Intro and request for wisdom

[THESULLI]

Hey guys!

I have been a lurker of this forum on and off for maybe 5 years now... I kept telling myself I was going to make my own beer but I never really got around to actually doing it! Well about 6 weeks ago the girlfriend and I moved to Carson City and discovered our LHBS... I floated the idea of brewing our own beer past her and to my surprise she was just as excited as I was about it! So that worked out haha. So that day we went out and got our kit and got to work on our first batch... An oatmeal stout that we modified a little bit to taste like Christmas. I have no idea if it was a good idea to screw around with a recipe on our first attempt but changing everything up and making our own flavors is pretty much the main reason we are so excited about this so why not you know? Only time will tell if it turns out...

Now on to my need for wisdom. Here is the recipe.

6.6# Dark malt extract
1# Pilsen dry malt extract
1# Crystal malt 90-L
1# Black roasted Barley
1# Oats
2oz Northern brewer
2oz Willamette
Belgian strong ale yeast
And a few spices to make it taste like Christmas!

The recipe does not mention anything about gravity and I completely forgot to take a gravity reading before pitching the yeast and putting the lid on... It was like 1 in the morning... I left in in the fermenter for 18 days and I was still getting some bubbles in the airlock. Then I called the homebrew store and asked the owner about it since he was the one who put the recipe together. He said that I should be shooting for about 1.020. So I took a gravity reading and that was exactly what I was sitting at. I was not planning on it but I ended up transferring it over to a secondary to help clear it up a bit. There was still a lot of junk floating around in there! Ohh and I almost forgot. I was not aware that I had to pop the yeast bag and let it sit for a few hours before pitching so it ended up only sitting for like 30 mins or so before i pitched it. I am not sure if this is a huge deal as I had pretty active fermentation in just under 48 hours.

Anyways... I took a taste and I have questions. It tasted pretty much like it looks... Brown. Haha! I don't really have another way of describing it. Earthy/coffee maybe? So here is my question. Is that what it should taste like? Does it usually taste much different than the final product? Is it possible that it was not done fermenting because I did not allow the yeast to sit for a few hours and let the bag swell?

Let me know what you think!

 

[meridianomrebel]

Plugging everything you had into Beersmith, it looks like your OG should have been around 1.057, with an estimated FG of 1.016.

You're gonna have a very dark stout, and yes, the flavor will change as you give it a chance to age. Give it a full week in secondary and check your gravity reading - you should see it drop some. Once your gravity remains consistent, go ahead and add your priming sugar to your bottling bucket and bottle your beer. Then comes the hardest part - wait for 2 weeks to allow the beer to carbonate in the bottles, and then put the bottles in the fridge and wait at least 2 more weeks. If you want, take a couple of bottles out of the fridge after that first week and try them (one for you, one for your girlfriend). Take some notes on the characteristics of the beer (seriously, put it down on paper). Then, after a week goes back, try another one and compare how it tastes then to the notes you had the previous week - you'll find that giving the beer more time allows the flavors to mellow out a good bit.

Oh, and congrats - you've made beer! You'll find that patience is one of the hardest parts of this hobby. Once you have bottled that batch, go ahead and brew up another batch so you can keep a steady flow of homebrew in the pipeline.

 

[JimRausch]

meridian says it perfectly- I wouldn't change a word. Must be a wicked wise brewer!

 

[THESULLI]

Plugging everything you had into Beersmith, it looks like your OG should have been around 1.057, with an estimated FG of 1.016.

You're gonna have a very dark stout, and yes, the flavor will change as you give it a chance to age. Give it a full week in secondary and check your gravity reading - you should see it drop some. Once your gravity remains consistent, go ahead and add your priming sugar to your bottling bucket and bottle your beer. Then comes the hardest part - wait for 2 weeks to allow the beer to carbonate in the bottles, and then put the bottles in the fridge and wait at least 2 more weeks. If you want, take a couple of bottles out of the fridge after that first week and try them (one for you, one for your girlfriend). Take some notes on the characteristics of the beer (seriously, put it down on paper). Then, after a week goes back, try another one and compare how it tastes then to the notes you had the previous week - you'll find that giving the beer more time allows the flavors to mellow out a good bit.

Oh, and congrats - you've made beer! You'll find that patience is one of the hardest parts of this hobby. Once you have bottled that batch, go ahead and brew up another batch so you can keep a steady flow of homebrew in the pipeline.

Awesome info thanks! Should I be concerned about not letting the yeast do its thing before pitching it? The directions said let it sit and swell for 3 hours and i gave it like 30 mins haha.

 

[bernardsmith]

Hiya THESULLI - and welcome.
I wouldn't be anxious about the yeast. There were enough cells in the yeast to ferment the sugars in the amount of time that you expected. Unless there are off smells because of stresses to the yeast then there is really nothing to worry about. The other thing about the taste - realize that your beer is - what 2 weeks old? You really are not going to drink it for another 4 weeks (my rule of thumb is 3 weeks fermenting and 3 weeks conditioning in the bottle - but see Jim's post above). So your beer is in its infancy but even more: typically you drink beer that is carbonated. This beer may have some CO2 still trapped in the liquid but it is not carbonated. Carbonation modifies the taste (increases the acidity a little) and the way the beer is tasted (the liquid sorta kinda explodes in those tiny bubbles in parts of your mouth that simply drinking the uncarbonated version it does not (try drinking an uncarbonated version of a soda... if you can - It's a world of difference)

 

[THESULLI]

Hiya THESULLI - and welcome.
I wouldn't be anxious about the yeast. There were enough cells in the yeast to ferment the sugars in the amount of time that you expected. Unless there are off smells because of stresses to the yeast then there is really nothing to worry about. The other thing about the taste - realize that your beer is - what 2 weeks old? You really are not going to drink it for another 4 weeks (my rule of thumb is 3 weeks fermenting and 3 weeks conditioning in the bottle - but see Jim's post above). So your beer is in its infancy but even more: typically you drink beer that is carbonated. This beer may have some CO2 still trapped in the liquid but it is not carbonated. Carbonation modifies the taste (increases the acidity a little) and the way the beer is tasted (the liquid sorta kinda explodes in those tiny bubbles in parts of your mouth that simply drinking the uncarbonated version it does not (try drinking an uncarbonated version of a soda... if you can - It's a world of difference)

Yeah that makes sense. I always see videos and posts of guys saying they tasted it and that it was great even before they pitch the yeast so I guess I was expecting mine to taste great as well... It just tasted like dark brown water haha.

You also mentioned smells... I did notice a kinda banana smell for most of the fermentation. And maybe some pine tree smells which I am assuming is just the hops. Other than those two I really have not noticed anything weird. I am curious as to what could be making that banana smell though. Any ideas?

 

[meridianomrebel]

A banana smell during fermentation is from the esters (isoamyl acetate). What temperature was your wort when you pitched the yeast? Also, at what temperature have you been fermenting at? Finally, what type of yeast did you use?

 

[THESULLI]

A banana smell during fermentation is from the esters (isoamyl acetate). What temperature was your wort when you pitched the yeast? Also, at what temperature have you been fermenting at? Finally, what type of yeast did you use?

Wort was low 80's as I was advised that I can pitch at any temp under 90. Fermentation temp has been around 72 which is just the temp of the room that it was in. I no longer have the yeast package but the recipe says it was "Belgian strong ale yeast". I have noticed that some yeasts come with a code to identify exactly what the yeast is. Is that something that all yeasts have on them? If so I will have to start paying attention to that as well.

 

[stella_tigre]

Congrats to you two, hope you love your beer!

Besides the rule for sanitation, another is to keep a log! So next year when you open your next to last bottle and say, "Damn, that is great! Let's brew another one just like it!" you'll actually know what the heck you did. Yes, yeast type (brand used, type, including the code like WLP080 or US05) will be important. It's also good for doing a post mortem when things (ahem) don't work out so well, so include any mistakes you realized you made, and pitching and ferm temps, etc.

There are log sheets available or you can create your own, they can also help you plan your brewday and not forget something important.
Cheers!

 

[THESULLI]

Congrats to you two, hope you love your beer!

Besides the rule for sanitation, another is to keep a log! So next year when you open your next to last bottle and say, "Damn, that is great! Let's brew another one just like it!" you'll actually know what the heck you did. Yes, yeast type (brand used, type, including the code like WLP080 or US05) will be important. It's also good for doing a post mortem when things (ahem) don't work out so well, so include any mistakes you realized you made, and pitching and ferm temps, etc.

There are log sheets available or you can create your own, they can also help you plan your brewday and not forget something important.
Cheers!

Yeah that is a good idea! I am going to have to start keeping a log. I am already dying over here waiting to do another batch! Where can I find these log sheets you mentioned? Just google them?

 

[CoreyD]

Brewersfriend.com has a bunch of different log sheets and brew day check lists you can print out. For a log book, I just have a note book I write stuff in. Keep detailed notes of mash temps and any other thing involved with the brewing day. I write down what I'm brewing along with the date and times. That way I can refer back to it to see what went right, or wrong.

 

[THESULLI]

Brewersfriend.com has a bunch of different log sheets and brew day check lists you can print out. For a log book, I just have a note book I write stuff in. Keep detailed notes of mash temps and any other thing involved with the brewing day. I write down what I'm brewing along with the date and times. That way I can refer back to it to see what went right, or wrong.

Awesome thanks!

 

[stella_tigre]

Brewersfriend.com has a bunch of different log sheets and brew day check lists you can print out. For a log book, I just have a note book I write stuff in. Keep detailed notes of mash temps and any other thing involved with the brewing day. I write down what I'm brewing along with the date and times. That way I can refer back to it to see what went right, or wrong.

The brew day sheets can really help, even if you're not just beginning. They remind you of your process steps, and you if you fill them out before you start you have a pre-review of all your ingredients, for instance, and reminders to add your various ingredients. I also use Priceless BIAB calculator - although there are certainly others - to help determine the temp of whatever my quantity of strike water is to hit mash temp and all those things. Planning ahead really helps reduce problems!

 

[THESULLI]

The brew day sheets can really help, even if you're not just beginning. They remind you of your process steps, and you if you fill them out before you start you have a pre-review of all your ingredients, for instance, and reminders to add your various ingredients. I also use Priceless BIAB calculator - although there are certainly others - to help determine the temp of whatever my quantity of strike water is to hit mash temp and all those things. Planning ahead really helps reduce problems!

Yeah it looks like there are a lot of helpful tools that I will definitely need to take advantage of. The logs will be very helpful as I can't even remember if I had breakfast this morning! Haha!

 

[mongoose33]

Here are a couple of my "log sheets." They're not 100 percent but are pretty close. I don't include everything as some elements of brew day are just....well, assumed. Like pre-heating the mash tun with a gallon of boiling water. I always do that, and don't note it.

Things like when I ramp up temp and back down again are noted, as well as when kegged, things like that.

Below is the log from when I recently brewed Biermuncher's Black Pearl Porter. On the left I show the grain bill (changing from Biermuncher's 1# caramel at 30L because all I had was 60L). On the right are the additions, starting on top w/ the hops (Fuggle). I note the alpha and beta acid rating left of it, and show how much and when they're added.

Below those are other additions; a cup of maltoDextrine at 20 minutes, 4 oz of Lactose at 15 minutes, a Whirlfloc tab at 10 minutes. The yeast which was pitched was Wyeast 1028, and I made a starter.

The water is noted below, printed off a water calculator. I used 50 percent of my own (very hard) tap water, diluted w/ 2 gallons of RO water, and to which I added a couple grams of gypsum, a couple grams of table salt, and 1/2 of a Campden tablet to take care of any chlorine.

The strike water (going back up to below the grain bill) was heated to 170 degrees. I used a preheated mash tun, and when the water and grist were combined, I ended up with a mash temp of 156.4 degrees (he specified 158 degrees, so I'm a bit cool, but not overly so). Sparge water was heated to 170 degrees. Sparge water was pure RO, I don't note that because that's what I always do. Probably should include that.

Then you can see first runnings off the mash tun and the volume pulled off, then second runnings, resulting in a total of 6.5 gallons. Preboil and post boil (original gravity) are noted. Final gravity, measured about 2.5 weeks later, is noted, along w/ the calculated ABV.

I don't have kegging notes on there--I cold crashed it not long after, added about 2.5 ounces of Vanilla extract, and then kegged. If I use gelatin to fine, I'll note that but in this case I did not. My kegging note is on the keg label, I'll have to look it up and add that info to the log.

Now--can you get pre-printed sheets for this? Sure. Can you keep track of all this stuff in a program like Beersmith (which I have)? Sure. It's just that, for me, it's easier to note this stuff as I do it than focusing on using a computer program. Maybe if my brew area was set up differently I'd use it, but as it is, all my brewing notes are in this nice notebook. A few recipes I've transferred into Beersmith.

How you do it is up to you of course, but this may give you some idea of the kinds of things you might record. The purpose is to have a good record for the possibility of brewing it again later.

As for this one: it's a hit. It *will* be brewed again, so I want careful notes so I can reproduce it. I just bottled the last 17 bottles in the keg so I could store them and age them, as well as free up the keg for the California Common that was waiting patiently in the fermenter.

 

[THESULLI]

AWESOME POST! Thanks Mongoose33! There is a lot of useful info I can use to make my logs. I didn't realize how important keeping detailed logs would be. It makes perfect sense though. My girlfriend loves to cook and bake (another reason she is a keeper, haha!) and she refers back to the same set of cookbooks so much that one of them is literally falling apart... Thanks for taking the time to type up that post! It is much appreciated!

 

[pepindavid]

Wort was low 80's as I was advised that I can pitch at any temp under 90. Fermentation temp has been around 72 which is just the temp of the room that it was in.

First, congratulations! I'd even say the usual "Welcome to the obsession"! I started brewing a little less than a year ago, so, with about 10 batches under my belt, I'm still a newbie. You'll see: your first beers may not (or may) be stellar, but you'll see improvements fast! There's so much to learn, but it's actually quite easy to make really good beer.

For me, what seemed to be the single thing that made a huge difference was to better control the fermentation temperature. A few points related to what you indicated:
- Some here would tell you that you're better off bringing the temperature to your target fermentation temperature, and then pitch, rather than pitching in the high 80's and letting it cool down after pitching. Most of the "off-flavors" or overly fruity esters related to high temperature are apparently a result of the temperature in the first 24-72 hours of fermentation.
- Generally speaking, I've had great results by pitching the yeast a bit lower than the target temperature, and then ramping up the temperature a bit after 3-4 days to ensure good attenuation. For example, for ales using US-05, I would pitch at 66, let it ferment 3-4 days, and then gradually increasing it to 74 for a few days.
- What I'm describing implies having some sort of tempertaure control. This can be a simple not-too-accurate setup (look up swamp cooler), or a super precise temperture control. I found a used Pepsi mini fridge on Kijiji (Canadian equivalent of craiglist, I guess), and added a Inkbird controller and a seedling mat for heating. With this, I'm able to control the temp pretty accurately.
- You said the room was at 72: the beer was most likely quite warmer than this, especially during the most active phase of fermentation. The yeast you use is usually quite happy at temps around 70, but if the beer was closer to 80 or higher, you may get too much esters for your liking (banana, clove, etc.).

In the end, my suggestion is to research the preferred fermentation schedule of the specific yeast you'll be using for your next batches, and try to find a way to control the temperature of your fermenting beer. I was surprised to see how much differences there are between yeast strains.

And finally, if you haven't done so, I strongly suggest you read through (most) of "How to brew". The first edition is online (http://www.howtobrew.com/). Very informative.

But then again, don't be too stressed about it: it's only beer, humanity has been brewing it for millenniums, in less than ideal conditions. It's very forgiving, and time can solve a lot of flaws.

Have fun brewing what you like!

 

[THESULLI]

Thanks Pepindavid! I guess the temperature is another thing that I really need to pay attention to. I suppose the high fermentation temp would explain the banana smell that I was getting. You also mentioned that the wort would be higher than the room temperature. How many degrees warmer is the wort compared to the room on average? Or does it depend on the yeast that you are using? I need to get one of those stick on thermometers...

It's funny... I have spent countless hours watching brew videos on youtube... They apparently gave the the extremely false impression that I knew what I was doing. NOT THE CASE! I mean I knew/know the process but when it came time to actually do it in real life I was clueless, haha! There are so may things that I would change about this batch looking back. Awesome info for my next batch! The wait is driving me crazy... Much appreciated. Thanks again!

 

[dwhite60]

Take four of those bottles and put them somewhere for about six months. You'll be astounded how much better they are the longer they age. I find this with all the stouts and porters I do.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[THESULLI]

Yeah that is the plan. Some will be for friends/family, most will be for my immediate enjoyment (assuming it turns out) and some will will be keepers. I just checked on it and it is actually bubbling away more now than it was in the primary. So hopefully I will get down to that 1.012!

 

[CoreyD]

Take four of those bottles and put them somewhere for about six months. You'll be astounded how much better they are the longer they age. I find this with all the stouts and porters I do.

All the Best,
D. White

I second this. I brewed a Porter that was not good at first. Drank the last one 6 months later. Completely different beer. It got really good with age. If you can wait it's worth it.

 

[THESULLI]

I just wanted to give an update on this batch... Unfortunately my original concerns about flavor were accurate. It ended up tasting like carbonated brown grain tea instead of beer! Soooo..... I took a bottle into my local shop to get some pointers and they said that it is possible that my boil was not strong enough. They talked about starches not converting to sugars which can give it that grainy tea flavor. I did get a pretty decent fermentation going though so at least some of the starches were converted.

Anyway... Seeing as how this is my first batch I am not disappointed. In fact I was pretty much expecting it to be a bust. Haha! The good news is that the girlfriend and my mom both said that they want to try cooking with it so it will not go to waste!

If you guys can come up with any other reasons for it to turn out this way I would love the input. Any useful wisdom that I can take and use for batch #2 would be great!

Thanks guys!

 

[passedpawn]

I just wanted to give an update on this batch... Unfortunately my original concerns about flavor were accurate. It ended up tasting like carbonated brown grain tea instead of beer! Soooo..... I took a bottle into my local shop to get some pointers and they said that it is possible that my boil was not strong enough. They talked about starches not converting to sugars which can give it that grainy tea flavor. I did get a pretty decent fermentation going though so at least some of the starches were converted.

Anyway... Seeing as how this is my first batch I am not disappointed. In fact I was pretty much expecting it to be a bust. Haha! The good news is that the girlfriend and my mom both said that they want to try cooking with it so it will not go to waste!

If you guys can come up with any other reasons for it to turn out this way I would love the input. Any useful wisdom that I can take and use for batch #2 would be great!

Thanks guys!

I'm afraid that either you misunderstood their critique, or they don't know what they are talking about. Starches don't get converted to simpler sugars in the boil. That is the function of a "mash". The mash is for malted barley, because malt contains starches (large sugar molecules, namely maltose) and enzymes. Mill the malt, get it into water between 150F and 160F, and the enzymes in the malt break down those starches so that the yeast can gobble them. Temperatures over 170F will denature / permanently destroy the enzymes.

Mashing is NOT necessary for extract (dry extract and liquid extract) because the whole starch->simpler sugar process has been done for you.

I don't know exactly what went wrong in your process, mostly because I don't know what your process is, but it seems obvious your OG (original gravity) was low, which produced a weak beer. ALWAYS measure your OG and FG.

BTW, you might consider looking at www.howtobrew.com, which is the most succinct instruction on brewing. The book How To Brew (John Palmer) is even better, with about 10x more information. If you have one resource, make that the one.

And, WELCOME TO THE FORUM AND THE HOBBY!

 

[THESULLI]

I'm afraid that either you misunderstood their critique, or they don't know what they are talking about. Starches don't get converted to simpler sugars in the boil. That is the function of a "mash". The mash is for malted barley, because malt contains starches (large sugar molecules, namely maltose) and enzymes. Mill the malt, get it into water between 150F and 160F, and the enzymes in the malt break down those starches so that the yeast can gobble them. Temperatures over 170F will denature / permanently destroy the enzymes.

Mashing is NOT necessary for extract (dry extract and liquid extract) because the whole starch->simpler sugar process has been done for you.

I don't know exactly what went wrong in your process, mostly because I don't know what your process is, but it seems obvious your OG (original gravity) was low, which produced a weak beer. ALWAYS measure your OG and FG.

BTW, you might consider looking at www.howtobrew.com, which is the most succinct instruction on brewing. The book How To Brew (John Palmer) is even better, with about 10x more information. If you have one resource, make that the one.

And, WELCOME TO THE FORUM AND THE HOBBY!

That's what I thought! I remember videos online of the iodine test to check for conversion after the mash on an all grain batch... I must have misunderstood what they were saying then. I trust their knowledge so it must have been a misunderstanding on my part. I did have specialty grains though... Could the tea flavor come from that? Maybe my water was not hot enough when I was steeping them? I don't think that was it though because I was pretty dead on with the recipe instructions. I do know that my specialty grain bag was packed pretty tight so maybe the water did not penetrate all the way through the grains. This is something I remember wondering about about 5 mins after I started steeping them... I definitely learned a lesson there. Keep the bags loose so the grain can be completely submerged in water. What do you think?

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[passedpawn]

That's what I thought! I remember videos online of the iodine test to check for conversion after the mash on an all grain batch... I must have misunderstood what they were saying then. I trust their knowledge so it must have been a misunderstanding on my part. I did have specialty grains though... Could the tea flavor come from that? Maybe my water was not hot enough when I was steeping them? I don't think that was it though because I was pretty dead on with the recipe instructions. I do know that my specialty grain bag was packed pretty tight so maybe the water did not penetrate all the way through the grains. This is something I remember wondering about about 5 mins after I started steeping them... I definitely learned a lesson there. Keep the bags loose so the grain can be completely submerged in water. What do you think?

Thanks for the feedback!

You won't have the problem you experienced if your grains are milled, wet, and at 150-160 for an hour.

Get a hydrometer, a notebook, and get back on that horse Sulli.