smack pack. You might want to give Mr. Malty a heads up because they seem to be under the impression that there's 20B cell/gram in dry yeast.
-MG-
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I'm sure someone has brought it to their attention.
http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFG_S23.pdf
Look at the viable cells at packaging.
Maybe Mr. Malty is looking at a different type of dry yeast? Remember one more fact. This is the amount of yeast that makes it into the pack, most likely you will have some dead cells when pitching or re-hydrating that will further degrade the yeasties.
Most White Labs Vials and I believe smack packs are around 100 billion cells at packaging and they go down in efficiency. Liquid yeast's viability drops 21% each month after manufacturer date.
Yeah, I checked out the pdf after I read your earlier post. I had always just assumed it was similar to US-05; that cell count totally caught me by surprise. Maybe underpitching has something to do with all the bad reviews I've been reading about dry lager yeasts.
larrybrewer
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This is Larry from Brewer's Friend. I sure wish it was 20B cells per gram, but that is not what the research indicates today. We think it is closer to 10B/g, based on a study out of Belgium. It does vary by strain. The manufacturers may be understating the count to hedge (and sell more yeast perhaps?).
I just noticed the link to the study is now broken... bah.... I contacted Fermentis about it.
The URL was:
http://www.fermentis.com/SHARED/Doc_52528.pdf
If anybody has an updated link please share so we can update it on our end.
I just noticed the link to the study is now broken... bah.... I contacted Fermentis about it.
The URL was:
http://www.fermentis.com/SHARED/Doc_52528.pdf
If anybody has an updated link please share so we can update it on our end.
larrybrewer
Well-Known Member
PS - let us know if there is every anything we can do to improve!
Well, it's day 6, and the airlock has been bubbling every 3-6 seconds for all 6 days. So far, so good, I guess. In another week, I'll raise the ambient temp to 65 for a few days for a diacetyl rest, then lower to 50 for another 5 days or so, then take a final gravity reading (if bubbling has stopped), then bottle.
