Interesting German Brewing PDF

[rabeb25]

I don't know how you will get 2 kegs to work for you, unless you are able to vacuum and purge your final keg. If you want to get crazy cut your diptube, but fermenter to final gravity/lagering/serving keg is all thats needed.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I don't know how you will get 2 kegs to work for you, unless you are able to vacuum and purge your final keg. If you want to get crazy cut your diptube, but fermenter to final gravity/lagering/serving keg is all thats needed.

When I say two kegs, I mean using one as a primary.

 

[rabeb25]

When I say two kegs, I mean using one as a primary.

Ahh! Good call.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I picked up two 3 gallon kegs. I've been fermenting in a 5 gallon corny, pulling out sludge as it ferments, waiting until there is enough gravity to carb, and then close transferring to the 3 gallon. It works well and I wish that I hadn't moved and lost my ferm chamber in the process. you can do all this with a mini fridge, a heating blanket and an STC-1000

 

[bbohanon]

Update on my Octoberfest that I did full LODO and then spunded in the serving keg with water/priming sugar post fermentation to scavenge the oxygen..this one really does show more of the malt character than previous batches for sure..I can honestly say this is without a doubt one if not the best Octoberfest I have ever brewed..

It still needs about 2-3 more weeks of lagering to drop clear, but its very very good..Clean, no bite, smooth, the german malts really come through and the beer is 100% IMHO "to style".

I did a RIS this weekend that is fermenting in my new 15.5 Sanke fermenter that was NOT done LODO but I am going to spund it in the serving keg as I did with the Octoberfest.
This will also be the first batch I have done where the beer will never see the light of day (post brew kettle) oxygen wise until its in the glass as all x-ferring between primary and serving keg will be done pushing the beer around using C02 in a closed system so no more racking cane x-fer for me (whoo hoo!)..

Next up, I am going to brew a Hefewiezen LODO to see if its better than last years batch which was a smash hit when it was done non-LODO.

I can honestly say from my results, I DO believe there is benefit to this LODO brewing. I will also say that I do think certain styles see the benefit of it more than others do..
I personally dont think an IPA will see much of a benefit unless its going to stick around on tap for a while and you want to keep more of that IPA "Pop" to it as it ages..

Anything that is a malt forward style of beer I think is where you see this method really shine..

My next set of testing will be to see if I can brew a few non-LODO beers (like the octoberfest again with no-hot side LODO) using strict cold side oxygen control (spunding/complete purged closed system xfer from primary to serving keg) as I do think alot of the beer quality gets lost at that point for home brewers more than anything else and its a chronic problem for ANY style.

I know from past experience and with other fellow homebrewers coming into the hobby that sloppy cold side handling will cause premature spoilage with oxygen introduction.

:fro:

 

[rabeb25]

Congrats man! Great to hear! Your Hefe will thank you as well

 

[stpug]

Next up, I am going to brew a Hefewiezen LODO to see if its better than last years batch which was a smash hit when it was done non-LODO.

I just wanted to point out that several folks have had pretty poor (read: sulfur-hell) results using WLP351 in low oxygen brewing. In fact, several folks have noticed big residual sulfur with this yeast in NON low oxygen batches even.

On the other hand, Wyeast 3068 has shown success for some folks with low oxygen brewing. I've used this yeast years ago (before low oxy brewing) and it was excellent for bringing those classic banana/clove characteristics.

You can find a list of yeast strains and compatibility with SMB that I'm trying to keep updated here:
http://www.********************/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9&start=10#p401

 

[bbohanon]

I just wanted to point out that several folks have had pretty poor (read: sulfur-hell) results using WLP351 in low oxygen brewing. In fact, several folks have noticed big residual sulfur with this yeast in NON low oxygen batches even.

On the other hand, Wyeast 3068 has shown success for some folks with low oxygen brewing. I've used this yeast years ago (before low oxy brewing) and it was excellent for bringing those classic banana/clove characteristics.

You can find a list of yeast strains and compatibility with SMB that I'm trying to keep updated here:
http://www.********************/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9&start=10#p401

That sucks...the LHBS only carries White Labs as their house yeast (I am in NC so White Labs has a factory here that is local in Asheville). Will have to source some Wyeast for this if this is the case..I certainly dont want any sulfur bombs in my hefe..

 

[stpug]

That sucks...the LHBS only carries White Labs as their house yeast (I am in NC so White Labs has a factory here that is local in Asheville). Will have to source some Wyeast for this if this is the case..I certainly dont want any sulfur bombs in my hefe..

I'm with ya. I have a sulfurKolsch just lying in wait (on 2nd month in keg) that used Safale K-97 (another poor low oxy choice); I'm hoping the sulfur will fade away. I sampled it yesterday, and while it's better than it was in December, the first thing you smell and taste is the sulfur. Once you can get your brain beyond the sulfur, the underlying beer is quite good, but MAN is that sulfur distracting (and sulfurBurps are gross ).

If you're a gambler you can certainly see for yourself with WLP351, but I thought I would put that out there before you possibly end up where others have already been. I've never used WLP351 myself so I cannot comment on this strain from direct experience; just what I've read.

I wonder if Imperial, Omega, or other yeast manufacturers are available in your area that have a suitable hefe strain?

 

[bbohanon]

I'm with ya. I have a sulfurKolsch just lying in wait (on 2nd month in keg) that used Safale K-97 (another poor low oxy choice); I'm hoping the sulfur will fade away. I sampled it yesterday, and while it's better than it was in December, the first thing you smell and taste is the sulfur. Once you can get your brain beyond the sulfur, the underlying beer is quite good, but MAN is that sulfur distracting (and sulfurBurps are gross ).

If you're a gambler you can certainly see for yourself with WLP351, but I thought I would put that out there before you possibly end up where others have already been. I've never used WLP351 myself so I cannot comment on this strain from direct experience; just what I've read.

I wonder if Imperial, Omega, or other yeast manufacturers are available in your area that have a suitable hefe strain?

No thanks..no gambling here. I would rather do it non-LODO with zero sulfur than get the rotten egg beer..I get hints of sulfur in my hefe with white labs regardless at the tail end of the first week/beginning of the second week of fermentation as it is but it always is gone by the time I rack it.
Having it carry to the serving keg would really suck.

Yet more things to learn about LODO..not all the glitters is gold with this method for sure.

 

[TheHairyHop]

No thanks..no gambling here. I would rather do it non-LODO with zero sulfur than get the rotten egg beer..I get hints of sulfur in my hefe with white labs regardless at the tail end of the first week/beginning of the second week of fermentation as it is but it always is gone by the time I rack it.
Having it carry to the serving keg would really suck.

Yet more things to learn about LODO..not all the glitters is gold with this method for sure.

to be clear, if not a bit nitpicky, the use of SMB is not required for low dissolved oxygen. using it is just a method that allows for this to be achieved economically. although some styles may benefit from or require oxidation, I would go ahead and say that everything else does indeed glitter from LODO, based off of the general cost of oxidation with respect to flavor. the sulphur bombs are not a result of minimizing dissolved oxygen, but using SMB to achieve this

 

[stpug]

to be clear, if not a bit nitpicky, the use of SMB is not required for low dissolved oxygen. using it is just a method that allows for this to be achieved economically. although some styles may benefit from or require oxidation, I would go ahead and say that everything else does indeed glitter from LODO, based off of the general cost of oxidation with respect to flavor. the sulphur bombs are not a result of minimizing dissolved oxygen, but using SMB to achieve this

Excellent point that's easily (and frequently) overlooked.

There have been several batches I've brewed that I've not used SMB due to yeast/sulfur issues, but I did all other low oxy brewing methods (to the best of my abilities) and felt that I was still rewarded with better-than-typical-for-me beer. The biggest downside to these beers was longevity in the keg; they faded faster.

 

[techbrau]

The sulfur bombs are the result of overdosing on SMB If you're getting sulfur bombs then it means you should decrease your dose.

The tricky part is that each system is different and requires a different amount of SMB. So it takes some dialing in for your individual process.

Once your system is dialed in, you should be able to make beers with zero perceptible sulfur that have all of the non-oxidized malt flavor intact.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Anybody care to collect and collate a list of "SMB friendly" and "SMB UN-friendly" yeasts?
Also, I notice on the website the comment that the LO2 collective has not found a compatible dry yeast. Really? Not even 34/70? I've always found that one to be super forgiving and adaptable.

 

[stpug]

Anybody care to collect and collate a list of "SMB friendly" and "SMB UN-friendly" yeasts?

http://www.********************/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9&start=10#p401

Also, I notice on the website the comment that the LO2 collective has not found a compatible dry yeast. Really? Not even 34/70? I've always found that one to be super forgiving and adaptable.

I think this is a preferential choice of the brewer. The 34/70 yeast should be a perfectly acceptable yeast strain for low oxygen brewing processes if you like what 34/70 brings to the table.

On a more philosophical note, I would not call the low oxygen brewing any kind of "collective"; in fact, it's a fairly fragmented process and group at the moment. It's far from main-stream, far from standardized, and still pretty experimental (especially on a brewer-by-brewer basis). At least, that's how I see it at the present time. BUT, momentum seems to be picking up on all fronts, and many folks are enjoying the results of their labors and seeing improvement in various aspects of their beers (especially on the longevity/stability of the beer). Just one guy's opinion of course.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Anybody care to collect and collate a list of "SMB friendly" and "SMB UN-friendly" yeasts?
Also, I notice on the website the comment that the LO2 collective has not found a compatible dry yeast. Really? Not even 34/70? I've always found that one to be super forgiving and adaptable.

34/70 is the workorse. I totally agree with you that its a de facto reference yeast for these styles. W34/70 however, is only authentic as far as HBW is concerned, since its their catalogue If.

I'm currently testing the original.

Lets see how this turns out.

 

[joshesmusica]

Hasn't there also been some speculation that the 34/70 strain is actually a kolsch one?

 

[oujens]

I've recently stumbled across this and am a little overwhelmed with the back and forth. Me personally, I feel slight oxidation keeps my beers from shining even though I've improved my process to the point I enjoy everything out of my keg. I think post fermentation transfer hurts me the most. I'm brewing a brown ale this weekend and thought I might try some of this. What I can do (full volume BIAB):

Boil mash water
Use wort chiller
Gently stir mash
Add SMB
Simmer wort
Chill close to pitch temp
Aerate after pitching

The bad:
Copper wort chiller
Ferment in buckets
No closed transfer
No mash cap
No spunding valve

I think I can address the close transfer by transferring right before FG is reached and add priming sugar to keg.

Would my efforts here be a waste? Any issues? Very interested to see even some improvement in my beers. Thanks in advance

 

[stpug]

What I can do (full volume BIAB):

Boil mash water
Use wort chiller
Add SMB
Gently stir mash
Add SMB (moved above)
Simmer wort
Chill close to pitch temp
Aerate after pitching

The bad:
Copper wort chiller (no worries; don't clean the patina; remove from wort when not in use)
Ferment in buckets (no worries; yeast keep you protected here)
No closed transfer (no worries but keep focus on minimizing O2 pickup - splashing and such)
No mash cap (no worries, use foil or plastic wrap)
No spunding valve (no worries; just rack with remaining sugars or prime in primary then rack an hour later)

I think I can address the close transfer by transferring right before FG is reached and add priming sugar to keg.

Would my efforts here be a waste? Any issues? Very interested to see even some improvement in my beers. Thanks in advance

I do not believe your efforts would be a waste, and any "issues" you have are all things that you can tighten up later on down the road if you decide this is a path worth pursuing.

 

[oujens]

I do not believe your efforts would be a waste, and any "issues" you have are all things that you can tighten up later on down the road if you decide this is a path worth pursuing.

Thanks for the tips. I approach this with an open mind and knowing that my current process needs improvement whether or not I use LODO. I think it does make sense and appreciate all the work that has gone into this research and discussion. Only time will tell, but I'm very interested to see if I can achieve the results described.

 

[Edelst0ff]

For what it's worth, W177 would be your traditional Kölsch yeast.

But why speculate? Give them a call, they are very friendly to deal with.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

A question about oxidation due to copper, since the literature and especially the low oxygen website so strongly suggest avoiding it:

While there is scientific rationale suggesting that wort reactions with copper can contribute to oxidation, has anybody actually experimented, using a DO meter to show the difference in O2 uptake using a copper immersion chiller vs, say, stainless steel? In other words, two otherwise identical brews, measuring DO prior to chilling and then after using the two most common types of immersion chillers.

Maybe the difference is dramatic, maybe it is slight, and maybe it is functionally non-existent or irrelevant at the temperatures/ volumes/ pH we are working with.

I'm not suggesting it isn't a factor, I'm just saying that before we all assume that copper is bad here, what evidence is there to back up that assertion that Fenton reactions take place under the conditions of wort chilling other than the assumption that they will?

Thoughts?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

One additional concern I have is this:
In the original document and in several other posts here, contributors talk about sulfur bombs if the right mix of SMB isn't achieved.
I am planning to try my hand at a low O2 German Pils as my first foray, but I don' want to go to all the trouble if it's going to be an iterative process where I may want to toss out my first few batches because because they reek of brimstone.

So are the SMB guidelines here a mid-range dose? A conservative dose? An aggressive dose?
What if I use a yeast that produces sulfur (which ages out eventually), am I risking creating a rotten egg pilsner?

I guess I understand everything is an iterative process where you strive for continual improvement, and maybe it's overstated, but reading the original document and several comments make me think you're rolling the dice the first time you try a LoDO recipe because you might end up with an undrinkable sulfur bomb.

Someone ease my concerns here.

 

[stpug]

One additional concern I have is this:
In the original document and in several other posts here, contributors talk about sulfur bombs if the right mix of SMB isn't achieved.
I am planning to try my hand at a low O2 German Pils as my first foray, but I don' want to go to all the trouble if it's going to be an iterative process where I may want to toss out my first few batches because because they reek of brimstone.

So are the SMB guidelines here a mid-range dose? A conservative dose? An aggressive dose?
What if I use a yeast that produces sulfur (which ages out eventually), am I risking creating a rotten egg pilsner?

I guess I understand everything is an iterative process where you strive for continual improvement, and maybe it's overstated, but reading the original document and several comments make me think you're rolling the dice the first time you try a LoDO recipe because you might end up with an undrinkable sulfur bomb.

Someone ease my concerns here.

As far as I've been able to gather, which has not been exhaustive, lager yeast strains are less likely to leave you with excessive sulfur character in the beer. You *should* have some sulfur remaining though, as that's one of the subtle characteristics of lager beers that makes them different (subtle, in this sense, may mean almost undetectable to very low levels that don't disrupt the enjoyment of the beer).

SMB levels you should target completely depend on how tight your process and system is. Assuming a semi-poor system, targeting about 40mg/l of SMB is a great starting point that should not result in excessive sulfur, and this should be fairly in-line with what the pdf suggests. With a much more tight system, you may only target 20-25mg/l levels. If you wish to ensure no residual sulfur (aside from yeast derived), then regardless of tightness of your system, target ~25mg/l levels (safe level). I personally believe there is incremental improvement with incremental change as you develop your own process and system.

I don't think you risk a dumper if you err on the side of caution; plus you get a glimpse into how it affects the overall final product. Then, next time you can choose to go heavier/lighter on dosing as you see fit.

As far as copper is concerned, I have no great input aside from the usual: "Warning: Sharks may be present in these waters". That doesn't guarantee you'll get bit, but the potential needs to be stated. I also use copper (as minimally as possible) in my process, and I still see improvement in beers.

 

[schematix]

A question about oxidation due to copper, since the literature and especially the low oxygen website so strongly suggest avoiding it:

While there is scientific rationale suggesting that wort reactions with copper can contribute to oxidation, has anybody actually experimented, using a DO meter to show the difference in O2 uptake using a copper immersion chiller vs, say, stainless steel? In other words, two otherwise identical brews, measuring DO prior to chilling and then after using the two most common types of immersion chillers.

Maybe the difference is dramatic, maybe it is slight, and maybe it is functionally non-existent or irrelevant at the temperatures/ volumes/ pH we are working with.

I'm not suggesting it isn't a factor, I'm just saying that before we all assume that copper is bad here, what evidence is there to back up that assertion that Fenton reactions take place under the conditions of wort chilling other than the assumption that they will?

Thoughts?

Here's the science...

http://www.********************/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Metals-and-Beer-Stability.pdf

The metals catalyze reactions that result in free oxygen (i think, it's been a while since i took chemistry but that's what it looks like to me).

Just a thought.... anyone considered adding EDTA if using a copper chiller?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

And lastly, the Methods of the Low Oxygen Brewhouse article suggests that small amounts of Vienna or Munich malt combined with Pilsner malt can produce off-flavors.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!

Since when????
Vienna and Munich malts are routinely combined with Pils malt for just about every kind of German beer.

Would anyone care to expand on that, because it sounds like pure nonsense.

 

[schematix]

And lastly, the Methods of the Low Oxygen Brewhouse article suggests that small amounts of Vienna or Munich malt combined with Pilsner malt can produce off-flavors.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!

Since when????
Vienna and Munich malts are routinely combined with Pils malt for just about every kind of German beer.

Would anyone care to expand on that, because it sounds like pure nonsense.

The suggestion is to not use a small amount of vienna or munich in a predominantly Pils beer because the flavors come through to strong.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

SMB levels you should target completely depend on how tight your process and system is. Assuming a semi-poor system, targeting about 40mg/l of SMB is a great starting point that should not result in excessive sulfur, and this should be fairly in-line with what the pdf suggests. With a much more tight system, you may only target 20-25mg/l levels. If you wish to ensure no residual sulfur (aside from yeast derived), then regardless of tightness of your system, target ~25mg/l levels (safe level). I personally believe there is incremental improvement with incremental change as you develop your own process and system.

I don't think you risk a dumper if you err on the side of caution; plus you get a glimpse into how it affects the overall final product. Then, next time you can choose to go heavier/lighter on dosing as you see fit.

Thanks. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

Here's the science...
http://www.********************/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Metals-and-Beer-Stability.pdf
The metals catalyze reactions that result in free oxygen (i think, it's been a while since i took chemistry but that's what it looks like to me).

Thanks for that. I will read it in more detail when I can, but a cursory skim of it looks like it focuses on the commercial scale.
I would be really curious to see someone do an experiment to quantify O2 uptake from a copper IC, since that is the most common copper appliance used by homebrewers (especially an experienced low O2 brewer who has a tight process and can more precisely isolate the variable in question - hint, hint, gauntlet dropped).

I don't doubt the chemistry, I'm just curious about its impact on our scale as opposed to a commercial brewery scale.

It's funny, because in one of my old early homebrew books (maybe even Papazian - I don't know, I'd have to look for the source), there was a recommendation to incorporate copper, if possible due to the flavor enhancement it can provide. Oh how times change.

The suggestion is to not use a small amount of vienna or munich in a predominantly Pils beer because the flavors come through to strong.

Okay, that makes sense if that's the intent, but if that's the case, it wasn't phrased very well because it says they contribute "undesirable flavors", and it only references small amounts, which could be (was) interpreted as saying larger amounts are okay, but small amounts will just F things up. (for reference, the exact quote is:"Vienna and Munich malts blended in small amounts with Pilsner can add undesirable flavor elements as less Sodium Metabisulfite (NaMeta, SMB) is used").

What you say makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

So would you think a half pound of Vienna in a Pils (5 gal) would present too strongly in a moderately low O2 brew?


Aaaaaand lastly, do any of you guys purge your transfer lines with CO2 prior to putting wort through them? I'm not sure its necessary, but I always do that when racking (and "purge-ish" my receiving vessels as well). It would be an easy habit t to ransfer.

 

[schematix]

Aaaaaand lastly, do any of you guys purge your transfer lines with CO2 prior to putting wort through them? I'm not sure its necessary, but I always do that when racking (and "purge-ish" my receiving vessels as well). It would be an easy habit t to ransfer.

I do. I connect them to my empty pressurized serving keg and then use my finger my press the poppet on the other end. When you total up the volume of the racking hose it's actually quite a bit....

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I do. I connect them to my empty pressurized serving keg and then use my finger my press the poppet on the other end. When you total up the volume of the racking hose it's actually quite a bit....

Thanks. What about on the hot side? That's where I was thinking more.

 

[schematix]

Thanks. What about on the hot side? That's where I was thinking more.

On the hot side i use the wort to push the air out of the hoses before i turn any pumps on. This is not only for aeration, but also because air bubbling through lines makes a big mess.

I typically open up the bottom drain on the source vessel and let the wort push the air out the other end of the hose. If you lift the other end above the liquid level it stops. Magic. Once the tube is full of wort then i connect it to the destination (or back to itself for recirc). There is only a small air-wort interface at that point.

When i rack to my FV i rack to the bottom and let it fill from the bottom up.

 

[stpug]

When i rack to my FV i rack to the bottom and let it fill from the bottom up.

When I rack to my FV I splash rack onto the surface of the liquid to incorporate air and help with yeast slurry mixing (which is already in my receiving FV). I've actually stopped using any pure O2 in favor of this method on standard gravity ales. Horses for courses, I guess

Lagers still supplemented with get pure O2, as do higher gravity ales.

 

[rabeb25]

And lastly, the Methods of the Low Oxygen Brewhouse article suggests that small amounts of Vienna or Munich malt combined with Pilsner malt can produce off-flavors.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!

Since when????
Vienna and Munich malts are routinely combined with Pils malt for just about every kind of German beer.

Would anyone care to expand on that, because it sounds like pure nonsense.

Sure as those are my words, and the words of a few of us. I find small amounts of these malts (say 5% and below) just distracting when it comes to the beers. Vienna is really really doughy to me like fresh pizza dough, and munich comes across in small amounts as slighty sour and muddy. So I either add none or add enough so its there.. i.e. Festbier. But I personally do not like them in small amounts. A lot of people do, but the dough and twang are really apparent to me. I have been meaning to make a blog post on recipe formulation, cause I suspect its not what people are really used to. Malts taste different now (low oxygen), and we as Americans ave generally severely missed the mark on recreating recipes for German beers properly (myself included). According to the German brewing bibles (listed in our reference materials), Vienna is used to correct overpale malts, and festival beers. So you will find very few recipes with vienna in them.

As far as resources go, we have a very expansive library on the site... Should be enough to wet anyone's appetite.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Sure as those are my words, and the words of a few of us. I find small amounts of these malts (say 5% and below) just distracting when it comes to the beers. Vienna is really really doughy to me like fresh pizza dough, and munich comes across in small amounts as slighty sour and muddy. So I either add none or add enough so its there.. i.e. Festbier. But I personally do not like them in small amounts. A lot of people do, but the dough and twang are really apparent to me. I have been meaning to make a blog post on recipe formulation, cause I suspect its not what people are really used to. Malts taste different now (low oxygen), and we as Americans ave generally severely missed the mark on recreating recipes for German beers properly (myself included). According to the German brewing bibles (listed in our reference materials), Vienna is used to correct overpale malts, and festival beers. So you will find very few recipes with vienna in them.

As far as resources go, we have a very expansive library on the site... Should be enough to wet anyone's appetite.

While I don't question your experience with low O2 brewing, I will suggest that it sounds like you are putting your personal palate and taste preferences up as fact instead of opinion.

I usually put 10% Vienna in my Helles, but no caramel malts because I prefer the dryer bready flavor provided by Vienna to the sweeter caramelized flavor of carahell, et al, to boost the plavor of the Pils malt. But that's my preference.
That said, I do not yet have experience with low O2 brewing enough to assess the claim that malts taste different (not just fresher) brewed via low O2 brewing. I look forward to trying it, and I will report back my results and perceptions for posterity.
Maybe my 10% Vienna Helles will be gross brewed low O2, maybe low O2 will amplify its glorious flavor. We'll see (but my first foray into low O2 will be a German Pils because my SWMBO's father is coming to visit from Germany and he loves a good Pils, so I owe him one).

 

[rabeb25]

I think you are looking too far Into it.
"Vienna and Munich malts blended in small amounts with Pilsner can add undesirable flavor elements as less Sodium Metabisulfite (NaMeta, SMB) is used (flavor intensity increases as system “tightness” increases)"
Is the exact quote..Can add. Doesn't say will add, I am not explicitly saying to not do it. Nor did I give you amounts.
Low oxygen flavors are not even close to normal flavors. In a nicely executed beer you can easily pick up 1% malt choice differences. I can pick up .5% roast malt in a beer. Non-oxidized low oxygen malts taste different. Nearly all commercial examples have cara malts in them. Helles is usually something like carahell( not caramelized flavor, it's beautiful fresh honey) or caramunich. Add 10% Vienna with it and you have a pretty stock helles recipe. Helles are usually made with 4ebc malt. We can't usually get 4ebc malt, but we can try and make it ourself using Vienna, Munich or pale ale malt. If your pils is 1.7ebc you need something to darken and make up the difference. Weihenstephan chooses to use carahell for the darkening of the base malts to the tune of about 8% for their helles, original. It's going to take trial and error for you. What was sweet and cloying ( typical oxidized cara's from HSA) will Not be anymore. I highly suggest doing low oxygen mini mashes with potential recipe formulations to get a feel for it.
It's all good. I understand the shock and awe. I was there 2+ years ago.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I look forward to exploring the space of low O2.

I was reading too much into it, in light of your explanation, but that's why I asked for an explanation, because the statement by itself, to someone who is only just gaining familiarity with the process, is a shocking one and very counter to the experience of us "regular O2" brewers.
It also raises flags when you say something will contribute undesirable flavors without an explanation of what those off flavors are. Here I'm thinking it's going to add weird esters (at best) or perhaps even nasty, non-beer (truly undesirable) flavors.

You've got to forgive me, I've got a Masters degree in writing, so words mean things to me.
I just needed and explanation, which you kindly provided.
Thank you, sir.

 

[oujens]

I think you are looking too far Into it.
"Vienna and Munich malts blended in small amounts with Pilsner can add undesirable flavor elements as less Sodium Metabisulfite (NaMeta, SMB) is used (flavor intensity increases as system “tightness” increases)"
Is the exact quote..Can add. Doesn't say will add, I am not explicitly saying to not do it. Nor did I give you amounts.
Low oxygen flavors are not even close to normal flavors. In a nicely executed beer you can easily pick up 1% malt choice differences. I can pick up .5% roast malt in a beer. Non-oxidized low oxygen malts taste different. Nearly all commercial examples have cara malts in them. Helles is usually something like carahell( not caramelized flavor, it's beautiful fresh honey) or caramunich. Add 10% Vienna with it and you have a pretty stock helles recipe. Helles are usually made with 4ebc malt. We can't usually get 4ebc malt, but we can try and make it ourself using Vienna, Munich or pale ale malt. If your pils is 1.7ebc you need something to darken and make up the difference. Weihenstephan chooses to use carahell for the darkening of the base malts to the tune of about 8% for their helles, original. It's going to take trial and error for you. What was sweet and cloying ( typical oxidized cara's from HSA) will Not be anymore. I highly suggest doing low oxygen mini mashes with potential recipe formulations to get a feel for it.
It's all good. I understand the shock and awe. I was there 2+ years ago.

I find this very interesting. We have a local German brewery that makes the maltiest lagers I have tasted. There is what I call a "signature" flavor that I cannot taste in other beers. I have a friend that said the same thing. Not sure if they employ low oxygen brewing, but a lot of the comments here make me think its a possibility. One in particular was to use "very little" munich if brewing their lager which I think would be classified as a Helles. There is so much flavor I could swear they used more than a little. I would like to try brewing that again with low oxygen to see if I can pick up a similar flavor. Going to try to employ as much as I can on a brown ale tomorrow and go from there.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I find this very interesting. We have a local German brewery that makes the maltiest lagers I have tasted. There is what I call a "signature" flavor that I cannot taste in other beers. I have a friend that said the same thing. Not sure if they employ low oxygen brewing, but a lot of the comments here make me think its a possibility. One in particular was to use "very little" munich if brewing their lager which I think would be classified as a Helles. There is so much flavor I could swear they used more than a little. I would like to try brewing that again with low oxygen to see if I can pick up a similar flavor. Going to try to employ as much as I can on a brown ale tomorrow and go from there.

if you ever get a chance to go to Live Oak or get their beers on draft, both Primus and their Hefeweizen are excellent examples of the style. I don't like their cans though

 

[oujens]

if you ever get a chance to go to Live Oak or get their beers on draft, both Primus and their Hefeweizen are excellent examples of the style. I don't like their cans though

I went there last summer and always order a Hefe on tap. They have a great setup. Can't wait to go back with cooler weather and enjoy the outdoor area.

 

[rabeb25]

I look forward to exploring the space of low O2.

I was reading too much into it, in light of your explanation, but that's why I asked for an explanation, because the statement by itself, to someone who is only just gaining familiarity with the process, is a shocking one and very counter to the experience of us "regular O2" brewers.
It also raises flags when you say something will contribute undesirable flavors without an explanation of what those off flavors are. Here I'm thinking it's going to add weird esters (at best) or perhaps even nasty, non-beer (truly undesirable) flavors.

You've got to forgive me, I've got a Masters degree in writing, so words mean things to me.
I just needed and explanation, which you kindly provided.
Thank you, sir.

No worries, completely understand.