IPA gone wrong-- I think it's got mold. Salvageable?

[flyangler18]

The article that Figbash is quoting from: BMG - How Healthy Is Your Malt? What You Should Know about a Disease that Could Affect Your Beer

 

[HSM]

That's a bad example. It isn't an example of something infecting your beer, it's an example of something infecting the grain and the byproduct of that infection ending up in the beer. That's like someone brewing a beer with grains coated in arsenic and then saying he died because his beer got an infection. It's not an infection, it's a chemical poison from a tainted raw ingredient.

Whoah! Stop right there... that makes just to much sense for an internet hombrew forum. You took that from point A to point B without hysterics and really captured the logic of the argument. And you are correct.

But watch the people argue with you

 

[HSM]

I was going to make a comment about how INTERESTING it is that those with the highest postcount seemed to take the "your beer is probably fine, no pathogens can live in beer," while the noobs were crying that the sky was falling...but you've redeemed my faith in new members of our family!

(I was going to make a comment) But you did make a comment...

Revvy, I post count meant anything, we'd elect our politicians a different way. Post count only means that you post a lot, not that you know anything.


Your underlying message, no pathogens in beer is on target.

 

[hoosbrewing]

OK, so given my line of work I have access to Medline, which is a database of most scientific and medical journals published since 1955. A quick search for "beer" resulted in ~5000 journal articles. Another search of "pathogen" resulted ~53,000 articles, and a search of "infection" resulted ~600,000 articles. When I crossed beer with either or both of the other search terms, it gave me a total of 60 articles. Most of these were discussing risk factors for contracting HIV and/or hepatitis, or TB. A handful discussed infections in beer causing gushers, and there was the one study looking at levels of mycotoxins in beer. In that study, the levels reported were so low that they had to be verified by another testing apparatus, and there was no mention of what (if anything) the low levels would do to you if you drank them.

What I did not find, however, was any mention of any pathogen that causes harm found in beer.

FWIW.

 

[hoosbrewing]

All that with a post count of 8.

 

[davesrose]

Conjecture? If you would take the time to read the post rather than just spew, you might find that the empirical proof has already been provided. Here's a little excerpt from the article to wet your appetite:

Where's the empirical evidence though? The empirical evidence for beer being lethal would be actual medical cases where people died from drinking bad batches of beer. In the last 1000+ years of recorded civilization....death by beer hasn't made it to a medical paper.

Mycotoxins are currently being studied for concern with livestock and brewing effeciency with malt....the only organized studies have shown it to be too low in dosage in finished beer to be of any concern for consumption.

 

[yeasty]

liver is actually GOOD for you but i wont eat that either.....

 

[Revvy]

Well this is interesting.....Doing a little research...This from Morebeer

Fusarium isn't a mold, it's a fungus;

It isn't created during fermentation, it's a disease that grows in the grain before and during malting;
The fungus is killed during the boil, but some of the mycotoxins already in the grain may partially survive the process;

...Notwithstanding all that, it does sound like Fusarium blight-infected grain is a potential source of toxicity in beer. I didn't see any articles detailing examples or statistics on incidence of toxicity, though. "Dose makes poison" for these sorts of things. Because Fusarium is so common, mycotoxins might always be present, but at concentrations too low to cause any observable effect in most people. Some people are particularly sensitive to mycotoxins and thus develop reactions to doses too low to bother the rest of us. Aspergillus in peanut butter is a well-known example.

So in summation... some grains that make beer may be infected and a specific toxin (mycotoxin) can survive the brewing process to some degree. This doesn't bother most people, but certain people have an allergy to mycotoxins and are sensitive enough to the amounts remaining in the beer to cause them to be unable to drink beer without repercussions.

Another thing, Figbash the article you reference happens to be from 1997.

A little more digging shows that 6 years later, on 7- 22-2003,

A team of scientists - including one from Michigan State University - has announced a genomic sequence for the rest of us: mapping the DNA of a grain fungus that wreaks havoc with beer brewing.
On tap: Genomic sequence of an enemy of beer and bread

And in an article published in 2007, titled;

Strategies for managing Fusarium head blight and deoxynivalenol accumulation in wheat

Abstract

Many mycotoxigenic fungi infect plant hosts and cause disease in the field. Therefore, control of field infection by these fungi is a critical step in managing mycotoxin accumulation in the harvested product. Fusarium graminearum, also known as Gibberella zeae, is the causal agent of Fusarium head blight (FHB), or scab, in cereals and is also the primary agent responsible for contamination of grain with deoxynivalenol (DON). Research efforts worldwide are devoted to the development of strategies to control field infection of wheat and barley by this pathogen. Strategies include the use of fungicides and biological control agents to protect flowering heads from infection. There is extensive effort in breeding for host resistance to infection and spread of the pathogen within the heads. Scientists are also seeking exogenous traits to introduce into cereals to enhance resistance. Cultural practices are also being examined, primarily as measures to reduce pathogen survival and inoculum production in crop residues. The successes and limitations of these strategies in the management of Fusarium head blight and deoxynivalenol are discussed.

ScienceDirect - International Journal of Food Microbiology : Strategies for managing Fusarium head blight and deoxynivalenol accumulation in wheat

So the more I read, the less I'm concerned.....it really seems that this is just another case of someone only having one part of the puzzle, and thinking it's the whole.....I appreciate your concern, but,

Since the OP, who this thread is supposed to be about anyway, had a mold pellicule growing on his beer, not a fungus.....this whole discussion really has no relevence to the situation at hand.

Especially in light of the fact, that for all we know (and I haven't looked enough to confirm this) the blight that you so greatly fear, more than likely has been controlled or greatly reduced, and probably did not infect his grain...and if it did it would also more than likely only harm people who were sensitive to mycotoxins...I'm going to go back to the idea that this is nothing more than ignorant (no offense intended we are all ignorant of something) hysteria,

And this whole sidebar, as I have several times said, bares little relevence to our friends tapeworm like mold

It kinda reminds me of this story:

The Blind Man and the Elephant
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant~(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation~Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side, ~ At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant ~ Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, "Ho! what have we here?
So very round and smooth and sharp? ~ To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant ~ Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands, ~ Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant ~ Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like ~ Is mighty plain," quoth her;
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant ~ Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most; ~ Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant ~ Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail ~ That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant ~ Is very like a rope!

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion ~ Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right ~ And all were in the wrong!

Moral

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

-John Godfrey Saxe

So figgy, you can choose to hide under the covers waiting for this bogeyman, or autolysis, Hot side aeration, or the countless other fears that many brewers, mostly with little experience so ardently subscribe to....I for one am through with this discussion with you.

That is until a global beer or barley ban happens....

Until then I will continue to shine light into the darkness of fear and ignorance...

But mostly I will just RDW and HAHB!

 

[davesrose]

Ah....but Brettanomyces on an extra stout tastes great!!! (maybe not less filling)!!!

 

[Revvy]

OK, so given my line of work I have access to Medline, which is a database of most scientific and medical journals published since 1955. A quick search for "beer" resulted in ~5000 journal articles. Another search of "pathogen" resulted ~53,000 articles, and a search of "infection" resulted ~600,000 articles. When I crossed beer with either or both of the other search terms, it gave me a total of 60 articles. Most of these were discussing risk factors for contracting HIV and/or hepatitis, or TB. A handful discussed infections in beer causing gushers, and there was the one study looking at levels of mycotoxins in beer. In that study, the levels reported were so low that they had to be verified by another testing apparatus, and there was no mention of what (if anything) the low levels would do to you if you drank them.

What I did not find, however, was any mention of any pathogen that causes harm found in beer.

FWIW.

I actually have acess to the same databse.....I have run several searches on topics like this....and I work with a biochemist who has done extensive work with our favorite little buddy saccharomyces cerevisiae...So I am not ignorant to the science and medical aspects of brewing...I may be a minister, but I also have a 20+ year career in Biomedical Educational Support, for the largest single campus medical school in the country...so when I have questions about this stuff, I can usually find someone with the info, or dig it myself.

 

[yeasty]

can you drink it ? yes ! why you would want to ? much more difficult to answer.

 

[Vuarra]

For curiousity's sake. I'd try it. Once.

And I might actually like it.

 

[davesrose]

can you drink it ? yes ! why you would want to ? much more difficult to answer.

Don't knock it till you try it. We wouldn't have a Lambics or Guinness without bacteria strains!! Humm.....I love me some Guinness extra stout!

 

[Revvy]

(I was going to make a comment) But you did make a comment...

Revvy, I post count meant anything, we'd elect our politicians a different way. Post count only means that you post a lot, not that you know anything.


Your underlying message, no pathogens in beer is on target.

I'm only saying that those people with higerh postcounts in this place, tend to know a few things....enough at least not to panic at the same ideas and bogeymen that we see everyday...A new poster who just started brewing and reading is more than likely going to believe in autolysis, Hotside aeration, getting a Candida infection from saccharomyces cerevisiae, and other things like that...things that those of us with higher postcounts have discussed, and more than likely researched ad nauseusm...

I didn't get this postcount by playing word games, I got this post count from spending several hours a day answering (hopefully articulately and clearly) the same questions by nervous and frightened brewers day in and day out for the last year...

A task that I have taken upon myself, and still manage to take great pride in, helping people lay down their fears and actually enjoy this fine hobby of ours....all you need to do for confirmation of my brewing knowhow, is to read what I have posted, and read my blogs, and do google searches (like I did to get the info) and if you find flaws in my knowledege base, you are welcome to share it with me...I love to learn, and have corrected many things that I have written over the year on here based on (usually the friendly providing of the new info.)

So if you are implying anything about my post count I truly hope you re-consider...I meant no offense in my commetn about post counts other than what I stated above...

If you look at the number of threads that i do, you will see that many new brewers are locked into a mindset from only reading Papazian and Palmer, without realizing that that may not be the most up to date information, so the last book or info they may have learned may be in Papazian from 30 years ago. Or Palmer which was written 6 years ago...so even that info is a little dated.

Heck even Palmer has learned stuff since he wrote how to brew, and has said things on podcasts that he admits contradicts what he wrote (look for the Basic brewing podcast called, "What is an Ibu, Really?" it will blow your mind....

This is an ever evolving hobby...Places like this is where you find the most state of the art information/wisdom about brewing, because of the sheer number of us trying new things, hearing new things, and even breaking new ground and contributing to the body of info on the hobby...Look at some of that inventions that came out of here, and then ended up later in BYO articles by our members...

 

[Revvy]

can you drink it ? yes ! why you would want to ? much more difficult to answer.

Because it would be a waste of time and money to pitch somethig that might be fine, especially if you invested at least a month in waiting for it..

And also, something you may find out when you have a few more batches under you belt, it may turn out to be the best damn beer you ever tasted and made, and you may never, ever be able to re-create it.

Sometimes these "accidents" turn out to have a more than happy ending.....

 

[Revvy]

Damn double posting glitch...anyway as I was saying Yeasty;

There's quite a lot of anecdotal evidence in this thread, here.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ne...virtue-time-heals-all-things-even-beer-73254/

 

[t-dogg]

revvy forgive them we know you are not a post whore

 

[yeasty]

i dont eat (or drink) gross things. ill leave the "experiments" to you master brewers. if i brew something that looks that evil its going in the toilet. id rather cash my chips in when that happens rather than spend even more time chasing that dragon. JMO.

 

[Revvy]

i dont eat (or drink) gross things. ill leave the "experiments" to you master brewers. if i brew something that looks that evil its going in the toilet. id rather cash my chips in when that happens rather than spend even more time chasing that dragon. JMO.

It's your choice, but like I said, many people here have been surprised by the results of "chasing the aging dragon."

I and many of the other posters on here believe, that if you dump a beer too soon...the beer is a 100% failure....but if you decide to wait...I think the odds rise to 80-20 that your beer will turn out OK...or at the least 50-50....

If you do ever find a "gross" beer, which inevitably you will if you brew for a long time...consider sending it to the nearest "master" to where you live for proper enjoymen....er...I mean disposal.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Can we sticky some of this info somewhere. I for one am sick of having this same argument every 3 days.

 

[yeasty]

It's your choice, but like I said, many people here have been surprised by the results of "chasing the aging dragon."

I and many of the other posters on here believe, that if you dump a beer too soon...the beer is a 100% failure....but if you decide to wait...I think the odds rise to 80-20 that your beer will turn out OK...or at the least 50-50....

If you do ever find a "gross" beer, which inevitably you will if you brew for a long time...consider sending it to the nearest "master" to where you live for proper enjoymen....er...I mean disposal.

im not arguing, just stating my opinion, and i got a few of those beers right now for anyone who wants them.

 

[7Enigma]

Well it appears no one has the guts to say it so I will bear that sword:

Beer causes cancer. Now please hand your beer over so that I may protect it, I mean you from the dangers.

 

[Revvy]

im not arguing, just stating my opinion, and i got a few of those beers right now for anyone who wants them.

It will be interesting to see in a few years if you still believe that, especially if you decide to brew a Sour Ale with Brett in it..I hear they look nasty for awhile.....:rockin:

Well it appears no one has the guts to say it so I will bear that sword:

Beer causes cancer. Now please hand your beer over so that I may protect it, I mean you from the dangers.

Don't forget Man-****s from BPE in the water bottles many of us use to ferrment in....That's why I joined a gym.

Oh and my beergut.....I'm not pregnant, I'm a homebrewer,

 

[flyangler18]

i dont eat (or drink) gross things. ill leave the "experiments" to you master brewers. if i brew something that looks that evil its going in the toilet. id rather cash my chips in when that happens rather than spend even more time chasing that dragon. JMO.

Would you dump this?

Or this?

 

[yeasty]

so what is it. obviously its supposed to be that way or you wouldnt be trying to bait me.

 

[JoeMama]

It's your choice, but like I said, many people here have been surprised by the results of "chasing the aging dragon."

I and many of the other posters on here believe, that if you dump a beer too soon...the beer is a 100% failure....but if you decide to wait...I think the odds rise to 80-20 that your beer will turn out OK...or at the least 50-50....

If you do ever find a "gross" beer, which inevitably you will if you brew for a long time...consider sending it to the nearest "master" to where you live for proper enjoymen....er...I mean disposal.

I will add myself to this list of people who 'waited'.

I was looking back on some of my posts when I brewed a couple of batches that really really disappointed me. (I thought they were ruined, bad water, etc) The other day I kicked a keg of one of them and almost cried because it was so damn good. Ironically, these exact same brews were the ones that had BMC and craft brewers alike saying that they were some of the best beers they had ever tasted.

Like stated before, it will take a mere 30 more minutes of your life to bottle/keg this stuff and then move on to something else. (Totally forgetting about it) Thus allowing you to try it when you decide to remember later on down the road.

Besides, if that image on your beer scared you - dont get me started on what people EAT. (You like a GOOD steak dont you?)
-Me

 

[flyangler18]

so what is it. obviously its supposed to be that way or you wouldnt be trying to bait me.

I'm not trying to bait you at all - just pointing out through those images that fermentation can be an ugly and visually disturbing process.

The first picture is a lactobacillus pellicle on a Berliner Weisse, a sour ale. That is a purposeful infection.

The second is a 'yeast raft' on an ESB using an English yeast strain (West Yorkshire) that looks an awful lot like Bisquick. This strain is one of several that I use that has some unusual characteristics like that shown in the picture.

 

[7Enigma]

so what is it. obviously its supposed to be that way or you wouldnt be trying to bait me.

Probably pictures from the "is it ruined" thread posted earlier. And most llikely they turned out good. I've had a batch or two that looked similar to the second picture and I'm still kicking...but this weird 6th toe on my right foot...

 

[yeasty]

guys i am really just being the devils advocate on this. it seems none of the experienced brewers here will readily admit that sometimes the stuff needs to go down the drain. sure folks have been brewing for centuries but that doesnt mean it always tastes good. there are plenty of commercial bears i dont like as well...i dont drink those either just because they are beer (victory golden monkey comes to mind). if you got the time and resources to hold on to it for months or years then by all means do it. i cant imagine why someone would listen to my noob opinion anyway....figure it out for yourself. the 30-50 bucks invested in a batch is not all that much money to me so if i got somethin nasty in a bucket i have no fear dumping it and not looking back. thats just what works for me. we all need to find our own way and tolerances for the results. the OP had some nasty stuff going on there and most will at least admit that result is rare....i will not change my OPINION that is needs to be aborted. i wont use my friends and family as guinea pigs or my basement as a experimental lab. maybe someday when i get bored of how easy quality results can be ill find it fun to try weird stuff but i doubt it. im pretty picky about my food too !!!!

 

[flyangler18]

guys i am really just being the devils advocate on this. it seems none of the experienced brewers here will readily admit that sometimes the stuff needs to go down the drain. sure folks have been brewing for centuries but that doesnt mean it always tastes good. there are plenty of commercial bears i dont like as well...i dont drink those either just because they are beer (victory golden monkey comes to mind). if you got the time and resources to hold on to it for months or years then by all means do it. i cant imagine why someone would listen to my noob opinion anyway....figure it out for yourself. the 30-50 bucks invested in a batch is not all that much money to me so if i got somethin nasty in a bucket i have no fear dumping it and not looking back. thats just what works for me. we all need to find our own way and tolerances for the results. the OP had some nasty stuff going on there and most will at least admit that result is rare....i will not change my OPINION that is needs to be aborted. i wont use my friends and family as guinea pigs or my basement as a experimental lab. maybe someday when i get bored of how easy quality results can be ill find it fun to try weird stuff but i doubt it. im pretty picky about my food too !!!!

Fair enough. That's some serious mold going on in the OP which tells me that there was a breakdown in sanitation somewhere. My very first AG developed an infection in the bottle and I wrote off most of the batch. It was thin, acrid and not very good. However, I did cellar a 6 pack just to see how it would develop. Might need to crack one this evening just to satiate my curiosity.

But if we all rushed to dump just because something looked funky without bottling and conditioning before passing judgement, there'd be plenty of good beer that would water the lawn instead of quenching my thirst. There are times when dumping is a legitimate course of action.

I have only dumped one batch of beer (I believe it was my second AG batch) - a cherry wheat that SWMBO requested. The ferment went as expected, conditions were right. I screwed up in packaging. I used far too much cherry extract and it wasn't enjoyable at all. Chalked it up to experience and moved on. 48 batches later, I haven't had a reason to worry. I was happy to dump it.