IPA Recipe Input - Need More Hop Flavor/Aroma

[Tknishi]

Hey guys, I just drank a bottle of my IPA, my first attempt at my own recipe. It came out pretty good, the bittering was right on, but I feel it needs more hop flavor and aroma. I would like to make this again, so I was hoping for some input on when I should up the hop additions or maybe some other techniques to get more flavor and aroma. Recipe below:

7 lbs. Pale LME (3 lbs at beginning of boil, 4 lbs at 15 min.)
1 lbs. Munich LME (15 min)
8 oz. Crystal 10L (steep)
8 oz. Crystal 40L (steep)

Hop Schedule (pellets)
1 oz. Warrior - 60 min.
.5 oz Cascade - 15 min.
.5 oz Citra - 15 min
.5 oz Cascade - 5 min.
.5 oz Citra - 5 min
.5 oz Cascade - 0 min.
.5 oz Citra - 0 min
.5 oz Cascade - dry hop (for 7 days)
.5 oz Citra - dry hop (for 7 days)

This was dry hopped in the primary after 2 weeks of fermentation (I dry hopped in a muslin bag, thinking I should have just dumped it right in). bottled for 2 weeks at room and 1 week in the fridge.

Any input would be appreciated, thanks!

 

[Herky21]

My first reaction is that you need a larger whirlpool addition and a larger dry hop. Make sure to dry hop at room temperature. I think your timeline for brewing might be slightly rushed, but that might be my personal preference as well. However, the presence of more yeast floating can interfere with hop aromas and waiting another week or 2 before dry hop might help that.

Caramel malt also interferes with hop flavor and aroma. You might consider cutting that back a touch. You could also consider dry hopping in 2-stages.

 

[kombat]

That's a pretty weak late/dry hop schedule. If you're really looking to amp up the hop flavour and aroma, I would drastically increase your late/dry hop additions. Cut the 15 and 5 minute additions entirely, throw in 2 ounces each of Cascade and Citra at flameout, then dry hop with another 2 oz each 2 weeks later.

 

[hanuswalrus]

For my IPAs, I like to hop at a rate of 3-4 oz per gallon.

 

[m00ps]

I agree with everyone else who has posted so far. That doesnt scream "IPA" to me. You need a lot more late hops if you want anything remotely close to a commercial quality hop character.

I would not bother with the 15 5 0 min additions. Do your 1oz at 60min, 1-2oz at 10 or 15, and then everythign else in a hopstand. Save 2-4oz for dry hopping. But mostly you will need to triple the amount of hops IMO

 

[Tknishi]

Thanks for the input, I will up the flameout and dry hops the next time.

Does the dry hop in a muslin bag vs dumping it straight in make any difference?

 

[Calder]

Double the hops!

At least 2 ozs at flame out, and 2 ozs dry hop. More will only give you bigger hop flavor ...... if that is what you want (of course it is what you want!).

What do you do with your flame-out hops? I feel this is the most important hop addition. I'm starting to think I should be moving all my dry hops to flame out hop additions ........... Just kidding; I'll just add more hops!!

Seriously, I have found that what you do with flame out hops makes a huge difference, and the results last longer than the dry hop addition. If you just toss them in and cool as fast as you can (which is what was traditionally done), you are just wasting hops. Many people do it differently, but most seem to add the hops sometime after flame out and steep the hops for a long time before cooling.

I don't claim my method is perfect or the best, but does work well for me. I cool the wort to 175 F, then add the flame out hops, and leave them for 60 minutes (stirring occasionally - continuesly would be better). Then cool. I have done 30 minutes, but I really think there is a huge benefit from going the full 60 minutes. It makes the brew day longer, but I don't skimp on the 60 minutes for hoppy beers. There is always something else to be doing while the hops are steeping.


And to answer your question about dry hops and bags. I like the hops to be as free as possible to let the beer get to them. If I use pellets (which I prefer), I just toss them in and then put a straining bag over the inlet of the racking cane to prevent them from getting into the bottling bucket. If I use leaf, I put them in a 5 gallon paint straining bag with marbles to weigh them down, as they tend to sit on top of the beer and you always wonder if they are really contributing anything to it.

 

[xjedifishx]

Thanks for the input, I will up the flameout and dry hops the next time.



Does the dry hop in a muslin bag vs dumping it straight in make any difference?

I have better results will free hops rather than in a bag. I've never had issues racking into my bottling container with trub or hops except for 1 occasion and I just rubber banded a coffee filter around the tip of my racking cane.

I also use a large sum of hops at flameout to get that desired effect from hops but just like anything else in brewing, you learn as you go and make adjustments accordingly haha

 

[Tknishi]

So I tried my luck again with making another IPA. Been in the bottle two weeks, tried it last night, and..........it was ok. Better than the last attempt, but still a little sweet, and I could actually use more hops flavor! I think I need a starter next time or double pitch, I feel like I am under attenuating, which is leading to the sweetness.

Anyhow, open to more critiques to the recipe below:

5 gal batch, 3.5 gal boil.
OG: 1.060
FG: 1.015

6 lbs. Pilsen LME
2 lbs. Pale LME (late addition)
.5 lbs. Crystal 10L
1 tsp. gypsum

1 oz. Warrior - 60 min
2oz. Cascade - 10 min
1 oz. Citra - 10 min
1 oz. Amarillo - 10 min
2oz. Cascade - Flameout/Whirlpool
1 oz. Citra - Flameout/Whirlpool
1 oz. Amarillo - Flameout/Whirlpool
2 oz. Cascade - Dry Hop (for 5 days after primary completed)
2 oz. Citra - Dry Hop (for 5 days after primary completed)

Yeast - WLP001

Other notes: 2 weeks in the primary, then dry hops added to primary.

 

[relicdog]

marris otter ~70% and wheat 20-30% of the grain bill is what i would recommend. I would drop your Warrior bittering addition as your late addition hops will add plenty of bitterness to it and crystal has no business in an ipa so i would cut that out completely. More hops more hops more hops. Good luck.

 

[aprichman]

Low amounts of crystal in IPAs are very typical for commercial beers. A small amount, like a 1/4 lb in a 5 gallon batch, can be quite nice in my opinion.

 

[Yooper]

So I tried my luck again with making another IPA. Been in the bottle two weeks, tried it last night, and..........it was ok. Better than the last attempt, but still a little sweet, and I could actually use more hops flavor! I think I need a starter next time or double pitch, I feel like I am under attenuating, which is leading to the sweetness.

Anyhow, open to more critiques to the recipe below:

5 gal batch, 3.5 gal boil.
OG: 1.060
FG: 1.015

6 lbs. Pilsen LME
2 lbs. Pale LME (late addition)
.5 lbs. Crystal 10L
1 tsp. gypsum

1 oz. Warrior - 60 min
2oz. Cascade - 10 min
1 oz. Citra - 10 min
1 oz. Amarillo - 10 min
2oz. Cascade - Flameout/Whirlpool
1 oz. Citra - Flameout/Whirlpool
1 oz. Amarillo - Flameout/Whirlpool
2 oz. Cascade - Dry Hop (for 5 days after primary completed)
2 oz. Citra - Dry Hop (for 5 days after primary completed)

Yeast - WLP001

Other notes: 2 weeks in the primary, then dry hops added to primary.

What's your boil size?

I'd consider reducing the crystal a little bit, if it feels "sweet" in the finish. I would like to see the FG be more like 1.010 so making sure to aerate the wort before pitching the yeast and making sure to use an appropriately sized starter should help.

I would also reduce the LME by a pound, and use corn sugar or table sugar instead of that one pound of LME. That will really help with reducing the sweet finish and keeping a lighter body in the end. Also, consider using more of the LME as a late addition at flame out instead of so much at the beginning of the boil.

 

[Soyben]

Doing only a 3.5 gal boil you are losing a lot of hop efficiency. I recently just upgraded from doing 3.5 gallon boils to full boils and it made a big difference for me. And with that I would also second doing as much late addition of LME as you can. I tried to keep my small pot as full as possible so multiple small late additions to minimize the size of the hot break is what I did.

 

[Tknishi]

Thanks for the input, all good recommendations.

I probably will eliminate the crystal malts the next time.

I will have to try taking out a pound of LME and replacing it with corn sugar, I do want the dryer finish.

Right now I am limited to do 3.5 gal boils, I did read that I would get better efficiency with full boils.

 

[m00ps]

At the risk of coming across as gloating and self promoting, I think I may be about to help you out

 

[Yooper]

It's really tough to make a great IPA with a partial volume boil. I think that's the main issue here. Other beer styles can be made this way, but for an IPA it's really an issue.

The reason is pretty simple. The most hops oils that can isomerize in any wort is about 80-100 IBUs before the wort is saturated. So, say you end up with 2.5 gallons at the end of the boil. Even if you were able to get 100 IBUs in the wort (not likely, but let's say we did), and then added 2.5 gallons of water with 0 IBUs, it means the most you could ever get in the wort is 50 IBUs. Unless you increase the boil size, or buy something like hops extract, that will be a continued problem.

Hops isomerization is really an interesting subject. Even one of the hoppiest beers in the world, Pliny the Elder, which calculates out to something like 250+ IBUs has been tested and is like 85 IBUs. It has to do with the amount of hops oils that can isomerize in wort.

Could you possibly do a separate pot for your IPAs and boil 1/2 in each pot? Then add the bulk of the extract at flame out? That would make a big difference.

 

[Ethanfox]

Yooper, does the timing of hops extract change utilization/isomerization like it does with whole/pellet hops? Ie: extract at 60 minutes for bittering, flameout for aroma?

 

[Yooper]

Yooper, does the timing of hops extract change utilization/isomerization like it does with whole/pellet hops? Ie: extract at 60 minutes for bittering, flameout for aroma?

Yes, but I think primarily for bittering is where it would be most helpful.

Isomerization, whether pellets or whole hops, just isn't going to be as effective with a partial boil.

I've never seen any data that would show this, but common sense and brewing experience tells me that adding hops shot (or whatever brand is being used) is not the same as the isomerization of hops oils.

 

[PeteNMA]

Well hop shots are just hop oils which have been extracted from hop flowers and concentrated down to their oily form. They still need to be boiled to isomerize, so switching to hop extract won't get you around the partial volume boil issue.

The key advantages to hop extract are largely on larger scale brewing systems. By not using hop pellets you eliminate the volume of wort lost to the bittering addition which can be significant at a commercial scale. You also potentially avoid extracting so called "grassy" flavors from the hop plants.

 

[Tknishi]

It's really tough to make a great IPA with a partial volume boil. I think that's the main issue here. Other beer styles can be made this way, but for an IPA it's really an issue.

The reason is pretty simple. The most hops oils that can isomerize in any wort is about 80-100 IBUs before the wort is saturated. So, say you end up with 2.5 gallons at the end of the boil. Even if you were able to get 100 IBUs in the wort (not likely, but let's say we did), and then added 2.5 gallons of water with 0 IBUs, it means the most you could ever get in the wort is 50 IBUs. Unless you increase the boil size, or buy something like hops extract, that will be a continued problem.

Hops isomerization is really an interesting subject. Even one of the hoppiest beers in the world, Pliny the Elder, which calculates out to something like 250+ IBUs has been tested and is like 85 IBUs. It has to do with the amount of hops oils that can isomerize in wort.

Could you possibly do a separate pot for your IPAs and boil 1/2 in each pot? Then add the bulk of the extract at flame out? That would make a big difference.

I think this is the problem. I will try to do a smaller batch first, maybe 3 gallons and do the full boil and see how that turns out.

 

[grassfeeder]

here is the last IPA I did....turned out great in my opinion:

OG: 1.072
FG: 1.015
ABV: 7.38
IBU: 73.46

Full Boil (6 gallons, 5 gallon target in fermentor)

Malts:
7 lbs of Extra Light DME (3 lbs added at boil, 4 at flame out)
1 lb of Dextrose (added at flame out)

Steeping: (30 minutes @ 150)
.5 lbs of Carapils
.5 Munich Light 10
.5 Melanoidin

Hops:
1oz. CTZ (Columbus) @ 60

1/2 Whirlfloc Tablet (Irish moss) @ 15 minutes

1oz. Citra @ 10

1oz. Cascade @ 5
1oz. Centennial @ 5
1oz. Citra @ 5

1oz. Cascade @ whirlpool
1oz. Centennial @ whirlpool
1oz. Citra @ whirlpool

(after fermentation completes and moved to secondary)
1oz. Cascade @ Dry Hop 5 days
1oz. Centennial @ Dry Hop 5 days
1oz. Citra @ Dry Hop 5 days

Yeast:
The Yeast Bay Vermont Ale Yeast (ferment at 68 degrees)

 

[Grinder12000]

What kind of water do you have over there - I've found when I want to make a good/great IPA I make my own water. Even for extract.

I believe water is one of the most important parts in an IPA

 

[filthyastronaut]

For the partial boil issue, I made a partial boil IPA over the summer before I got into all grain, and I think I made a pretty damn good IPA with it. This was my hop schedule:

2 oz. each of Cascade, Centennial, and Simcoe @ 15 min.
1 oz. each of Cascade and Amarillo at flameout
1 oz. each of Cascade and Amarillo dry hopped for 7 days
2 oz. of Simcoe dry hopped for 7 days

So 6 oz. of late boil hops, 2 oz. hopstand, and 4 oz. dry hop, for a total of 12 oz. It was a partial boil, but it was very hoppy. That being said, for perspective, I have a Double IPA right now that had a full boil and only 6 oz. of hops total. In terms of completely subjective "hoppiness," I'd say it's quite similar, so while you can dump in 12 oz. of hops in a partial boil with good results, you can get almost the same results with a full boil and less hops (less money).

That being said (again), my dad's favorite beer of mine was my second batch, a Double IPA, and I can't convince him that my current batches are better (they are). That one was a partial boil, 7 oz. of hops, and just a 1 oz. dry hop. I do remember it being hoppy, but balanced with the malt. So the take away is that yes, you can make a good IPA with a partial boil, just be a little irrational with hopstands and dry hops. Just so you can gauge how much is good for you, I'd start with 8 for a partial boil and go higher from there depending on how you like it.

 

[millsbrew]

What kind of water do you have over there - I've found when I want to make a good/great IPA I make my own water. Even for extract.

I believe water is one of the most important parts in an IPA

What water profile do you use? I'm starting with RO. I got an IPA extract kit as birthday gift and haven't done extract in years. I'm thinking I'll just use Bru'n water's amber bitter.