IRIMS is here!

[KartRacer54]

Trimix
Any chance you could post some pictures of the setup. I am having trouble wrapping my head around the flow pattern through the IRIMS.

 

[TallDan]

I'm getting .5 to 1 deg per min with a 1.5:1 and about 20lbs of grain in a .5bbl keg. At 1gpm.

That's to the top of the bed, it takes about 5-10 min for the bed to equalize.

I have several RTD's glued to the wall of the MLT. Some times it's too much info as I never thought my mash was that unbalanced.

As a matter of fact I had to put a fine tuning slider on my HMI to prevent a huge swing( tweaks the SP). I know my loop should take care of it, but with different grain bills and such, the loop would always be unstable. Maybe I should load 20lbs at 1.5:1 and tune my loop?

Any idea how much power it was using to maintain and raise temps? With a PID in there, it's possible that you have more of the heaters than you really need, correct?

 

[nhamilto40]

A little info for those who are new to band heaters: These heater are intended to be firmly clamped around a steel barrel (typically for thermoplastic extrusion or injection molding). If they are powered without being tightened onto a barrel/pipe/etc they will overheat and burn up in seconds. Also the heater elements are mica insulated and their wires are fiberglass insulated so they will arc over and burn up if they get wet. If they are wetted for any reason they must be baked out to ~300 F before power is applied. Max element temperature is 900 F for mica heater bands.

Are these heaters a good idea? Maybe but you should understand their limitations before installing them on your system.

 

[trimixdiver1]

A little info for those who are new to band heaters: These heater are intended to be firmly clamped around a steel barrel (typically for thermoplastic extrusion or injection molding). If they are powered without being tightened onto a barrel/pipe/etc they will overheat and burn up in seconds. Also the heater elements are mica insulated and their wires are fiberglass insulated so they will arc over and burn up if they get wet. If they are wetted for any reason they must be baked out to ~300 F before power is applied. Max element temperature is 900 F for mica heater bands.

Are these heaters a good idea? Maybe but you should understand their limitations before installing them on your system.

Good info.

That's why I use a pvc pipe split in half and clamped around them. The wires are coated with liquid tape. Trust me, I made this as safe as possible.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Any idea how much power it was using to maintain and raise temps? With a PID in there, it's possible that you have more of the heaters than you really need, correct?

First: please for the love of God, quit calling a temperature controller a PID! PID is an algorithm, that's it. You don't have to use the PID function on most temperature controllers.

My PLC has the ability to do 2000 PID loops.



I tuned my closed PID loop, so it will use 0-100% power, whatever you have on the heating side will fully be utilized. So if I took heaters out, not only would it take longer to heat, the loop will be out of tune. So within reason, I could add even more, if tuned correctly I wouldn't have to worry about scorching.

 

[disney7]

Trimix, I'm going to try this out. Did you coat the flat wires between the element and the ceramic block and then slide the fiberglass insulation back on?

Any other tips/tricks you learned while assembling yours?

I'm going to build one using 120v and a 12" long tube (less metal to heat and I can't think of any reason I'd need more). I'll report back one what sort of rise rate I get.

My current HERMS setup is a 2000w 120v element in a 1 gallon cooler with as much 1/2" copper coil as can be submersed in it, and a little pump to circulate the water.

It works well with my 5 gallon batches but I'm looking to simplify it. It will be interesting to see what sort of difference there is in efficiency between heating a smaller mass (the IRIMS tube) that will probably lose more heat to the air vs heating a larger mass (8 pounds of water) that is pretty well insulated.

Thanks

 

[TallDan]

I'm going to build one using 120v and a 12" long tube (less metal to heat and I can't think of any reason I'd need more). I'll report back one what sort of rise rate I get.

Very interested to hear what kind of results you have. Please do report back here (or post a link here if you start your own thread).

 

[disney7]

I'll definitely report back. I'm going to test it with the minimal amount of parts necessary to see if the temperature rise rate is sufficient for my needs.

If I determine that it can manage it, my next step will be to add a safety, which I would like some input on.

I'm not worried about the IRIMS tube being overheated and exploding because it will have silicon hose connections at either end and one of those will fail way before the burst pressure of the pipe. Both ends would have to somehow be obstructed internally at the same time in order for a pipe explosion and I don't see that happening. It would make a mess with conductive hot wort, so I plan to make an enclosure that will protect the tube and elements from liquid.

I'm mainly worried about ruining a batch due to the solid state relay failing closed or the sparge/recirc becoming stuck. I use a temperature controller with a PID loop and the temperature sensor is at the return to the mash tun, not at the heating element. So, in either of the cases mentioned above, the wort in the IRIMS tube will be heated at 100%, potentially overcooking the wort and ruining a batch.

I thought about using a temp sensor and controller on the IRIMS pipe and interrupting the control signal to the SSR if the temp goes above a certain setpoint. The nice thing about this is it is a low current setup. The down side is that it wouldn't do any good in the event that the SSR fails closed.

So, I need something that will interrupt the power to the SSR if the temperature at the IRIMS pipe exceeds a set maximum. It would need to be able to handle 20amps. I know I could use a second temperature controller and SSR, but does anyone know of a better way?

 

[disney7]

Well, this thread has kinda died...

Anyway, I'm expecting the rest of my band heaters and the stainless pipe to be delivered today, so I should be able to experiment with it soon.

Also, it looks like an Auber temp controller in limit mode with a contactor should take care of any runaway conditions with the heater.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Well, this thread has kinda died...



Anyway, I'm expecting the rest of my band heaters and the stainless pipe to be delivered today, so I should be able to experiment with it soon.



Also, it looks like an Auber temp controller in limit mode with a contactor should take care of any runaway conditions with the heater.

I'm watching, good luck. I have some refinements to the PVC protector in the works.

 

[disney7]

I just did a wiring test with 7 of the 300 watt heaters on a 12" extension tube. I capped one end and filled it with water, left the other end open of course.

So far so good. It heated the tube full of water to almost boiling within a few seconds and I pulled the plug.

Next step is to rig up a little stand that will protect the band heaters and wiring from any spills and run a test with 8 gallons of circulating water.

If that works well, I'll need to find a box that I can seal the band heaters, tube, and wiring in while exposing the tri-clover fittings on the outside. That should help with insulation and protect the electrical parts from any spills.

 

[disney7]

I just completed a wet test. The setup was:

8 gallons of water circulating through my boil kettle (whirlpool). My March 815 pump was set to half throttle and I use 1/2" silicone lines. The IRIMS devices was a 12" tri-clover extension tube with 7 x 300 watt 120v band heaters.

This was not a simulation of my mash. The water volume was a couple of gallons more than my usual mash and I was using my boil kettle. Also, I didn't cover the kettle (my mash tun is covered during mashes). The IRIMS heater was not insulated.

I'm a bit disappointing in the results, but I don't think all hope is lost yet.

I ran two runs with the IRIMS and found that it could only maintain temperatures at 100%. My test runs were for 10 minutes each.

My existing HERMS device (An insulated 1 gallon cooler with a 2kW element and 1/2" copper coil submersed in the water) was able to raise the temperature of the entire mass of water by 4.3 F in 10 minutes.

I repeated each test twice.

I'm going to build an insulated box for the IRIMS device and see how much difference that makes. I would say my HERMS setup has a significant advantage since not much heat is lost to the atmosphere compared to the way I tested the IRIMS setup.

If I can get the same performance as my existing setup, I'll switch over just for the simpler and more compact setup.

But its looking like you will need more power than is available with 120v if you want to do any serious step mashes.

 

[TallDan]

I just completed a wet test. The setup was:

8 gallons of water circulating through my boil kettle (whirlpool). My March 815 pump was set to half throttle and I use 1/2" silicone lines. The IRIMS devices was a 12" tri-clover extension tube with 7 x 300 watt 120v band heaters.

This was not a simulation of my mash. The water volume was a couple of gallons more than my usual mash and I was using my boil kettle. Also, I didn't cover the kettle (my mash tun is covered during mashes). The IRIMS heater was not insulated.

I'm a bit disappointing in the results, but I don't think all hope is lost yet.

I ran two runs with the IRIMS and found that it could only maintain temperatures at 100%. My test runs were for 10 minutes each.

My existing HERMS device (An insulated 1 gallon cooler with a 2kW element and 1/2" copper coil submersed in the water) was able to raise the temperature of the entire mass of water by 4.3 F in 10 minutes.

I repeated each test twice.

I'm going to build an insulated box for the IRIMS device and see how much difference that makes. I would say my HERMS setup has a significant advantage since not much heat is lost to the atmosphere compared to the way I tested the IRIMS setup.

If I can get the same performance as my existing setup, I'll switch over just for the simpler and more compact setup.

But its looking like you will need more power than is available with 120v if you want to do any serious step mashes.

Disappointing, but not unexpected, honestly. It would be nice if insulation made the difference, but i suspect it still won't be nearly as efficient as the usual RIMS tube.

 

[BrunDog]

I think insulation is the key here. Mashes don't need much heat input even for stepping, but your system can't bleed off heat faster than it is generated by the tube. Cover your kettle and try again, and that alone would make a big difference, I bet. Insulate the rest and you should be good to go.

-BD

 

[dkmag]

Nice idea!

Along with insulating, you might want to consider creating some turbulence within the TC tube. Maybe get some stainless 16 gauge (or larger) wire and make a coil (like a big spring) with a diameter that is roughly the ID of the TC tube and have the coil run the length of the tube. You want the flow to be turbulent and not laminar within the tube.

 

[BrunDog]

I agree. Hot enough and you will get local boiling.

-BD

 

[TallDan]

Nice idea!

Along with insulating, you might want to consider creating some turbulence within the TC tube. Maybe get some stainless 16 gauge (or larger) wire and make a coil (like a big spring) with a diameter that is roughly the ID of the TC tube and have the coil run the length of the tube. You want the flow to be turbulent and not laminar within the tube.

Seems like a 1/2" inlet and output attached to a 1" or larger TC tube would cause plenty of turbulence, no?

 

[orangehero]

Did you consider wrapping a TC spool with an induction coil?

 

[trimixdiver1]

Yea I never said this was efficient. If you want efficiency, go buy a case of beer.

For me I wanted a method that:

Works
Doesn't scorch wort
More efficient than Herms
Can step mash faster than Herms
Don't have to clean between brews
Easily expandable

I think IRIMS is a good compromise between rims and Herms.

My next improvement will be:

Header wrap to get 2-3 layers.
Wrap with rock wool insulation
Put a water resistant cap on the top of the PVC to make it splash proof.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Did you consider wrapping a TC spool with an induction coil?

The spool is non ferrous so no on that, I thought of it though. Would need a sleeve clamped over the outside.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yea I never said this was efficient. If you want efficiency, go buy a case of beer.

For me I wanted a method that:

Works
Doesn't scorch wort
More efficient than Herms
Can step mash faster than Herms
Don't have to clean between brews
Easily expandable

I think IRIMS is a good compromise between rims and Herms.

My next improvement will be:

Header wrap to get 2-3 layers.
Wrap with rock wool insulation
Put a water resistant cap on the top of the PVC to make it splash proof.

Good points but my long stainless cartridge heater rims tube hits all that criteria as well... and it was efficiently cheap to build and requires only 1800w to operate.

Pulling it apart after brewing revealed absolutely ZERO buildup of any kind on the element due to its long length (36") and ULWD (gradual gentle heating as the wort travels the 36" length with the 5/8" element in the 1" tube providing good heating contact) ... and I get a 2 degree rise per minute out of it..

Please dont think I'm trying to rain on your parade, I'm sure your setup works fantastic as well.
I just feel its worth mentioning there are more than one way to accomplish those goal and avoid the "limitations" of the traditional rims setups people warn against...
I think my longer narrow setup is also a good compromise between a traditional rims and herms with the benefits of each. I know im not the first to attempt is and am surprised its not more common actually.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Good points but my long stainless cartridge heater rims tube hits all that criteria as well... and it was efficiently cheap to build and requires only 1800w to operate.

Pulling it apart after brewing revealed absolutely ZERO buildup of any kind on the element due to its long length (36") and ULWD (gradual gentle heating as the wort travels the 36" length with the 5/8" element in the 1" tube providing good heating contact) ... and I get a 2 degree rise per minute out of it..

Please dont think I'm trying to rain on your parade, I'm sure your setup works fantastic as well.
I just feel its worth mentioning there are more than one way to accomplish those goal and avoid the "limitations" of the traditional rims setups people warn against...
I think my longer narrow setup is also a good compromise between a traditional rims and herms with the benefits of each. I know im not the first to attempt is and am surprised its not more common actually.

Yep, great point. Just another option to fit your needs. Like you said it's about the right solution to fit your needs. Each has their plus and minuses.

 

[orangehero]

The spool is non ferrous so no on that, I thought of it though. Would need a sleeve clamped over the outside.

Are your spools not 304 grade?

 

[trimixdiver1]

are your spools not 304 grade?

316

 

[trimixdiver1]

So I added a fernco 4" cap to the top. Cut a 1" hole and made 2 slits so I could get it over the triclamp flange. Will glue it back together.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1436448581.696031.jpg

Wrapped the heaters in header tape, the ring at the top is extra header tape I'm using as a centering ring and plug.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1436448622.853166.jpg

Installed some rock wool insulation between the heaters and the 4" PVC pipe.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1436448762.039489.jpg

 

[trimixdiver1]

Any updates?

 

[disney7]

Any updates?

I haven't had a chance to work on it any more (life keeps interrupting me).

I hope to be able to insulate the foo out of it and test again in a few days.

 

[beernutz]

Then everything is HERMS. These acronyms are far from what you would put on a product but give guys a way to explain it.

I call it IRIMS, so be it. Call it whatever you want, it works much faster than HERMS ( I originally had it and didn't work fast enough for me) In the spirit of homebrew acronyms it's closer to RIMS. As a vet and someone who has stayed in jobs where acronyms where what we spoke, I guess I could do better.

Mash Recirculating Line External Band Step Heater. MRLEBSH

Mash Recirculating Killer Newfangled Infusion Straps Heater - MRKNISH

 

[trimixdiver1]

Insulation is the key here. My 4500w setup is working great! I'm getting 1-1.3 deg per minute at flow of 1-1.5 gpm.

 

[Weezy]

Insulation is the key here. My 4500w setup is working great! I'm getting 1-1.3 deg per minute at flow of 1-1.5 gpm.

How much water in the tun?