IPAs, APAs, & bottling

[kh54s10]

I haven't heard oxidized being described as "sweet". It should be a taste like wet cardboard, though I don't know how people know that. I don't think I have ever tasted wet cardboard.

I also wonder how people are oxidizing their beers so badly.

I autosiphon from the fermenter to a bottling bucket. I then bottle without purging at any point. Same with kegging. My IPAs could probably be better but I wouldn't call them oxidized in a way people say WILL happen. I get no distinct off flavors. I get no degradation over time. The last IPA was cold crashed, blow off tube still attached (not enough Starsan to get sucked back) transferred to a bottling bucket and filled bottles all had caps set on top then all crimped at the end. No oxidation and no degradation. Also probably my best IPA to date.

BTW my brother who drinks mostly commercial (at least until I moved close by) liked it so much, it is the first beer in 106 batches that I am going to attempt to brew exactly the same again.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I haven't heard oxidized being described as "sweet". It should be a taste like wet cardboard, though I don't know how people know that. I don't think I have ever tasted wet cardboard.

I also wonder how people are oxidizing their beers so badly.

I autosiphon from the fermenter to a bottling bucket. I then bottle without purging at any point. Same with kegging. My IPAs could probably be better but I wouldn't call them oxidized in a way people say WILL happen. I get no distinct off flavors. I get no degradation over time. The last IPA was cold crashed, blow off tube still attached (not enough Starsan to get sucked back) transferred to a bottling bucket and filled bottles all had caps set on top then all crimped at the end. No oxidation and no degradation. Also probably my best IPA to date.

BTW my brother who drinks mostly commercial (at least until I moved close by) liked it so much, it is the first beer in 106 batches that I am going to attempt to brew exactly the same again.

Well from what I read it does not need to get to the extreme of "wet cardboard" off flavour to start noticing oxidation effects in hoppy beers. It results in darkening of colour and some loss of bright hop aromas/flavors. In some cases it could also taste sweeter/maltier than it should. Thats what I noticed in a direct comparison of headspace purged vs non purged bottles. I felt also the non purged bottles weren't a bad hoppy beer, by any means. But in a direct comparison the purged ones won.
The colour difference was striking. So alone for this it can be worth taking extra measures if one is going for a light, bright colour.
The taste difference was there but it definitely wad more subtle.

 

[kh54s10]

Well from what I read it does not need to get to the extreme of "wet cardboard" off flavour to start noticing oxidation effects in hoppy beers. It results in darkening of colour and some loss of bright hop aromas/flavors. In some cases it could also taste sweeter/maltier than it should. Thats what I noticed in a direct comparison of headspace purged vs non purged bottles. I felt also the non purged bottles weren't a bad hoppy beer, by any means. But in a direct comparison the purged ones won.

Probably I am getting some oxidation. But it is said that the beer will get darker with age and the off flavor will increase over time. That has never happened with any of my 106 batches.....

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Probably I am getting some oxidation. But it is said that the beer will get darker with age and the off flavor will increase over time. That has never happened with any of my 106 batches.....

Yes, but IME in heavily dry hopped beers the darkening effect appears fairly quickly, and it only gets worse with age. NEIPA seems to be extreme with respect to this phenomenon (but I have yet to brew a true NEIPA so I can't talk from my own experience here).

 

[kh54s10]

Yes, but IME in heavily dry hopped beers the darkening effect appears fairly quickly, and it only gets worse with age. NEIPA seems to be extreme with respect to this phenomenon (but I have yet to brew a true NEIPA so I can't talk from my own experience here).

I haven't tried a NEIPA yet.. Not on the horizon since I have not bought a commercial one that I have liked.... But, it has not been my experience that any of my heavily hopped beers darken at all with age. They may have been slightly darker at the time of packaging. They did not get darker.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I haven't tried a NEIPA yet.. Not on the horizon since I have not bought a commercial one that I have liked.... But, it has not been my experience that any of my heavily hopped beers darken at all with age. They may have been slightly darker at the time of packaging. They did not get darker.

Yeah the thing about darkening with age reflects more what I read than my own experience as well. In that small experiment I mention, I did several replicates and sampled them side by side at different intervals. From 4 weeks post bottling to about 4 months post bottling. The differences between purged/ unpurged variants did not become more severe with time, actually.
My guess is that for this to happen the beer must be more severely oxidized in the first place. Luckily it seems we are able to avoid that

 

[AZBeer]

I know kegging is the best thing, would love to keg also... it's just not going to happen right now. Honestly I don't care that much about the time spent bottling, as I'm currently brewing only about 4 times a year on average ( family, small kids...). One day I'll be hopefully brewing more often, then yeah I'll definitely think about kegging.
As for the process of purging headspaces, I'm doing this only for hoppy beers and it really does not take much extra time. It's like an additional second or two per bottle.

Out of curiosity, how are you purging your bottles?

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Out of curiosity, how are you purging your bottles?

I used "private preserve" gas mixture. The one used by wine pros to protect opened wine bottles from oxidation.
The can comes with a thin straw. I use flip top bottles. I lift the cap just a bit to let the straw in, blow some gas and then seal the cap immediately.
I know it is quite pricey for what it is, but since I am using it only to purge the headspace ( and only for hoppy beers), it is a viable alternative for me at the moment. You really do not need much gas to purge the headspaces.

 

[Miraculix]

Hate to say it, but years ago I moved on to PET bottles and never looked back.

I buy the cheapest sparkling water that comes in plastic bottles, empty them, use the water for brewing and the bottles for beer. No need to sanitise the bottles as they are already clean and a 4g sugar cube fits into the opening of the bottle for easy carbonation. Works for me!

 

[kh54s10]

I used "private preserve" gas mixture. The one used by wine pros to protect opened wine bottles from oxidation.
The can comes with a thin straw. I use flip top bottles. I lift the cap just a bit to let the straw in, blow some gas and then seal the cap immediately.
I know it is quite pricey for what it is, but since I am using it only to purge the headspace ( and only for hoppy beers), it is a viable alternative for me at the moment. You really do not need much gas to purge the headspaces.

Are you using priming sugar or filling from a keg? If priming does that work? I think the yeast need that little oxygen in the headspace to ferment the priming sugar and produce co2. You could be doing more harm than good by purging the headspace in the bottles.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Are you using priming sugar or filling from a keg? If priming does that work? I think the yeast need that little oxygen in the headspace to ferment the priming sugar and produce co2. You could be doing more harm than good by purging the headspace in the bottles.

I'm bottling from a bottling bucket, priming and bottle conditioning as usual. I can guarantee you the headspace purging has absolutely no ill effects on carbonation. As said above I usually get fully carbed beer in less than a week, though I'll wait at least 3 to really start drinking it. But after a week I can already put the bottles in the cellar or fridge, cause carbing is over.

I think at that stage the yeast does really not need that oxygen to do it's job. There is still plenty of yeast in suspension,it does not need to multiply further, only to ferment that little amount of priming sugar.

 

[kh54s10]

I'm bottling from a bottling bucket, priming and bottle conditioning as usual. I can guarantee you the headspace purging has absolutely no ill effects on carbonation. As said above I usually get fully carbed beer in less than a week, though I'll wait at least 3 to really start drinking it. But after a week I can already put the bottles in the cellar or fridge, cause carbing is over.

I think at that stage the yeast does really not need that oxygen to do it's job. There is still plenty of yeast in suspension,it does not need to multiply further, only to ferment that little amount of priming sugar.

,

Maybe, but I don't think that is widely accepted that the yeast do not need oxygen for bottle conditioning.

And I can state unequivocally that not all bottles will be fully carbonated in one week by personal experience. Most will, but not all.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

,

Maybe, but I don't think that is widely accepted that the yeast do not need oxygen for bottle conditioning.

And I can state unequivocally that not all bottles will be fully carbonated in one week by personal experience. Most will, but not all.

If it would indeed need some oxygen, I guess the beer picks up more than enough of it during racking and bottling for the yeast to feast on, whitout needing the headspace O2. And also, I don't believe that by purging the headspace I'm able to eliminate all O2. Maybe 90% of it, but there will be for sure some left.

In any case, I noticed absolutely zero difference in carbonation level between purged/unpurged variants in those side by side comparisons.

Otherwise, I never had a single undercarbed bottle, but I'm storing most bottles in my basement at, depending on season, 57 - 65 F. Of course at those temperatures the carbing/ conditioning process does not stop.

 

[MaxStout]

Once my bottled beers are fully carbed, they all go in the fridge. I have a second fridge just for pop and beer, so plenty o' room. I don't go through the beer very fast and anything I can do to slow down oxidation is a good thing.

I don't purge the bottles or headspace, and 3 month old beers still taste fresh.

 

[zoned_post_meridiem]

Not directly related, and I know your process for cleaning is more sound -- but I've been bottling by just rinsing bottles *right after* pouring, then a few hours before bottling time, I run them through my dishwasher's sanitation cycle. Bottling bucket above the dishwasher, grab a bottle, fill, cap (in batches of 5 or so), and that's it. Saves a lot of time over individual StarSan rinses, and haven't had an infected bottle yet.

 

[kh54s10]

Otherwise, I never had a single undercarbed bottle, but I'm storing most bottles in my basement at, depending on season, 57 - 65 F. Of course at those temperatures the carbing/ conditioning process does not stop.

Temperature only speeds or slows carbonation. And it will stop at any temperature. It stops when all the sugar is consumed. If it didn't stop, every bottle would become a bottle bomb eventually.

Purging may leave enough oxygen to carbonate, I still believe it is better not to do so. But at least I don't think it is worth the effort. But if it works for you.....

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Temperature only speeds or slows carbonation. And it will stop at any temperature. It stops when all the sugar is consumed. If it didn't stop, every bottle would become a bottle bomb eventually.

Purging may leave enough oxygen to carbonate, I still believe it is better not to do so. But at least I don't think it is worth the effort. But if it works for you.....

Yes of course. What I meant is that even if all priming sugar isn't consumed after one week in the 70 F, the yeast will still be able to complete the process when bottles are stored at 57-65 F afterwards.

if it worth the effort or not, it depends how anal one wants to be about his/her process. I freely admit that the benefit was rather subtle (besides on color, that is...there the difference was striking indeed).

 

[kh54s10]

It depends somewhat on which yeast. Some will go dormant at 57 degrees, they carbonation will not continue.

I have never seen any darkening of my beers after they have been bottled. They may have gotten darker through oxidation before bottling but I have never tasted anything off that I would describe as oxidation issues. But then again, my palate is not all that discerning. For me it is more that I like this beer or I don't like this one so much.

Out of 107 batches, one not tasted yet, I have had 2 that were bad. Both were extreme experiments, one never attenuated enough and was extremely sweet (I used 1/2 for cooking before dumping the rest) the other was heavily hopped and remained pea green soup for 2 months, I dumped it without even tasting.

Of all my others I there were only a couple that I didn't like, maybe a dozen that were just so-so. Another dozen that were just good, the rest very good. Most of those I would prefer to commercial craft beers in the $9 - $12 for a six pack range (that is my usual spending limit).

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

It depends somewhat on which yeast. Some will go dormant at 57 degrees, they carbonation will not continue.

Fair enough. My current "house strain" for IPAs/APAs has no problems fermenting down in that temnperature range.
But I'll pay attention to that as soon as I'm trying some new ale yeast.

 

[AZBeer]

Bottled this morning.

Bottled straight from the fermentor, no cold crash. New capper, 50/50 old caps and new caps (not that I think the caps were an issue.

We will see how it goes.

 

[bobeer]

Bottled this morning.

Bottled straight from the fermentor, no cold crash. New capper, 50/50 old caps and new caps (not that I think the caps were an issue.

We will see how it goes.

After reading your OP, and several responses, I really don't think this is an oxidation issue. Unless you're splashing your beer after fermentation, you should be fine there. IDK but it seems in the past few years oxidation has been a growing concern even though hoppy IPAs have been made for a long time without all these oxidation problems. I have never taken such concern, and pretty much half of what I brew are hoppy beers, and I've never had any oxidation issues. Even when I bottled they were all fine and all I tried to do was not splash beer around when packaging.

Seeing you're carbonating naturally and using gelatin beforehand the obvious answer is there's not enough yeast to carbonate the beer. I think what you're doing now will work... IE no gelatin and a new capper. I don't think the caps are the issue either--if anything it was the capper. I have 3 of the same capper, one I bought and 2 were given to me, and the only one that works is the one I bought. The other 2 don't have a good seal. You can, however, cold crash before bottling. You'll still carry over enough yeast to carbonate the beer at the usual carb/conditioning temps.

Good luck! Let us know how it turns out.

 

[AZBeer]

After reading your OP, and several responses, I really don't think this is an oxidation issue. Unless you're splashing your beer after fermentation, you should be fine there. IDK but it seems in the past few years oxidation has been a growing concern even though hoppy IPAs have been made for a long time without all these oxidation problems. I have never taken such concern, and pretty much half of what I brew are hoppy beers, and I've never had any oxidation issues. Even when I bottled they were all fine and all I tried to do was not splash beer around when packaging.

Seeing you're carbonating naturally and using gelatin beforehand the obvious answer is there's not enough yeast to carbonate the beer. I think what you're doing now will work... IE no gelatin and a new capper. I don't think the caps are the issue either--if anything it was the capper. I have 3 of the same capper, one I bought and 2 were given to me, and the only one that works is the one I bought. The other 2 don't have a good seal. You can, however, cold crash before bottling. You'll still carry over enough yeast to carbonate the beer at the usual carb/conditioning temps.

Good luck! Let us know how it turns out.

Interestingly, I was considering yeast last night as well. But from a different perspective. I had been overbuilding starters, then splitting them up. Since I was doing 2.5/ 3gal batches, I would make a 2L starter, split it, then use half and store the other half to use later. I was wondering if that resulted in a lower cell count, and could impact carbonation.

The RIS that I did was from a straight pitched dry yeast, with a cask yeast @ bottling, so that kind of blows that theory out, but something to consider.

Hoping it is the capper.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Yes I agree with bobeer above, and sorry I was at least partially responsible for this thread drifting towards the oxidation topic, which is most probably not your main issue.
Or if it is, then it is likely just a consequence of your beers not carbing properly or the caps not sealing correctly.

Anyway good luck on this batch!

 

[AZBeer]

I am fairly certain that the carb issue was due to the capper. Threw 2 bottles in the fridge earlier this week. First one I popped was about the same, not really carbed up. Tiny little hiss, no carbonation in the beer. I was legit about to text a friend of ours that has been wanting to get into homebrewing and ask if he wanted to buy all of my gear.

Then I popped the second...and Hallelujah! I have carbed beer.

Honestly, it is interesting, after drinking the non-carbed vs the carbed beer back to back, how the carbonation impacts the flavor. Not sure if it's because of the residual sugar in the non-carbed beer or what, but the non-carbed beer has a much sweeter character.

 

[Jordan Logo]

Just keg and you’ll never look back. So much easier and with the time and effort you’ll save you won’t regret it. Look into Torpedo Kegs. Super slim, clean, and most importantly CHEAP! The 2.5g keg is only like $80. I currently have the 1g keg for test batches and the 2.5g keg for my regular house brews!

 

[AZBeer]

Just keg and you’ll never look back. So much easier and with the time and effort you’ll save you won’t regret it. Look into Torpedo Kegs. Super slim, clean, and most importantly CHEAP! The 2.5g keg is only like $80. I currently have the 1g keg for test batches and the 2.5g keg for my regular house brews!

Okay, 2 questions.
1. What all would I need to keg? Simple setup.
2. Would it improve the longevity of my beers? Could I keep a keg around for a couple of months and still have a good beer? I know, what a weird question.

 

[Jordan Logo]

Okay, 2 questions.
1. What all would I need to keg? Simple setup.
2. Would it improve the longevity of my beers? Could I keep a keg around for a couple of months and still have a good beer? I know, what a weird question.

If you’re just doing a small scale setup like a 2.5g keg, all you’d need is the keg (I like the 2.5g torpedo keg), a fridge big enough for it, and the co2 (you can either get a small regulator attachment that will use those cartridges, or you can just get a 5 gallon bottle of co2).

I believe it would last you a month or two but anything longer, I believe any type of beer storage would eventually cause the beer to lose its freshness. But I can finish a 2.5 gallon keg in like 1 or 2 weeks!

 

[kh54s10]

How long the beer will last in the keg depends on the type of beer not the keg. Hoppy beers lose that character over time. A beer like a Russian Imperial Stout could last years in a keg.

 

[RKi]

I had EXACTLY the same issues as you once OP. The solution, increasing batch size to reduce fermenter headspace. I also bought some 2.5 gal fermenters for smaller batches.

I was oxidising all my beer during cold crashing due to creating a vacuum (pv = nrt), essentially sucking air into my FV's (which also had bad seals).

Replacing your airlock with a solid bung (I used a pen lol) helps also.

If i were you, i would crash for 2 days to only 50F. That'll drop the vast majority of the yeast out, whilst reducing the chance of cold crash suck back. It'll also allow the yeast to start bottle refermentation quicker than a cold crash to near freezing. Hopefully consuming oxygen slightly quicker than normal.

It's possible to make great bottle conditioned pale beers. In my opinion the flavours will never be quite as bright as when force carbed though.

 

[tellyho]

You will not have the same beer, hop-wise, after 3 months when bottling. There is no way around this.

I've been brewing in bottles for 13 years and basically resigned myself to this fact. You could brew smaller, more frequent batches. But kegging really is the only solution if you want hoppy beers that stay hoppy.