Consistently falling short of OG on Anvil Foundry

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Presbrewterian Pastor

Man’s sweat + God’s love = Beer
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Hi all,

I've done three batches on my 120V 10.5g Anvil, all BIAB. I keep falling short on OG. I'll use my most recent brew (here) as an example. Expected OG 1.053; actual 1.037. A few notes: 60 minute mash at 149-151. I did not sparge. I recirculated the mash with a pump. I gave the mash a gentle stir every 15 minutes or so. I didn't check pre-boil OG. None of the boils on the three batches have been very vigorous at all. I thought that might be the issue but then I came across this Brulosophy exbeeriment that found little difference between boil / no boil OG and a barely statistical difference in the triangle test. What the heck am I doing wrong?
 
There is a massive thread here which has a lot of info. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/anvil-foundry-all-grain-brewing-system.666090/

At the very least, it is worth skimming through as the problems you mention are common themes with the system. Things I've changed since purchasing the system.

1. I brew in a bag inside of the malt pipe.
2. I grind my own grain and verify to 1.033? with a feeler gauge prior to every grinding session.
3. I lift up the basket up 15-20 minutes during the mash to mix everything up vs. just giving the grains a stir inside of the basket.
4. I sparge
5. I check my water pH (which I've just recently given up on because the Kegland pH meter I had was a POS. It would give a different reading almost immediately after calibrating to just 4, then I decided to calibrate to both 4 & 7, same behavior and this is with a new sensor. I'm on the fence about whether I should purchase a new/different meter.)

I didn't start doing all those things at the same time, but that is where I'm currently at. I used to fall short on gravity all the time, and it drove me freekin bonkers and I was always adding DME.
 
Unfortunately, you haven't given us enough information to do anything but speculate. It is relatively easy to diagnose where a low efficiency issue originates, IF you have collected the necessary data. Since you didn't even take a pre-boil SG reading, it is doubtful that you recorded the other necessary data. To see what data you should be taking, if you want to understand what's going on with your efficiency, check out this post.

That being said, @Knightshade has given you a number of suggestions that may help. Item #3, lifting and lowering the basket occasionally during the mash, is a simple way to homogenize the wort in an AOI, which needs to be done before taking any SG readings of the mash, and will also improve your lauter efficiency some.

Brew on :mug:
 
The only hint so far is that your boil isn't that vigorous, which is unfortunately subjective, but some questions:

Are you turning your recipe into a "batch" by pressing the beer mug icon and then filling out all the real time data during the brew?

1736219294770.png


Filling all that in is the key to troubleshooting batches and dialing in future batches. Record everything.. volumes, temps, gravities at all stages.

For example, the Anvil 6.5 profile has an expected boil off rate of 1/2 a gallon per hour. Is that what you say happen? If you boiled off less, it accounts for at least some of the lower gravity.

Preboil gravity (in a no sparge this is the mash wort gravity as well) should be measured before you do anything with the mash. If you're short there, you'll be short later. Extend the mash time if needed. Ramp the temp slowly up if needed.

Based on your continued experience, it would also tell you that you're getting lower mash efficiency and that is your indication to edit your equipment profile with the lower efficiency numbers (as measured, not as expected). That way, you don't MISS someone else's numbers anymore but you'll HIT YOUR numbers.

The most likely culprit is the grain crush. Where are you getting the grain
 
Agreed on the lift & lower. There's a LOT of water outside of the pipe (about 30% of that cross sectional area) that doesn't naturally get mixed in. That was a big one for me.

I can't speak to that calculator, but it's an excellent place to look. As is your OG measurement - it's probably good, but be sure you're reading correctly and with the correct tool (and temperature), and that your wort is well mixed.

Grain crush is also an excellent point, and a common issue.

It's not the boil itself, but how much you boil off, that is also important. If you don't have a good boil, you won't evaporate as much, and then it'll be less "thick" afterwards. You'll need to look into those details as well and perhaps lower your boil-off rate in the calculator.

There are a lot of things it could be! Share more, you'll get help. Might need another batch or two as well after you know more about what to look for.
 
Have you double checked your mash temp with a handheld thermometer?

Because the Anvil 120v doesn’t have a vigorous boil, I find that the wort gets stratified. I’ll give it a good stir before I take a reading.

You didn’t say how you took your gravity reading. I rarely use a refractometer for beer anymore. I find that with all the particulates in wort, readings can be unreliable. So with beer I’ve been pulling a sample and chilling it in an ice bath to get it down to temp and using a hydrometer.
I still use the refractometer for cider and mead though.

I love my anvil aio and for the most part my gravity has been what’s expected.
 
I rarely use a refractometer for beer anymore. I find that with all the particulates in wort, readings can be unreliable.

After thoroughly mixing the wort, I scoop some out with an espresso cup and after a minute dump it into yet another espresso cup. I keep them in a nearby chilled frig to help things cool off fairly quickly. I agree about the particulates but if I let it sit in that second cup for a bit, they settle out pretty fast and the reading is accurate. "A bit" is like 10 minutes while I am doing other things.

If you have the 10 minutes, give it a try. It does require some time though so it depends on your needs. For me my process is reliable enough that it's more for informational purposes and future tweaks, I tend to be pretty close to predicted so I don't desire an immediate reading that I'd take action from.

The espresso cups work to get a few drops of wort for the refractometer, and also to stick the pH probe into. Shot glasses work well for this too.

Hopefully not too far off topic, may pertain to the lower FG readings? Although suspended particles might make the reading artificially high so perhaps not.
 
Are you using software to create your recipes? All software has an equipment profile that has to be tweaked and dialed-in if you want accurate estimates. If you are consistently low on your OG then I am willing to bet your equipment profile needs attention.
Yes, the shared link was his recipe file on BrewFather. One of the problems is that these software packages come with equipment profiles built in for all the common systems and they're filled in with some best approximations. It gives every subsequent user the idea that they are doing something wrong if they don't see the exact same numbers. Built in profiles are starting points.
 
The only hint so far is that your boil isn't that vigorous, which is unfortunately subjective, but some questions:

Are you turning your recipe into a "batch" by pressing the beer mug icon and then filling out all the real time data during the brew?

View attachment 866233

Filling all that in is the key to troubleshooting batches and dialing in future batches. Record everything.. volumes, temps, gravities at all stages.

For example, the Anvil 6.5 profile has an expected boil off rate of 1/2 a gallon per hour. Is that what you say happen? If you boiled off less, it accounts for at least some of the lower gravity.

Preboil gravity (in a no sparge this is the mash wort gravity as well) should be measured before you do anything with the mash. If you're short there, you'll be short later. Extend the mash time if needed. Ramp the temp slowly up if needed.

Based on your continued experience, it would also tell you that you're getting lower mash efficiency and that is your indication to edit your equipment profile with the lower efficiency numbers (as measured, not as expected). That way, you don't MISS someone else's numbers anymore but you'll HIT YOUR numbers.

The most likely culprit is the grain crush. Where are you getting the grain
Thais is a huge help, thank you! That was my first time using Brewfather and no, I didn’t turn the recipe into a batch. The other thing I noticed from your comment is that I have my system listed as a 6.5 rather than 10.5. I get the grain from Northern Brewer. I also wondered about the crush so i took a picture. Thanks again.
 

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Thais is a huge help, thank you! That was my first time using Brewfather and no, I didn’t turn the recipe into a batch. The other thing I noticed from your comment is that I have my system listed as a 6.5 rather than 10.5. I get the grain from Northern Brewer. I also wondered about the crush so i took a picture. Thanks again.
In that photo it hardly looks crushed - looks like a lot of intact kernels, which is not good. Can you spread the pile out into something like a "mono-layer" and take another photo, so we can be sure about the crush?

Brew on :mug:
 
In addition to checking with a handheld thermometer make sure that it is also calibrated. I had an issue in the past where the thermometer was giving an incorrect reading. I know that my temperature reading from the Anvil is about 2F lower then my calibrated handheld thermometer.

Another thing to make sure if that your mash efficiency is set to something like 65-66% which is what I use. That is about all I can get/expect from my setup.
 
I use a hydrometer once wort is chilled and use
Have you double checked your mash temp with a handheld thermometer?

Because the Anvil 120v doesn’t have a vigorous boil, I find that the wort gets stratified. I’ll give it a good stir before I take a reading.

You didn’t say how you took your gravity reading. I rarely use a refractometer for beer anymore. I find that with all the particulates in wort, readings can be unreliable. So with beer I’ve been pulling a sample and chilling it in an ice bath to get it down to temp and using a hydrometer.
I still use the refractometer for cider and mead though.

I love my anvil aio and for the most part my gravity has been what’s expected.

In that photo it hardly looks crushed - looks like a lot of intact kernels, which is not good. Can you spread the pile out into something like a "mono-layer" and take another photo, so we can be sure about the crush?

Brew on :mug:
Can do later. I'm supposed to be working right now!
 
Are you recirculating with their pump?

I have the 6.5. I crush my grain myself with an old JSP malt mill thats probably almost getting on antique status. I use the basket, no bag. I do not lift the basket or do any stirring unless I get some kind of stuck mash. After an hour mash and recirculating with their pump I drain to my brewpot. I do sparge just by pouring the sparge water on top after about a gallon has drained off.

I am getting around 81% efficiency by my recipes in Beertools.

I don’t know what differences may come into play with the 10.5
 
When you make recipes for the Foundry you have to take into account that there is an extra amount of water that sits under the basket that is not wetting grain, especially if you are not recirculating.

In my case, if I have 8 lbs of grain in the basket I figure 8 * 1.5 = 12 qts for mash in PLUS I have to add an extra gallon for the space under the basket, so its 16 qts or 4 gallons to mash in. Then when I figure sparge water, I’ll collect 8 quarts off the mash and I want 16, so I’m 2 gallons short. But its really only one gallon, because of that extra gallon.

If that makes sense.
 
That grain is BARELY cracked. A balance needs to be struck such there are no intact seeds but you don't want it to be pure flour either. I'm continually baffled by how Northern Brewer and Morebeer send "crushed" grain out like that.

Pick a vendor that actually crushes the grain and try getting your boil off rate a little higher.
 
try getting your boil off rate a little higher.
Since you have relatively little power available on a 120V unit, about the only way to increase the boil-off rate is to insulate the outside of the vessel. Whatever you save in heat lost thru the walls of the vessel will go towards increased boil-off rate.

Brew on :mug:
 
If the entire grist looked like that photo I am surprised you got 1.037! That should be your first area to fix. If you like and want to commit to the Foundry, I would take the steps to get rid of the malt pipe. The whole 'wort outside the pipe' thing is just a pain. Get the Brewzilla 35L false bottom or any other false bottom folks have listed as fitting the Foundry and have Wilserbrewer make you a custom bag. It is so much better and easier to clean.

For reference, I full volume mash. I usually start with 11ish pounds of grain with 8.25 gallons of water to get 12-12.5 plato beers. My crush is with a .40 mill gap so fairly coarse. I use and like the Anvil pump because you do not need horsepower for recirculating. I actually have a controller to slow the pump down instead of using tubing restriction. (less shear stress on the wort).
 
There is a massive thread here which has a lot of info. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/anvil-foundry-all-grain-brewing-system.666090/

At the very least, it is worth skimming through as the problems you mention are common themes with the system. Things I've changed since purchasing the system.

1. I brew in a bag inside of the malt pipe.
2. I grind my own grain and verify to 1.033? with a feeler gauge prior to every grinding session.
3. I lift up the basket up 15-20 minutes during the mash to mix everything up vs. just giving the grains a stir inside of the basket.
4. I sparge
5. I check my water pH (which I've just recently given up on because the Kegland pH meter I had was a POS. It would give a different reading almost immediately after calibrating to just 4, then I decided to calibrate to both 4 & 7, same behavior and this is with a new sensor. I'm on the fence about whether I should purchase a new/different meter.)

I didn't start doing all those things at the same time, but that is where I'm currently at. I used to fall short on gravity all the time, and it drove me freekin bonkers and I was always adding DME.
I had similar issues with my weak 110v G30, am far far from an expert, but seemed to resolve them by: double crushing when possible, using more water (1/2 gal +/-) than called for in the GF ap, using 5-2 ph stabilizer, adding amalyse enzyme, wait if needed to hit exact mash temps, stirring the mash every 10-15 minutes, squeezing the grain basket while sparging @180f slowly, draining/squeezing the mash very thoroughly, boiling as needed to get to the target volume while delaying additions as neccessary, about 5.75 gallons needed for boil pot and fermentation settling loss to fill the five gallon keg. Takes extra time but seems to resolve my previous issues.
 
These units are designed to be simple. If you have to do a lot of actions, then something is off somewhere. Work out your crush size based upon how much you can 'get away with' in your draining/lautering. Then the amount of water and grain needed for the effectiveness of your mash. Stirring does help the mash efficiency. But in the end, if everything is done well, just add some more grain. These coffee urn units are not the most efficient mashing devices. But mash efficiency is not a contest.
 
Since you have relatively little power available on a 120V unit, about the only way to increase the boil-off rate is to insulate the outside of the vessel. Whatever you save in heat lost thru the walls of the vessel will go towards increased boil-off rate.

Brew on :mug:
My assumption is that he's regulating the power downward. That is only a 3.5 gallon batch. A 1500 watt element should be able to rip it pretty good.
 
My assumption is that he's regulating the power downward. That is only a 3.5 gallon batch. A 1500 watt element should be able to rip it pretty good.
It's possible, but OP said this: "None of the boils on the three batches have been very vigorous at all." If OP thought their boils were underwhelming, why would they be regulating the power down?

@Presbrewterian Pastor , are you boiling at full power, or cutting the power back during boil?

Brew on :mug:
 
It's possible, but OP said this: "None of the boils on the three batches have been very vigorous at all." If OP thought their boils were underwhelming, why would they be regulating the power down?

@Presbrewterian Pastor , are you boiling at full power, or cutting the power back during boil?

Brew on :mug:
full power.
 
I agree. Low OG factors are normally a combination of 1: Grain milled poorly B: Too much water.
I use a Grainfather and I have to take their water volumes for mash and sparge as more guidelines than exact quantities. If it calls for a total of 7 gallons, i will use about 6.75. I think the boil off estimates are higher in the default software settings than what you really get.

I realize you are using Anvil, but I think the same issues may apply.
 
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full power.

I missed the 3.5 gallon thing. You won't get a crazy boil, but it should be decent. Make sure your switch on the side is set for 100, not 240, or it'll lower how much power you are using by quite a bit.

I'm sure you're at 100% power for boiling, but you may want to be sure of that.

Also if you're on a long extension cord or something you might not be getting as much to the unit as you would if you were plugged into a wall outlet directly. And even then it might not be 100% up to the job.
 
Make sure you're setting the temp to 212F to force it into boil mode.

Honestly this whole boil thing is a side conversation to the actual problem you've been having. The grain was not crushed well enough. Change suppliers.
Or better yet! Splurge and get your own grain mill. ( really not that expensive TBH) My efficiency on my Foundry went from the high 60s to consistently around 80 once I started crushing my own grain! 🍻
 
I'm not suggesting that owning a grain mill is a bad thing, but the payback is pretty long if you buy a quality mill. If you find yourself unable to source grain from a supplier that mills grain how you like it/need it consistently, it becomes a bigger necessity. Another reason is if you buy bulk grain due to challenged access to per-batch grain, such as no local home brew supply. 95% of my regular customers buy grain pre-milled because they can request it exactly how they want it.

Someone will bring up how much cheaper it is to buy grain in bulk, but as someone that was once just an eager homebrewer turned purveyor of grain, it's not that simple. Once you stockpile a bunch of different grains, which seems like the obvious thing to do after buying a mill, now you have to manage inventory and you will throw grain out due to age.
 
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