IPA's lacking?

[TheCondor]

Hey all, I love a good hoppy IPA. Unfortunately I can't seem to brew one. My last recipe was a simcoe smash. All 2 row malt. Hop schedule was 1 oz at 60, 2 oz at 5, 2 oz at flameout and dry hopped with 2 oz. I used all ro water and adjusted using gypsum, calcium chloride and Epsom salt. I used Ez water for the following values.
Ca-112
Mg-10
Na-0
Cl-54
SO4-245
Original Gravity was 1.052 and finished at 1.006. I kegged the beer and dry hopped in the keg at room temp for about 4 days before sticking in the fridge. (Hops still in the keg). It has been on co2 for about 2 weeks and just pulled the first glass off tonight. Hops are muted and no real hop aroma. I have brewed a few ipas before and dry hopped with different hops, including citra, cascade and centinnenial. To me they all have the same aroma and no where close to where I want them to be. Any thoughts or techniques I should try?

 

[ong]

Have you tried a hopstand yet? My usual hop schedule for IPAs is a bittering addition at 60 to hit my target IBUs, then start cooling, get down to 180, then 3-6 oz for 40 minutes. Then dry hop/keg hop as needed.

 

[crusader1612]

Hey all, I love a good hoppy IPA. Unfortunately I can't seem to brew one. My last recipe was a simcoe smash. All 2 row malt. Hop schedule was 1 oz at 60, 2 oz at 5, 2 oz at flameout and dry hopped with 2 oz. I used all ro water and adjusted using gypsum, calcium chloride and Epsom salt. I used Ez water for the following values.
Ca-112
Mg-10
Na-0
Cl-54
SO4-245
Original Gravity was 1.052 and finished at 1.006. I kegged the beer and dry hopped in the keg at room temp for about 4 days before sticking in the fridge. (Hops still in the keg). It has been on co2 for about 2 weeks and just pulled the first glass off tonight. Hops are muted and no real hop aroma. I have brewed a few ipas before and dry hopped with different hops, including citra, cascade and centinnenial. To me they all have the same aroma and no where close to where I want them to be. Any thoughts or techniques I should try?

Can you descibe at all what your tasting?
Wiuth that sort ofhop schedule, there should be some hop flavour present.
the hops should though taste very different.

I suspect if your getting the same flavour that you might be picking up some diacetyl in your beer. that would probably explain all your differnet hopped beers tasting the same.
the beer will essentially taste overly sweet, considering the low FG and minimal crystal malts.
Other tasting notes for this fault including buttered popcorn, butterscotch, and a silky coating mouthfeel on the roof of your mouth (Like grease, or liquid butter)

also, as suggested do a hop stand. turn flame off - add hops - let sit for 20 mins -= then chill.

 

[SunnyDownSnuff]

I'll add my voice to the hop stand, also suggest stirring w/ a paddle for a whirlpool effect. Also might try dry hopping right in the fermenter, leave that in for a week, then keg, and let it simmer in the keg a bit longer than you have in the past. Good luck!!!

 

[TheCondor]

I have done a hop stand before and also dry hopped exclusively in the fermentor. Where would I pick up the diacetyl?

 

[crusader1612]

Diacetyl is a yeast and fermentation issue.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Get the freshest hops you can. Make sure they are vac sealed. Use them straight out of the pack.

 

[brick_haus]

If Diacetyl:
How do you aerate your wort when pitching yeast?
Are you giving the yeast time to "finish"?
Is your pitching rate correct?
Sanitation issues can cause this also.

Possibly Oxidation:
A very serious issue with hoppy beers that will cause very similar symptoms to those that you are describing, read up on this...

 

[TheHopfather]

7oz IPA? More hops, the answer to these IPA threads is pretty much always more hops. I'd start by doubling the hop stand and dry hop addition before I started to worry if the problem was yeast or water related. The later you are adding hops in the process the more hops you need to add.

If you don't want to up the hops I'd look at oxidation. Oxygen kills hoppy beers fast. Fill the keg with StarSan, push the StarSan out with CO2, rack the beer into the keg with the tubing all the way to the bottom to avoid splashing (provided you don't have a way to do fully closed transfers). Once full purge the keg with CO2. There is a chart floating around here somewhere showing that you need 11 purge cycles at 30 PSI to get the keg down to 0.01 ppm of O2.

2 weeks might be a bit long to wait to try an IPA, especially if you have oxidation issues. Try kegging the beer, purge, set your regulator to 30 PSI for 24 hours, drop to serving pressure for 24 more hours and then drink. I'd wait a week at most before sampling. If the beer is hoppy 4 days after kegging and quickly drops off you can be confident you have oxidation issues.

Edit: Just noticed you are doing a flameout rather than hop stand addition. Try the hopstand, drop the wort temp down to ~170F, add hops for a 30 min stand, stir the wort every 10 min or so. Don't be shy with the hops! Remember that IBU's <> hop flavor.

 

[TravelingLight]

When I first started brewing IPAs, they were solid but were lacking the hop punch in the nose I wanted. A few things I've changed have made a massive difference in my IPAs (and some/most/all of these have been mentioned in this thread):

Hopstand/Whirlpool. After my 60 minute bittering charge, virtually all of my hop additions have moved to FO and/or WP/HS. And depending on the hop(s) I'm using, plenty of times I'll WP/HS for up to 30 minutes. Also keep in mind many hops volatize (can't remember if that's the right word?) at different temperatures, i.e., the aromatic hop oils "burn off," for lack of a better term, at different temperatures. For example, my last IPA had a HS of Citra and Nelson. Nelson's oils burn off at much lower temps than Citra. Therefore, I did basically a two stage hopstand, putting the Citra in first and steeping for a half hour or so, but then the temps were down to what I wanted for Nelson so I threw those in and let it ride another 20-30 minutes.

More hops. Definitely up the hop additions, particularly for dry hopping. I've dry hopped as short as 5 days and as long as 7 or 8 days. Never had any ill effects. Lately I've been doing stages of dry hopping. Like throw in my first dry hop charge, let it go 4 or 5 days, then throw some more in. Granted, depending on the amount you're using, be sure and account for that volume-wise. A massive dry hop will soak up a decent amount of beer.

Closed Transfers. Honestly, I think this has made the biggest difference. I just started doing these but I don't know if I will ever use a siphon again. From the moment I put in the first dry hops, my beer does not see oxygen again until I'm pouring it from the tap into my glass. I go from carboy to keg in a closed system, pushing with CO2 (myriad of threads on this around here). I am firmly convinced this is one of the primary methods commercial brews maintain that aggressive hop nose punch. Absolutely recommend closed transfers.

 

[TheCondor]

I aerate by shaking the carboy by hand, not the best practice but that's what I'm working with. I usually leave in primary for about 2 weeks and verify by two hydrometer readings a day apart. I always use a 1.5l starter at 1.040. I'm pretty good with sanitation, no infections. I have tried the hopstand method before. Chilled to 180 and dumped in a few ounces for about half an hour. Same result. I have also tried a "closed" system transfer using a auto siphon into the outpost on the keg. I got a lot of bubbles in the line and it took forever. (Yes I had the prv open on the lid). I usually purge the keg about 10 times with 30 psi right after I transfer.


Edit- all my other beers, light and dark usually taste good. Just not hoppy ones.

 

[TheCondor]

When I first started brewing IPAs, they were solid but were lacking the hop punch in the nose I wanted. A few things I've changed have made a massive difference in my IPAs (and some/most/all of these have been mentioned in this thread):

Hopstand/Whirlpool. After my 60 minute bittering charge, virtually all of my hop additions have moved to FO and/or WP/HS. And depending on the hop(s) I'm using, plenty of times I'll WP/HS for up to 30 minutes. Also keep in mind many hops volatize (can't remember if that's the right word?) at different temperatures, i.e., the aromatic hop oils "burn off," for lack of a better term, at different temperatures. For example, my last IPA had a HS of Citra and Nelson. Nelson's oils burn off at much lower temps than Citra. Therefore, I did basically a two stage hopstand, putting the Citra in first and steeping for a half hour or so, but then the temps were down to what I wanted for Nelson so I threw those in and let it ride another 20-30 minutes.

More hops. Definitely up the hop additions, particularly for dry hopping. I've dry hopped as short as 5 days and as long as 7 or 8 days. Never had any ill effects. Lately I've been doing stages of dry hopping. Like throw in my first dry hop charge, let it go 4 or 5 days, then throw some more in. Granted, depending on the amount you're using, be sure and account for that volume-wise. A massive dry hop will soak up a decent amount of beer.

Closed Transfers. Honestly, I think this has made the biggest difference. I just started doing these but I don't know if I will ever use a siphon again. From the moment I put in the first dry hops, my beer does not see oxygen again until I'm pouring it from the tap into my glass. I go from carboy to keg in a closed system, pushing with CO2 (myriad of threads on this around here). I am firmly convinced this is one of the primary methods commercial brews maintain that aggressive hop nose punch. Absolutely recommend closed transfers.

My dry hop in the last batch was done in the keg, I racked on top of the hops and purged.

 

[brick_haus]

Try purging your keg (completely) with CO2 before (and after) transfer.
Dry hop in the fermentor without letting any air into the vessel, I always inject co2 into the vessel before opening it up and keep positive co2 pressure on it until I close it back up.
I usually let my IIPAs stay in primary for three weeks + to reduce diacetyl.

Don't underestimate the importance of eliminating oxygen (air) exposure after initially pitching with these hoppy beers.

 

[TravelingLight]

My dry hop in the last batch was done in the keg, I racked on top of the hops and purged.

FWIW, my current beer (which is the best IPA I've done yet, especially w/r/t hop nose) was dry hopped in the fermenter with pellets AND keg hopped with leaf hops. I'm a big fan of doing both.

 

[TravelingLight]

Try purging your keg (completely) with CO2 before (and after) transfer.
Dry hop in the fermentor without letting any air into the vessel, I always inject co2 into the vessel before opening it up and keep positive co2 pressure on it until I close it back up.
I usually let my IIPAs stay in primary for three weeks + to reduce diacetyl.

Don't underestimate the importance of eliminating oxygen (air) exposure after initially pitching with these hoppy beers.

How do you accomplish that? I may have read it wrong. Just curious how you keep positive pressure on it while it's open. But I could be having a brain fart. Haven't had lunch yet!

 

[jddevinn]

I agree that you should look at your cold side oxidation issues. The keg should be purged by filling completely with sanitizer then pushing out with CO2. Unfortunately no good way to dry hop in the keg, best to do it in the fermenter.

 

[brick_haus]

How do you accomplish that? I may have read it wrong. Just curious how you keep positive pressure on it while it's open. But I could be having a brain fart. Haven't had lunch yet!

Just keep co2 going into the fermenter while it's open. I use conical fermenters and connect the co2 to a 1.5" tri clamp ferrule with adapter and insert the hops into the 3" opening adjacent. co2 should be escaping through the 3" during the process eliminating air intrusion.
Your equipment will dictate the procedure to do this, but I have found it to be worth the trouble.

 

[doug293cz]

I agree that you should look at your cold side oxidation issues. The keg should be purged by filling completely with sanitizer then pushing out with CO2. Unfortunately no good way to dry hop in the keg, best to do it in the fermenter.

Not being able to come up with a "good" way to keg hop, here's what I did on my last batch:

1. Fill keg with Star San, and push out with CO2
2. Prepare sanitized hop bag (pellet hops, polyester voile [fine mesh] bag)
3. Open lid, drop in hop bag, and reseal lid as fast as possible
4. Flow purge (at low psi) for ~30 second with CO2 into the beer post
5. Rack beer into keg thru beer post with PRV open
6. 15X purge cycles at 30 psi thru the beer post

Doing the purge cycles thru the beer post was done hoping that the CO2 bubbling thru the beer would help sweep out O2 carried in with the hops. Overall the method uses a lot of CO2, but CO2 is a lot cheaper than hops.

So far I'm really happy with the results. Haven't seen any hop debris in the pours. Beer's only been in the keg 11 days so far, and time will tell how it holds up.

Brew on

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

You just need more hops. Skip the 60 min addition and do something like....

2oz @ 15min
2oz @ 10min
2oz @ flameout
4oz dry hop

People are getting carried away with this O2 thing IMO. Im not saying fixing any oxygen issues won't help and isn't good practice but Ive brewed plenty of juicy hop bombs with a process I cringe at thinking back on it. If you want big hop character then you need to be heavy handed with the hops.

 

[TravelingLight]

You just need more hops. Skip the 60 min addition and do something like....

2oz @ 15min
2oz @ 10min
2oz @ flameout
4oz dry hop

People are getting carried away with this O2 thing IMO. Im not saying fixing any oxygen issues won't help and isn't good practice but Ive brewed plenty of juicy hop bombs with a process I cringe at thinking back on it. If you want big hop character then you need to be heavy handed with the hops.

Care to share the cringe-worthy process? I'm curious. For research sake.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Care to share the cringe-worthy process? I'm curious. For research sake.

Splash like crazy mashing in. Splash like crazy during vorlauf and fly sparge. The wort coming out of my cooler MLT spigot would splash right into the BK. To get wort in the fermenter I'd pour it all through a funnel/cheesecloth squeezing every drop I could from the hops with my bare hands never worrying about any break material whatsoever. Bottling with bucket lid off the whole time(I keg these days). I would whirlpool the beer throughout the bottling process a bunch of times to mix up priming sugar. My first IPA I brought the carboy miles to my friends house to cold crash, rocking and splashing the whole car ride.
Im sure theres more I don't remember but you get the idea. Ive come a long way but I'd be lying if I said I didn't make some great IPAs despite everything I was doing wrong.

 

[jddevinn]

Not being able to come up with a "good" way to keg hop, here's what I did on my last batch:

1. Fill keg with Star San, and push out with CO2
2. Prepare sanitized hop bag (pellet hops, polyester voile [fine mesh] bag)
3. Open lid, drop in hop bag, and reseal lid as fast as possible
4. Flow purge (at low psi) for ~30 second with CO2 into the beer post
5. Rack beer into keg thru beer post with PRV open
6. 15X purge cycles at 30 psi thru the beer post

Doing the purge cycles thru the beer post was done hoping that the CO2 bubbling thru the beer would help sweep out O2 carried in with the hops. Overall the method uses a lot of CO2, but CO2 is a lot cheaper than hops.

So far I'm really happy with the results. Haven't seen any hop debris in the pours. Beer's only been in the keg 11 days so far, and time will tell how it holds up.

Brew on

I've done similar. My standard process now a days is to dry hop in the conical, I've started using a tee triclamp on the lid with the top going to my blow off and the side having a section with a gauge and valve with MFL connection. When it's time to dry up I hook up my "utility" CO2 line I have around that's set to 30ish psi to the MFL and start blasting CO2 into the connection and out the blowoff tube, pull the blow off out, dump hops in and kinda place a blank cap on the tee at the same time as turning off the CO2 valve. Then I'll switch the CO2 line for a low pressure line and leave the fermenter under a couple PSI until racking. If I accidently over pressurize it'll just pop the PRV.

This has worked good..... but I'm also "wasting" a bunch of CO2 :fro:

Splash like crazy mashing in. Splash like crazy during vorlauf and fly sparge. The wort coming out of my cooler MLT spigot would splash right into the BK. To get wort in the fermenter I'd pour it all through a funnel/cheesecloth squeezing every drop I could from the hops with my bare hands never worrying about any break material whatsoever. Bottling with bucket lid off the whole time(I keg these days). I would whirlpool the beer throughout the bottling process a bunch of times to mix up priming sugar. My first IPA I brought the carboy miles to my friends house to cold crash, rocking and splashing the whole car ride.
Im sure theres more I don't remember but you get the idea. Ive come a long way but I'd be lying if I said I didn't make some great IPAs despite everything I was doing wrong.

When I started minding O2 uptake I did notice a change in quality of beer.... and an even bigger change in stability!

 

[TravelingLight]

Splash like crazy mashing in. Splash like crazy during vorlauf and fly sparge. The wort coming out of my cooler MLT spigot would splash right into the BK. To get wort in the fermenter I'd pour it all through a funnel/cheesecloth squeezing every drop I could from the hops with my bare hands never worrying about any break material whatsoever. Bottling with bucket lid off the whole time(I keg these days). I would whirlpool the beer throughout the bottling process a bunch of times to mix up priming sugar. My first IPA I brought the carboy miles to my friends house to cold crash, rocking and splashing the whole car ride.
Im sure theres more I don't remember but you get the idea. Ive come a long way but I'd be lying if I said I didn't make some great IPAs despite everything I was doing wrong.

Yikes. Pretty sobering to look back on the way we used to do things. I've had plenty of dumbassery in the past as well. Brew on brother!

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

When I started minding O2 uptake I did notice a change in quality of beer.... and an even bigger change in stability!

I agree the more you can keep O2 in its place in the process the better. But I don't think the OP is there yet they just need more hops.

Yikes. Pretty sobering to look back on the way we used to do things. I've had plenty of dumbassery in the past as well. Brew on brother!

It's always worth a good laugh that's for sure!

 

[mbbransc]

Hey all, I love a good hoppy IPA. Unfortunately I can't seem to brew one. My last recipe was a simcoe smash.

I stopped reading right here and haven't read any comments, so if this is already been addressed, please skip over this comment.

I think this year's batch of simcoe (available to homebrewers) SUCKS!! I can't get any aroma out of them. I prefer my IPAs to 95% of commercial stuff I can buy but anything I have relied on simcoe for the aroma has been terrible. I too have added additional dry hops and keg hops and I just cannot coax any aroma out of these hops.

If you want to stick with a smash, use mosaic or citra. Money every time.

cheers!

 

[jddevinn]

Yea.... I suppose I took it for granted but I haven't seen anyone ask you for specifics on your hop scheduling.

What varietals did you use? What AA? How old were they? Did you adjust?

What temperature are you serving at?

 

[crusader1612]

I'll agree with the above poster.
Oxidation is a big issue, will mute hops, and bring out unwanted flavours. all of which explain you "all my beers taste the same"

The biggest suspect here is fermentation or process issue.
minimise diacetyl with a rest, and rest early
avoid splashing and rack carefully - under pressure if possible.

more hops doesnt work unless you've identified the root cause.
a similar flavour in all beers sufggest an issue outside of ingredient selection.

also be sure to sanitise correctly and thoroughly.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I'll agree with the above poster.
Oxidation is a big issue, will mute hops, and bring out unwanted flavours. all of which explain you "all my beers taste the same"

The biggest suspect here is fermentation or process issue.
minimise diacetyl with a rest, and rest early
avoid splashing and rack carefully - under pressure if possible.

more hops doesnt work unless you've identified the root cause.
a similar flavour in all beers sufggest an issue outside of ingredient selection.

also be sure to sanitise correctly and thoroughly.

But he never said they all taste the same he said "To me they all have the same aroma and no where close to where I want them to be" and "Edit- all my other beers, light and dark usually taste good. Just not hoppy ones." To me that doesn't sound like an issue with diacetyl it sounds like hops that have lost their mojo or a needed tweak in the hop schedule/hopping rates.

 

[logdrum]

You just need more hops. Skip the 60 min addition and do something like....

2oz @ 15min
2oz @ 10min
2oz @ flameout
4oz dry hop

People are getting carried away with this O2 thing IMO. Im not saying fixing any oxygen issues won't help and isn't good practice but Ive brewed plenty of juicy hop bombs with a process I cringe at thinking back on it. If you want big hop character then you need to be heavy handed with the hops.

While I agree w the more hops mantra, it's been my experience that skipping the 60 min charge leads to quicker hop fading. If your kegs are only lasting 2 weeks, that's not a problem, but I've found some bittering hops helps stabilization. My current strategy is:

1-2 oz.FWH
30-40 IBUs @ 60
F/O
Hop Stand (sometimes 2 stage)
Dry hop (usually 2 stage)

And big yes to eliminating as much o2 as you can. From primary on I employ a (somewhat Appalachian engineered) closed system.

 

[crusader1612]

But he never said they all taste the same he said "To me they all have the same aroma and no where close to where I want them to be" and "Edit- all my other beers, light and dark usually taste good. Just not hoppy ones." To me that doesn't sound like an issue with diacetyl it sounds like hops that have lost their mojo or a needed tweak in the hop schedule/hopping rates.

to me it seems likethere is something not right with the OP's process, or fermentation. Alternatively older hops may make life difficult as well.
but throwing more old hops into the same beer wont make a difference.

the cause needs to be established, before throwing extra hops into beer (they ain't cheap you know).
with 2oz at each stage (I'll assume a 10G batach based on the astonomical bittering charge) should stil give plenty of hop aroma, and betteryet the hop aroma should be different, if Citra or mosaic is used in place of simcoe.
this leads me to believe theres something off. the fact he smells the same things in each hoppy beer is an issue. every hop is very different, which is why we use blends when brewing IPA's or if doing Single hop beer, it is about establish the differences between hop A and hop B.

If your using US-05, there is a higher chance of diacetyl, and obviously the level of diacetyl will depend on your fermentation schedule, and pitch rate.

likewise if your getting oxidation, find the root cause, a crack in a siphon, was one i saw recently, rack in a closed system if possible.

old hops - the obvious fix, obtain fresh hops. if you ever unsure aboutthe quality of hops, or the frhness. either throw them out and buy new ones or test them in boiling water.(Boil a small amount of water and add them) if they smell cheesy, then in the rubbish they go.