You need some yeast carried over to finish the last few gravity points, but not too much. Ideally you want to carry over the "hangers on", the cells that take a few weeks to drop out as opposed to the cells which sediment quickly once fermentation finishes up.
Interesting German Brewing PDF
- Thread starter rabeb25
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I'm pretty sure I got some slurry in there as I'm not used to using my SS Brewbucket yet. I could see it in the clear transfer tube as I was pushing the beer into the keg.
So with my cunsumption time frame being about 18-20 something days from ferment to glass...do you recommend still getting it off the yeast that's in the keg?
If you can guarantee you're not getting any air underneath your lid when reattaching it after submersion, I think your way of doing it works just fine. I'm just not confident I could do that. It seems you'd have to have extremely steady hands.
Cutting the gas in post is less than 5 minutes of work, including removing the post and reattaching it. Even less time if your dip tube is one of those cheap plastic jobs.
Ok I'll have to look into cutting it down.
I won't be able to brew for a little over two weeks. Once I can get to that point, it'll attempt to go as LoDO as possible with my setup, and then post the steps here so you guys can show me where it's likely still getting ruined! It'll be a hoppy beer, so I won't be chasing the special malty flavor (probably just be Pilsner and wheat malt). But I would like to see the hoppiness still there to the last pint!
I won't be able to brew for a little over two weeks. Once I can get to that point, it'll attempt to go as LoDO as possible with my setup, and then post the steps here so you guys can show me where it's likely still getting ruined! It'll be a hoppy beer, so I won't be chasing the special malty flavor (probably just be Pilsner and wheat malt). But I would like to see the hoppiness still there to the last pint!
I made the LoDO Oatmeal Stout today. Overall went flawless except I had troubles recirculating. Oddly enough it wasn't gluey at all, just tight. Might open up the grain mill a little next time. Other "fun" thing was 15 minutes into the boil the water company decided to shut off the water main on our street due to a rupture. Fortunately it came back on with an hour, so at BKO i killed the heat, put the lid on, and let it coast. Ended up going 20 minutes longer than desired.
The wort sample was extremely delicious. It had the honey sweet LoDO flavor (63% of the recipe was MO) but with a sweet chocolate finish. I didn't think the roast was amplified at all - if anything it was smoother and more subtle. Really looking forward to trying this in a couple weeks.
The wort sample was extremely delicious. It had the honey sweet LoDO flavor (63% of the recipe was MO) but with a sweet chocolate finish. I didn't think the roast was amplified at all - if anything it was smoother and more subtle. Really looking forward to trying this in a couple weeks.
trav77
Well-Known Member
I followed this thread in the beginning but unsub'd when it was getting a bit nasty. Now that some others have had a chance to experiment with this process I have one major question.
It seems as though the most difficult part of the process is spunding in the keg. Has anyone tried implementing the process but simply doing a closed transfer to a fully liquid purged keg instead of spunding?
I'm sure the answer is in here somewhere but it's a huge thread now so thought I'd just ask. I'd like to give it a shot sometime soon.
It seems as though the most difficult part of the process is spunding in the keg. Has anyone tried implementing the process but simply doing a closed transfer to a fully liquid purged keg instead of spunding?
I'm sure the answer is in here somewhere but it's a huge thread now so thought I'd just ask. I'd like to give it a shot sometime soon.
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I just want to make sure I understand what you're asking. Are you asking if anyone has attempted to let the beer go to final gravity and then transfer to a properly purged keg?
If so, I believe the pioneers of this concept have tried it and failed. There's apparently still too much O2 pick up with what is essentially a transfer from one keg to the other.
If you're asking if folks have tried transferring to a properly purged keg but not attached a relief valve that goes off at a set pressure, then I think the answer to that is also yes, there are some on here who do that and just let the keg naturally carbonate.
Someone chime in if I'm off on either of those.
For those that condition their malts, anyone try steaming it? Sounds like a really easy way to condition if you have the right equipment.
http://beerandwinejournal.com/malt-conditioning/
Might give it a whirl next time.
http://beerandwinejournal.com/malt-conditioning/
Might give it a whirl next time.
trav77
Well-Known Member
This is what I'm asking. So are we talking instant loss of flavour or "might start to drop off in 2 months" loss of flavour?
OP
OP
rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
OP
OP
rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
Depending on your pick up from 1 week to 4 weeks probably.
I don't spund and this sounds about right. I made a Helles that was amazing for the first 3-4 weeks. Full of fresh grain and honey sweetness. After that it lost its magic. Still decent but lifeless in comparison. Other styles do much better but it was really noticeable in the Helles.
I don't put a spund valve on my serving kegs - I just close them up and let them finish fermenting. I'll hook up the spund valve to them every so often (which has a pressure gauge), and if it's too high i'll burp them. Low tech but very simple.
I will never not keg condition a beer again. The two LoDOs that i had to do this to due to timing have been phenomenal.
I will never not keg condition a beer again. The two LoDOs that i had to do this to due to timing have been phenomenal.
I stopped using my spunding valve too. I just rack to the sealed keg with 4 gravity points left and it ends up perfect. I wouldn't recommend that to anyone however unless your process is very predictable and your measurements accurate.
LoDO is pretty mind-blowing, isn't it?
LoDO is pretty mind-blowing, isn't it?
LoDO is pretty mind-blowing, isn't it?
Actually it kinda pisses me off - it adds a lot of work to my brew day over my previous process. I was really trying to simplify and shorten my brew day, but no more!
The beer produced by this process is amazing. No turning back.
It does add work, but so does the move to all grain from extract.
Maybe it sounds weird, but to me discovering LoDO was completely validating and renewed my interest in brewing. The hitchhikers guide quote on the first page on the PDF sums up how I felt towards brewing in general before we discovered LoDO. Nothing seemed to matter, nothing really changed the beer. Brulosophy kept demonstrating that to everybody and time again. My beer was stuck on a big plateau of mediocrity. Yet here were these crazy Germans with their hundred million dollar high tech breweries and ridiculous attention to detail making the best beer I'd ever tasted - but I could never replicate it! Something about all that didn't sit right with me.
Maybe it sounds weird, but to me discovering LoDO was completely validating and renewed my interest in brewing. The hitchhikers guide quote on the first page on the PDF sums up how I felt towards brewing in general before we discovered LoDO. Nothing seemed to matter, nothing really changed the beer. Brulosophy kept demonstrating that to everybody and time again. My beer was stuck on a big plateau of mediocrity. Yet here were these crazy Germans with their hundred million dollar high tech breweries and ridiculous attention to detail making the best beer I'd ever tasted - but I could never replicate it! Something about all that didn't sit right with me.
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
On process - I've found that if I rack to keg slightly early (or with a bit of spiesse or dextrose) and let it carb up, I capture "it" without a spund valve.
Takes forever to condition, though.
Once finished, my kegs don't last 5 months or even close to it, so that helps too...
Takes forever to condition, though.
Once finished, my kegs don't last 5 months or even close to it, so that helps too...
How many points out would you recommend for kegging up a weissbier? I figure since I don't have a spunding valve and the co2 vol is much higher it would be harder to screw up.
Well, I did, and it doesn't mention decoction mashing anywhere (not in a PDF search at least). The paper (more of a collection of observations which is cool) doesn't address it.
I haven't see it anywhere but, no one has mentioned Noonan's book and how he mentions that those really malty flavors are hard to achieve without a decoction. Some things in his book go against low O2 principle such a vigorous boil which is necessary to break down the wort properly in essence. Noonen's book is a few years old, is it no longer valid in some ways?
I haven't see it anywhere but, no one has mentioned Noonan's book and how he mentions that those really malty flavors are hard to achieve without a decoction. Some things in his book go against low O2 principle such a vigorous boil which is necessary to break down the wort properly in essence. Noonen's book is a few years old, is it no longer valid in some ways?
I would not rely on Noonan for information on brewing German lagers. I've been to Vermont Pub & Brewery, and frankly their beer was pretty bad.
If you want to make beer that tastes what the likes of Augustiner, Andechs, Weihenstephaner or Ayinger are making nowadays, you're better off reading the same textbooks that the people who work for those breweries read when they went to university in Germany getting their brewing degrees. You can find the references to those at the end of the PDF. The PDF itself is essentially an extremely condensed version of the key takeaways from those books, adapted for a homebrewing system.
If you want to make beer that tastes what the likes of Augustiner, Andechs, Weihenstephaner or Ayinger are making nowadays, you're better off reading the same textbooks that the people who work for those breweries read when they went to university in Germany getting their brewing degrees. You can find the references to those at the end of the PDF. The PDF itself is essentially an extremely condensed version of the key takeaways from those books, adapted for a homebrewing system.
Ah, thanks a lot Techbrau. Ive always been a bit leary about some of the books that I have purchased since I could really not tell how good the authors credential's really where, and how they became an "authority" of any kind, and why some of their information contradicted one another. A German point of view, vested in formal education is something I have been really struggling to find. Really appreciate the info.
But then are you guys saying none of the traditional German breweries are doing decoction anymore?
That was one question of mine never really answered: several that I talked to in Prague said that all the good Czech breweries are still using decoction. Urquell was one of those mentioned as having that unique malty character, but everyone I talked to there in Prague said they're still doing the decoction even there. Is this just folklore?
Edit: Never mind. Found it on their website:
http://pilsnerurquell.com/se/article/pilsner-urquell-triple-decoction
Seems they're doing quite a lot against the Low O2 brewing, yet they were named as a beer with this defining characteristic.
That was one question of mine never really answered: several that I talked to in Prague said that all the good Czech breweries are still using decoction. Urquell was one of those mentioned as having that unique malty character, but everyone I talked to there in Prague said they're still doing the decoction even there. Is this just folklore?
Edit: Never mind. Found it on their website:
http://pilsnerurquell.com/se/article/pilsner-urquell-triple-decoction
Seems they're doing quite a lot against the Low O2 brewing, yet they were named as a beer with this defining characteristic.
wobdee
Junior Member
I stopped using my spunding valve too. I just rack to the sealed keg with 4 gravity points left and it ends up perfect. I wouldn't recommend that to anyone however unless your process is very predictable and your measurements accurate.
LoDO is pretty mind-blowing, isn't it?
Your talking specific gravity points not Plato correct?
OP
OP
rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
Yup, specific gravity.
I don't have experience with decoction, but conceptually I don't see the benefit. It made sense before the days of thermometers as boiling is as hot as you can make anything, so it created a simple baseline. But we have highly accurate/repeatable probes and science of enzymes now. I can see a commercial brewery doing it "like they always have", but for novel brews I don't see the sense.
I don't think you can do it in LODO but the pros here will decide that.
I don't think you can do it in LODO but the pros here will decide that.
wobdee
Junior Member
Just about ready to give this spunding thing a try. Ive done quite a few lodo cold ferments and got my refractometer figured out so I can take samples to figure where I'm at without wasting too much beer with hydrometer samples since I do small 2.5 gal batches. Looks like I can get a 1.050 brew fermented, kegged, spunded and lowered down to a 32° lagering temp by day 14. This will free up my fermenting chamber so I can keep my every other week brewing schedule going and not have to buy another fridge.
Realized the other day i totally invalidated this experiment. The original recipe calls for Briess Black Barley (500L). I used Thomas Fawcette Roasted Barley (500-700L). Unfortunately it didn't click with me until afterwards that i had gone out of my way to get the 500L stuff last time. I just saw "Roasted Barley" on the recipe and bought that.
My fermentation sample, now at 6 plato (FFT indicated FG of 3.7 plato), has some notes of coffee and dark chocolate. I still think this is going to be good, but i can't call this a true experiment without using an identical recipe. Maybe next year when i make it again i'll do it right....
