Invert Sugar - Creation, Use, Flavor, Etc.

[bierhaus15]

bierhaus,The #1 syrup I made was also quite thick and doesn't look that much lighter than yours. I think mine topped out at 242* F or so. Whatever temp it boils at determines how thick it will be (I was just a hair shy of 'firm ball'), next time I'll dilute it with some water to get the boil temp down to 230* F or so (or whatever soft ball is). You can always heat it up and add some water. IIRC, my first syrup (just caramelized syrup) boiled at ~220* F and was a bit too thin.

In order to add it to the boil I just used tongs and dunked the whole mason jar in the boil, filled it, dumped the watery stuff; repeated about a bazillion times until the jar was clean.

Thanks for the info! I plan on making another batch pretty soon to rectify my first attempt. The stuff I made has become so hard, it's like concrete - not looking forward dunking my mason jar a million times in the wort! Though I put some in my coffee this morning and it tastes pretty darn good.

I had a special bitter recipe already planned to test out the no.1 but after some consideration it I think I'll go super simple with something like 85% MO, 5% C40, and 10% No.1 invert to see what flavors the sugar adds. I got a hold of some Thames Valley II on a slant recently, so I'll give that a try. Anyone have any experience with this yeast?

 

[KingBrianI]

I'm making another batch of invert no. 2 right now and have uncovered a few things. First of all, I've been tasting it through the whole process. The twangy kind of thing didn't show up until about 45 minutes or so into the hold at 240. I think that is a sign that the "twang" I'm getting isn't from too much acid, but rather something that develops as the sugar cooks.

Secondly, I think maybe the words "acidic" or "twang" I used earlier might be a little misleading. It's not a mouth-puckering or lemon juice kind of sourness, but a light, fruity brightness. Tasting it today I took some time to try to better figure out the flavor and it is actually a lot like the brightness you get from a tart apple or some other fruit. Not sour, just bright. I did notice last time that the brightness seemed to fade a bit with storage and a richer, deeper caramel flavor seemed to come out.

 

[bierhaus15]

Made my second batch of No.2 last night and I'm pretty sure I got it mostly right this time - for one thing I ended up with no.2 and not another batch of no.1. Didn't have temperature problems and the syrup is about as pourable as honey, with good flavor. I compared it to some c80 and the flavors are pretty similar, with no twang.

Now it's time to brew with it...

 

[KingBrianI]

Made my second batch of No.2 last night and I'm pretty sure I got it mostly right this time - for one thing I ended up with no.2 and not another batch of no.1. Didn't have temperature problems and the syrup is about as pourable as honey, with good flavor. I compared it to some c80 and the flavors are pretty similar, with no twang.

Now it's time to brew with it...

Do you not get any tart apple "brightness" from it?

 

[bierhaus15]

Do you not get any tart apple "brightness" from it?

I'd guess you could say there is some fresh apple notes in there, but it's more of a crisp, dark caramel sweetness than tart fruity flavor. Tasting the two, I definitely think my first batch has some dry tartness in it, as it seems as the sugar has retained some of its raw qualities. The second batch has a more mellow flavor and you can tell the sugars have been cooking for some time - it sorta reminds me of a (sweet) dark rum. My second batch took me 2 hours on the stove.

 

[unholymess]

Good to hear the 2nd batch turned out better! No2 for me is *very* similar to English Med Crystal (70-80L), but without the chocolate/roasty notes.

I have been using this in mostly historic recipes from Barclay Perkins like these:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2009/08/lets-brew-wednesday-fullers-1962.html
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/11/lets-brew-wednesday-1928-barclay_18.html

As for the flavors - I get no tartness at all, even for No1. I get syrupy sweet apples and light fruits, moving to more caramel, plum, figs, raisins and the like as you get darker. Always super sweet, never tart.

 

[14thstreet]

My first attempt at "invert sugar" was in the BP blog's 1955 XXX Mild:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/03/lets-brew-wednesday-1955-whitbread-xxx.html

I used DAP and acid with dark brown sugar in mine with a 2 hour simmer/boil without temp control. To be honest, next to the 5% crystal 70-80L in this recipe, I really didn't notice a contribution from the sugar, flavor-wise. I used Nottingham and the beer did have apple fruit notes to it and I suppose a tartness, but without having brewed an appropriate comparison, my opinion isn't worth much.

I have brewed with Thames Valley II and liked it despite my experiences - if that makes sense. Unfortunately I didn't put it through a series of similar beers so my attenuation was a bit inconsistent and had some issues trying to get the beer to finish. With my limited experience it seemed sensitive to a few degrees drop after the main fermentation in chewing off the last several points. I did manage to ferment one beer warmer 68-70 and remembered that the esters in a way unbalanced a lightly hopped beer. Beers mashed 155F seemed to have a full mouthfeel whereas something cooler might be more appropriate, all depending. An IPA with about 15% sugar seemed to make it lazy at the end of fermentation (repitched with Notty at bottling help create carbonic bite gushers).

 

[KingBrianI]

I had a special bitter recipe already planned to test out the no.1 but after some consideration it I think I'll go super simple with something like 85% MO, 5% C40, and 10% No.1 invert to see what flavors the sugar adds. I got a hold of some Thames Valley II on a slant recently, so I'll give that a try. Anyone have any experience with this yeast?

I've decided to formulate the bitter I'll be brewing this weekend more like what you describe here in order to let the invert sugar play a larger role in the flavors.

Bog Standard Bitter
OG 1.038
IBU 31
SRM 7.8

2775 g Maris Otter
340 g Invert No. 2
140 g Simpsons Med Crystal (55L)

NB hops to 31 IBU at 60 min.
14 g Goldings at flameout

Wyeast 1318

That should provide a nice canvas for the invert to shine. I'm really looking forward to trying a beer with that 1318 too.

 

[bierhaus15]

Recipe looks good - pretty much the same as mine. I am really excited to see how this homemade invert syrup compares to the commerical stuff I've been using. Though unfortunately my starter with the thames valley II is not looking very healthy and it sorta smells off. It was a really old slant to begin with and I'm not going to risk getting a bad bad batch from it.

WY1318 is my new favorite yeast for low gravity bitters and milds. It is mildly fruity and leaves a wonderfully soft malt profile that finishes just a tad sweet even though it attenuates pretty well. It does well with hops too.

 

[KingBrianI]

Well between better than expected efficiency and the sugar being thicker (and thus having a higher potential) than I calculated for, my ordinary bitter came out a special bitter. No big deal. The 1318 is pitched and the batch is sitting in the fermentation freezer at 64. I'll set the freezer to 68 later tonight to let it free rise to that temp, where I'll hold it until fermentation is over.

 

[user 19629]

One thing I was wondering
If a recipe calls for 0.25 lbs of invert sugar.
Does one make an invert sugar using 0.25lbs of sugar
and use that, or do you make an invert sugar syrup and weigh that?

 

[KingBrianI]

One thing I was wondering
If a recipe calls for 0.25 lbs of invert sugar.
Does one make an invert sugar using 0.25lbs of sugar
and use that, or do you make an invert sugar syrup and weigh that?

Use 0.25 lbs of the finished product.

 

[corncob]

Use 0.25 lbs of the finished product.

But that finished product could contain, by weight, anywhere from 0% to 33% or more of water--based on Unholymess's procedure, and assuming the syrup is "topped up" to replace some of the water lost during the hour-and-a-half boil.

So if your process isn't somewhat standardized, you could miss your intended gravity by a few points for sure. Not a huge deal. I would think it is always best to make the invert in batches of at least a certain size, to lessen the impact of measurement error associated with the tiny acid addition.

But what do I know--I haven't even tried it yet.:cross:

 

[unholymess]

There should _not_ be any top up water, so the product should be fairly standard. It does help to make larger batches - heck, this stuff will last for a good year or two in an airtight container.

 

[KingBrianI]

But that finished product could contain, by weight, anywhere from 0% to 33% or more of water--based on Unholymess's procedure, and assuming the syrup is "topped up" to replace some of the water lost during the hour-and-a-half boil.

That's the problem I ran into yesterday I think. The syrup was thicker than I expected so I think it provided more gravity than I calculated for. But even with the invert being over 10% of my fermentables my calculations showed that basing its potential on either 1.036 or 1.046 would only swing the gravity by 1 point.

By the way, I don't see how it is possible to not add tiny additions of water through the process if you want the invert to be a syrup and not hard candy. When I made my second batch last week, I probably added a half cup or more of water in tiny increments over the 2 hour cook. And I still ended up with a syrup that barely flows. Holding the sugar at 240 drives water out fast enough that after 2 hours of no water additions, you would have nearly 100% sugar, and thus hard candy when cool.

 

[unholymess]

No, it won't be hard candy if it inverted. That is the magic of invert syrup! If it does turn into a rock, you goofed the inversion. This is also why adding some corn syrup is suggested - it helps ensure the syrup doesn't crystallize in the rare case it doesn't fully invert.

There is a definite lack of flowing, but all you need to do is soak the container in hot water for a bit and it'll loosen up nicely.

 

[KingBrianI]

Good to know, I'll have to try it next time with no water. What potential do you use for the invert in your recipe calculations?

 

[unholymess]

45/36/33 for Nos 1/2/3

 

[bierhaus15]

Finally got around to brewing a bitter with the second batch of invert syrup I made a while ago. The recipe was really simple, I'm hoping to see how much character the sugar gives the beer. The hydrometer sample tasted really good though, should be drinking this one in a few weeks! I'm tempted to try and make a batch of No.3 and try that out in a stout, though I'm a little worried about boiling sugar for 3 hours.

 

[KingBrianI]

I'm tempted to try and make a batch of No.3 and try that out in a stout, though I'm a little worried about boiling sugar for 3 hours.

Sounds like a good solution to the question of what you should brew tomorrow!

 

[user 19629]

OK so if a recipe calls for 0.25lb of invert, you take the weight of the invert and not the weight of the sugar used to make the invert.
But my brewing software and a couple charts I have list the gravity points of plain sugar and the gravity points of invert sugar as the same number.
So the software and charts are wrong?
What I tried to do was weigh the invert to figure out the SG and then use the volume I wanted to add to see how it would raise the gravity of the wort,but that was kind of a pain.

 

[corncob]

My attempt at #2, in chronological order, clockwise from the spatula around to the spoon:

I used Unholy's method, but with half as much water as he called for--only a half pint per pound of sugar, and only about a teaspoon of light corn syrup to prevent crystalization before inversion completed. I used demerara and it foamed like crazy. The inversion took, apparently, because I now have two pounds of soft ball stage black candy in the fridge. It pours like honey at room temperature and tastes like nothing I've ever tasted. Actually it reminds me of the home-made cane syrup you used to find around the Southeast US, but "cleaner." No "twang." I guessed at the color, but it looks like a very dark porter when viewed in a larger container. It went for 2 hours and 15 minutes at 240.

Thanks to UnholyMess and the freaks at ShutupaboutBarclayPerkins. I am PSCHYCHED about brewing a strong bitter with this stuff and some flaked maize.

 

[starrfish]

Sorry to Zombify this thread but I just found it, planning on making some this week, and had all my questions answered. Using cream of tartar as I have some in my spice rack.

thanks guys, got Unholy's method a while back but, kept forgetting to order the lactic acid... Using cream of tartar as I have some in my spice rack.

 

[aussietrev]

Hey guys. I thought I might add my two cents in here.

What you are making is caramel.

I make pastry and chocolates as a job so I can say a few points.
invert sugar is used as a preservative in making bon bons etc. it is very sweet but does not taste acidic.
Glucose is used to stop sugar from crystalising and the acid that you see beeing used is to modify the crystals of súgar. IE: hte more acid you add to your sugar the more elastic it will be when it sets.

If you really want invert sugar then i would sugest going into a shop and buying some "trimoline" thats acommon name for invert sugar in the pastry world.

Or Try this recipe. Invert sugar recipe | By Pastry Chef – Author Eddy Van Damme
That is what invert sugar looks like. if it is brown then the sugar is burnt.

 

[aussietrev]

Invert sugar recipe | By Pastry Chef – Author Eddy Van Damme

 

[metic]

At what point in the boil do people add their invert sugar? Can it go in from the start, or should it be added towards the end?