Interesting German Brewing PDF

[schematix]

My last batch had extensive dough balls. It was no-stir and recirculated for 90 minutes. 67% efficiency (i normally get 85-90%). My first batch I gave a gentle stir with mash paddle after i underlet it, and had 80% efficiency. Next time i'm going to underlet and give 1 stir to break up dough balls. I used conditioned malt with a 0.035 gap on my BC. It recirculated so well i'm going to take it down to 0.032 next time.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I don't have any dough balls by the time I get through the protein rest. I mash in at acid rest temps and bring it up to the first sacc rest from there. Better efficiency, better clarity, no gummed up grain bed or stuck sparges. I know what everyone says about how highly modified today's malts are but I've noticed nothing but benefits. Granted I'm moving through those temp zones in about half the time you'd normally take for those mash rests not doing the full 20-30 min rest.

While I'm thinking of it...does anyone have any ideas on a mash cap for a Braumeister?

 

[Bilsch]

I also have a recirculating system and stir gently once after the underlet, mostly to dislodge the numerous small air bubbles that adhere to the grain. The benefits of removing this source of DO surely outweigh any negative effects of molesting the mash.

 

[Edelst0ff]

It's possible to dough in lower at a 1:2 ratio, lets say 35C, then "jump" over the protein rest by infusing with hot water to set-point.

Downside is that one loses some of the o2 protective aspect when doughing in low.

That's why I love the maltase mash for wheat beers since it's a very elegant solution by limiting the potential damadge as opposed to a traditional hefe mash, with the nice side effect of increasing the production of ethyl-acetate and isoamyl-acetate considerably, reducing the acetaldehyde considerably at the same time.

For what it's worth I still dough in with a running agitator (gently), introducing the grain carefully.

What we really want is a "Vormaischer", then clumps are history.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

That's why I love the maltase mash for wheat beers since it's a very elegant solution by limiting the potential damadge as opposed to a traditional hefe mash, with the nice side effect of increasing the production of ethyl-acetate and isoamyl-acetate considerably, reducing the acetaldehyde considerably at the same time.

I ran a Hermann/hochkurz schedule on the Weizenbock I recently made and it made me a believer. I'd like to test it against adding dextrose to the boil sometime.

 

[storunner13]

I ran a Hermann/hochkurz schedule on the Weizenbock I recently made and it made me a believer. I'd like to test it against adding dextrose to the boil sometime.

This is good to hear. The hefeweizen I'm planning to brew next week is going to get the the Hermann schedule. Weihenstephaner strain? How did you perceive the differences from a normal step mash schedule?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

This is good to hear. The hefeweizen I'm planning to brew next week is going to get the the Hermann schedule. Weihenstephaner strain? How did you perceive the differences from a normal step mash schedule?

Yea 3068. I usually get a lot of bubblegum with clove underneath in my Hef but the profile on this has significantly more banana and vanilla.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

For anyone that is using Brewtan, did your strike water turn a purple shade before mash in? This has happened on two batches. No off flavors from it that I can tell.

 

[schematix]

I was waiting to post this until I tapped the second keg of my first lodo batch, but since the topic of oxidation with force carbing has come up, i'll post about my recent experience.

My first lodo helles batch made about 12 gallons, split across 3 kegs. Unfortunately I was only able to carbonate to about 2 volumes due spunding valve leaks and crap hydrometers. For serving I went ahead and hooked it up to my standard 10-12 psi and thus gave it the extra 0.5 vols or so. Well its been a little over a month and the sweet grainy flavor that was initially very prominent is 100% gone and has been replaced by a flavor reminiscent of white wine (although not to the same extent as my usual 100% force carbonated beers).

The remaining 2 kegs haven't seen any force carbonation yet so it'll be interesting when i tap them to see if they still have the sweet grainy flavor and if they also diminish with time.

My first LoDO Helles keg just bit the dust, so i killed the last half glass then switched over to a keg that hasn't ever seen tank CO2.

First of all, wow, the cloying sweetness is gone, it is fully carbonated, and the sweet grain flavor punches you right in your tongue. I guess it must have dropped another point or two over the past 2 months. Hoping it stays that way.

 

[Yeastieboy]

Sounds encouraging. Cheers!

 

[Jwin]

So, in the interest of low o2 post fermentation, I'm looking at keg priming.
I do 11g batches in a 60l Speidel. I purge kegs with starsan/co2, then gravity feed through a purged hose I to kegs, feeding the co2 out of the keg back to the FV. I do a good amount of hoppy brews and kegging with a few gravity points left isn't viable with 2 kids, 2 acres and a 50+ hour work week. I do swell the FV lid with co2 before and during cold crashing to avoid o2 suckback. I'm working g on a more elegant solution there.
My thought is to use a 20ml syringe to prime the keg but interfacing it is the issue.
I found these:http://www.coleparmer.com/Category/316_Stainless_Steel_Luer_Fittings/64135

A 7/16 - 20 unf would mate with a 1/4 MFL barb but I can't seem to find one, even in plastic, and those stainless fittings are pricey.

Anyone else have a solution to this?

 

[TexasWine]

So, in the interest of low o2 post fermentation, I'm looking at keg priming.
I do 11g batches in a 60l Speidel. I purge kegs with starsan/co2, then gravity feed through a purged hose I to kegs, feeding the co2 out of the keg back to the FV. I do a good amount of hoppy brews and kegging with a few gravity points left isn't viable with 2 kids, 2 acres and a 50+ hour work week. I do swell the FV lid with co2 before and during cold crashing to avoid o2 suckback. I'm working g on a more elegant solution there.
My thought is to use a 20ml syringe to prime the keg but interfacing it is the issue.
I found these:http://www.coleparmer.com/Category/316_Stainless_Steel_Luer_Fittings/64135

A 7/16 - 20 unf would mate with a 1/4 MFL barb but I can't seem to find one, even in plastic, and those stainless fittings are pricey.

Anyone else have a solution to this?

What if you just opened the lid ever so briefly and poured the priming solution in? The point of keg priming with low DO brewing is to scavenge oxygen, right? So any oxygen introduced by opening the lid and gently pouring in priming solution should be used up.

Seems that you could even do this before transferring to the keg.

Or, what if you hooked up your Speidel to the keg during fermentation and allowed it to purge co2 through it? Connect the Speidel to the keg's liquid post. Then run the keg's gas post over to a blow off. If you do this, you could pre-prime the keg with your priming solution before fermentation. When fermentation is done, do your transfer as usual and your done.

 

[Jwin]

Or, what if you hooked up your Speidel to the keg during fermentation and allowed it to purge co2 through it? Connect the Speidel to the keg's liquid post. Then run the keg's gas post over to a blow off. If you do this, you could pre-prime the keg with your priming solution before fermentation. When fermentation is done, do your transfer as usual and your done.

I have considered this but that would only take care of one keg and it would still push o2 into the keg as co2 production begins.
I'm thinking removing the post and shooting the solution into the keg with a syringe would probably be the easiest way

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

What if you just opened the lid ever so briefly and poured the priming solution in? The point of keg priming with low DO brewing is to scavenge oxygen, right? So any oxygen introduced by opening the lid and gently pouring in priming solution should be used up.

That's what I've been thinking. Treat the keg as normal then quickly add the priming solution and follow up with purging at 30psi afterwards. The time between opening the keg and purging the headspace is only a few seconds. That shouldn't leave much for the yeast.

 

[Bilsch]

What about adding your priming solution to the fermenter sometime before the transfer to keg? You could inject through the airlock port just before hooking up your co2 return line from the keg.

 

[Jwin]

What about adding your priming solution to the fermenter sometime before the transfer to keg? You could inject through the airlock port just before hooking up your co2 return line from the keg.

Again, the fact that it is 2 kegs comes into play. Not sure it would get evenly distributed

 

[Edelst0ff]

...

My thought is to use a 20ml syringe to prime the keg but interfacing it is the issue.

...

Anyone else have a solution to this?

Here are professional dosage fittings. Maybe some of them are of inspiration?

http://www.wagnerinox.at/Injektoren-Mischer-Mixer-Carnonator-Carbonisierung-Co2-Dosierung-Co2-Dosiergeraet-Kohlensaeuremischgeraet-Kohlensaeure-Mischgeraet-Kohlensaeureinjektor-SO2-Konnektor-SO-Connector-SO2-Dosier

However, I would consider a Venturi tube in your case

http://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Venturi+injector&isNewKw=1&isRefine=true&mfs=GOCLK&acimp=0&_trksid=p2056088.m2428.l1313.TR2.TRC2.Xventuri+injector&sqp=venturi+injector

They are cheap and are designed for mixing. I use them regularly for aerating wort. I don't see why you cannot use them to inject priming solution inline as you transfer.

Considering how cheap they are and the multitude of applications during the brewing process, a Venturi tube is most likely what you are looking for.

Hope this helps

 

[TexasWine]

I have considered this but that would only take care of one keg and it would still push o2 into the keg as co2 production begins.
I'm thinking removing the post and shooting the solution into the keg with a syringe would probably be the easiest way

It doesn't matter if oxygen is pushed into the keg as CO2 production begins. There is so much CO2 produced that essentially all oxygen will be removed from the receiving keg.

And you can always make a manifold with a tee and a little bit of hose so you can connect the Speidel to both kegs at the same time. This is exactly what I've done, in reverse. My I plan is to ferment in two kegs and transfer to a single serving keg. I built a hose manifold to connect the two gas post of the fermenters to the liquid post of the serving keg.

Another idea. Instead of removing the post, just use a gas disconnect and some hose and siphon the solution in.

But I still think the easiest way is to just pop the lid open and put it in. And it's still keeping things LODO.

 

[Jwin]

Thanks for all the replies.
So, we aren't stressing short term o2 exposure post fermentation?
My worry is, how much damage can/will be done if I am exposing still beer, and it takes X amount of hours for the yeast to scavenge the o2 that was taken up before it begins taking on a strong fermentation from the priming solution.
It just doesn't make sense to me that we are more lax at this point. Post fermentation is where I have always stressed o2 pickup, pre LODO. Now, I am no where near LODO compliant in my brewing process, but I'm slowly implementing some practices as time and budget allows.
I am thinking now to just dose an inline filter and go from there. Something simple like this.
https://m.grainger.com/mobile/product/GRAINGER-APPROVED-50-Mesh-T-Line-Strainer-6UJJ0
Using a filter would, in theory, allow me to skip cold crashing, but keep hops from clogging up the poppet during transfer and avoiding o2 exposure until I can find an accurate way to apply .5-1 psi to the Speidel

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Look over the posts on scavenging mash water with yeast. The yeast work very quickly. If your being careful and still taking steps to minimize O2 they really dont have much to take up and you may never get above the flavor threshold anyways.

 

[Jwin]

Look over the posts on scavenging mash water with yeast. The yeast work very quickly. If your being careful and still taking steps to minimize O2 they really dont have much to take up and you may never get above the flavor threshold anyways.

Thanks
Will do

 

[schematix]

Ever since I kegged my Marzen on Friday and added priming sugar to the keg I've been thinking about this....

Since according to @techbrau this is still 'LoDO', is it really necessary to go through the time intensive steps of gas dip tube shortening, water purging, fermentation gas purging, etc, etc if you always keg prime? (Edit: I am not discounting the necessity of controlling mash oxygen. I am talking specifically about post-fermentation handling here.)

Seems that if this is still allows one to brew LoDO and get the results it might be a more approachable method for many due to the decreased complexity.

 

[Yeastieboy]

http://immaculatebrewery.com/oxygen-and-mashing/

 

[Edelst0ff]

Both Kunze and Narziss mention that too much oxygen even in secondary is to be avoided.

The less the better, even in secondary.

A simple single purge should do.

I shortened my dip tubes about 5 years ago, but wouldn't do it nowadays.

Why?

Too much remaining yeast can become a liability and a full length dip tube can help discharging it.

In the end it's about preference and personal experience. That's why we put the paper out there so that people can feed back into it and help us improve the production of fine lagers at home

 

[TexasWine]

Curious, anyone out there try low DO brewing on a Picobrew Zymatic? I have never seen one of these contraptions in person, but from what I can tell low DO brewing would be impossible with one.

 

[techbrau]

Curious, anyone out there try low DO brewing on a Picobrew Zymatic? I have never seen one of these contraptions in person, but from what I can tell low DO brewing would be impossible with one.

Doubtful. That thing is a HSA machine.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Ever since I kegged my Marzen on Friday and added priming sugar to the keg I've been thinking about this....

Since according to @techbrau this is still 'LoDO', is it really necessary to go through the time intensive steps of liquid dip tube shortening, water purging, fermentation gas purging, etc, etc if you always keg prime? (Edit: I am not discounting the necessity of controlling mash oxygen. I am talking specifically about post-fermentation handling here.)

Seems that if this is still allows one to brew LoDO and get the results it might be a more approachable method for many due to the decreased complexity.

This is where a meter is really needed but my inclination is the majority of it is still helpful. The idea, at least to me, is to get the lowest possible TPO and reduce spikes in exposure as much as possible. By making sure the keg your packaging into has been purged your cutting down on the amount of exposure.

 

[popquizkid]

duplicate post

 

[popquizkid]

Underletting the MLT does not result in any lost efficiency, in and of itself.

You still stir the grain unless you are recirculating. Stirring is needed when no recirculation is implemented; no need to be heavy handed - just move the grain around in the water a bit is good enough. Failure to do one of those things will result in significant loss of sugars. Performing a batch sparge may help alleviate some of that loss, but to no great degree, AND you increase your potential for oxygen pickup. Additionally, traditional batch sparging using single/double sparges is a poor method to utilize for low O2 brewing due to the simple fact that when you drain the grainbed to collect your first runnings you replace the space the water/wort was occupying with _____ (fill in the blank). No sparge is a much better method if your cooler can hold it.

At least, this has been my experience with low O2 brewing. Oh yeah, and targeting a 40-50mg/l NaMeta concentration with no sparge brewing is an ideal place to start unless you're splishy splashy.

Ever since I kegged my Marzen on Friday and added priming sugar to the keg I've been thinking about this....

Since according to @techbrau this is still 'LoDO', is it really necessary to go through the time intensive steps of liquid dip tube shortening, water purging, fermentation gas purging, etc, etc if you always keg prime? (Edit: I am not discounting the necessity of controlling mash oxygen. I am talking specifically about post-fermentation handling here.)

Seems that if this is still allows one to brew LoDO and get the results it might be a more approachable method for many due to the decreased complexity.

Curious - what is the supposed benefit of liquid dip tube shortening?

I have not done LODO as described in PDF on the hot side but on cold side I have been doing CO2 keg purging and closed transfers for a while. It definitely improved the stability of my hop forward beers. I think this is good practice whether you force carb or prime.

 

[schematix]

Curious - what is the supposed benefit of liquid dip tube shortening?

I had a typo in my original post. I meant to say gas post. The benefit of that in a serving keg is to eliminate the air pocket trapped at the top of the keg when you water purge it. In a fermenter it gives you an extra 1/2" of head space, which means more beer into a serving keg!

I'm having buyers remorse about getting new gas tubes that are shorter. They aren't of the same quality as the originals and the f'n poppets don't seat correctly, leading to loss of pressure.

I bent the liquid dip tube in my fermenting kegs so that it picks up from the side (at the corner between the radius-ed part and the straight wall). It leaves about 1L of beer (in addition to yeast/trub) in the keg. I'm going to try to reduce that by half now that i've seen how much it leaves. I think i can get myself another pint per keg easily.


So far my change list for next brew is:

Improve Mash Efficiency (last one was embarrassing)
-Decrease mill gap slightly (down to 0.032" from 0.035)
-Stir gently 1 time after under letting to break up any remaining dough balls.

Process Simplification
-Skip water purging of receiving kegs. Instead only do a single purge with tank CO2, then allow to be purged with fermentation gasses.

Improve batch yield
-Fill fermentation kegs 1/2" past top weld. So far with 2-3 psi of primary fermentation pressure kraussen hasn't exceeded 1cm
-Bend liquid dip tubes back half way between bottle center pick-up and side wall.

Secondary fermentation
-Hopefully be home to catch FG +6 points, if not then do priming sugar again.