Interesting German Brewing PDF

[rabeb25]

You see, there in lies the problem. Very few are. Everyone is looking for a shortcut or work around, or half assing it.. Out of these 54 some pages, I don't recall many if any following the paper to the letter as of yet. I get these thread notifications, and its always someone who says its pointless(99% of time who has never tried it) or that its too hard, or someone looking for a work around. Its a slam to me(us), and these almost god like German brewmasters that are able to turn out these products. It's not easy, and it's not obtainable using home brewing mentality. Its very frustrating for someone who put years of work into this, allowed it out to the public, only for it to be half assed, then results based off that.. Notifications removed, and will let you all be.

 

[beersk]

these people have been receptive and are attempting to attain a true LODO process. they were just saying it's frustrating but they're going to take it in baby steps. your posts have really been giving this thread an uncomfortable vibe

Yeah, good points. That was what I was trying to say. I'm taking it in baby steps. So far it's not been to big of a deal, just don't have it all perfected or anything yet. And I'm a perfectionist, so that's why it's a frustrating process, as learning anything new often is.

@KeyWestBrewing - agree 100%, there has to be merit in preventing oxidation at any level, regardless of whether IT is achieved. At least that's where I stand right now. I preboil, I use the SMB, I siphon strike and sparge water, don't splash, etc. but beyond that, I'm not going too wild with it.

@rabeb25 - Bryan, I know I'm "half assing it" at the moment, but I'm working my way up. The last couple beers I've racked over with extract left, hoping for good results. I'm not out to gain your respect because as we all know, that was gone a long time ago. I'm just saying, I'm not out to offend you or demean your years of work. I fully believe that O2 is a killer, it's just a process for those of us who do believe there's merit to the low DO thing. It's difficult to take such a leap to completely alter our process, that we've learned over years and years of people telling us "this is the way it's done". We have to unlearn it all and relearn how to brew. That's kind of where I'm at now. It's fun but also frustrating.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I came across something of note while reading up on the new Sierra Nevada Oktoberfest (which is outstanding again)...

This is from a guy who works within Sierra Nevada.

He states that SN was wanting to do some mini kegs. However everyone they tested had O2 pickup and iron leaching problems (among other problems), so it was scrapped. He goes on to say that they didn't do stainless growlers because of similar issues with iron leaching from the stainless. It was minimal leaching, but it was measureable and detrimental. He goes into their keg buying process and says that each one is bought new, and are passivated in-house. They have their own "pickling liquer" made of acid and hop beta acids that stays in the keg for 14 days. This passivation prevents the iron leaching. Over enough time, and hoppy beers, the stainless would stop the leach, but they don't want their beer to be the ones filled with iron.

Couple of things about this:

1.) Ive read that you can passivate the 15.5 gal kegs with some barkeepers friend. But what about the smaller corneys....do they come passivated, or do we need to be doing it ourselves? In searching I saw where AEB does passivate, but they are the top of the line kegs. I assume these old soda kegs we've been using, if they were passivated, have lost the passivation over time. I guess this would lead to iron leaching and oxidation via the Fenton Reaction.

2.) Brewtan-B acts as a metal chelating agent and is able to complex iron therefore blocking oxidation via the fenton reaction. But does it do this with iron during the brewing process, or is this something its able to do in the keg as well?



EDIT: That being said, I just purchased two new AMCYL 3 gallon kegs. I cleaned them with some boiling water and oxyclean free. Any reason I should be worried about that doing something to the inside of the keg? Removing passivation?

 

[thedon986]

You see, there in lies the problem. Very few are. Everyone is looking for a shortcut or work around, or half assing it.. Out of these 54 some pages, I don't recall many if any following the paper to the letter as of yet. I get these thread notifications, and its always someone who says its pointless(99% of time who has never tried it) or that its too hard, or someone looking for a work around. Its a slam to me(us), and these almost god like German brewmasters that are able to turn out these products. It's not easy, and it's not obtainable using home brewing mentality. Its very frustrating for someone who put years of work into this, allowed it out to the public, only for it to be half assed, then results based off that.. Notifications removed, and will let you all be.

In 55 pages I have not seen any DO results from finished products, or products using one half of the method or the other (did I miss it?). Since you stopped posting and berating everyone who questions something (while providing no proof just saying "it works"), there has been very interesting and constructive discussion as others are trying out parts of the process and documenting their experience.

I am very curious to see what happens to these "sulfur bombs" and whether they right themselves with time and whether they are significantly better tasting now than when brewed prior to this. Also curious to see the applicability of this process to non-german lagers as those don't seem mind-blowing to me (IMO) in all the ones I've had imported and served at as authentic a place you'll find in the states. Very good beers, but I guess I'm just an admirer of awful beer like everyone else. Relax; have a Bud Light.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

You see, there in lies the problem. Very few are. Everyone is looking for a shortcut or work around, or half assing it.. Out of these 54 some pages, I don't recall many if any following the paper to the letter as of yet. I get these thread notifications, and its always someone who says its pointless(99% of time who has never tried it) or that its too hard, or someone looking for a work around. Its a slam to me(us), and these almost god like German brewmasters that are able to turn out these products. It's not easy, and it's not obtainable using home brewing mentality. Its very frustrating for someone who put years of work into this, allowed it out to the public, only for it to be half assed, then results based off that.. Notifications removed, and will let you all be.

You've got to understand that to implement even some of these things means a total overhaul of some peoples systems. So its to be expected that people would try to find short cuts first instead of scrapping everything and opening up their wallets. Its a bit ironic that the PDF write up is essentially you guys finding short cuts aimed at achieving what is done in world class brewhouses. I wouldn't get so worked up about it, the people that want to try it out will try it out. If people aren't following your direction and saying 'this ruined my beer' then its not really a knock against you.

 

[beersk]

I am very curious to see what happens to these "sulfur bombs" and whether they right themselves with time and whether they are significantly better tasting now than when brewed prior to this. Also curious to see the applicability of this process to non-german lagers as those don't seem mind-blowing to me (IMO) in all the ones I've had imported and served at as authentic a place you'll find in the states. Very good beers, but I guess I'm just an admirer of awful beer like everyone else. Relax; have a Bud Light.

The sulfur in the beer I had a ton of it in is now normal. I don't have it on tap yet, but the last sample I had tasted like it had all dissipated. Thankfully...
But on your point of non-German lagers, I'd expect a low DO process to improve all beers, not just German styles. It may be most noticeable in something like a helles where that rich malt character is warranted. But there's no reason it can't and shouldn't be applied to any and all beer styles. And of course, some adjustment on hops and grain amounts will be necessary, assuming it's true and that malt characters become even more rich and pronounced.
I fully endorse the idea of low DO, just not quite there for the process yet. It's something that takes time. I don't think any of the people who wrote the paper scrapped everything and switched to low DO. They were already on their way there when one of the guys said, "hey, oxygen, yeah, let's get rid of that." They were already doing much of the process, just not necessarily the preboil with SMB.

 

[TexasWine]

Quick update on my Marzen brewed on May 29th. Still extremely cloudy. Still getting more sulphur than I would like. Taste is good if you can ignore the sulphur on the nose.

Preliminary conclusion: I'll continue incorporating parts of the low DO procedure, but I will never spund in the keg again. I'm pouring too many ugly pints.

FWIW, I followed the procedure with the exception of getting the pitching temp down low enough before tossing in the yeast.

 

[p_p]

Hi,
Apologies if this has been asked and answered already, it is taking some time to chew through all the posts (only reached #100!)

First of all, thanks to the OP for sharing your experiments.

I understand the method requires keeping oxygen in check from start to finish.
Would it be there any benefit if one was only able to implement some of the practices but not all?
For example, I can probably boil the brewing liquor and add SMB at different stages in the process, but will struggle to keep O2 out completely during transfers, etc.

Is in this case something-better-than-nothing or is this method an all-or-nothing kind of thing?

Thanks,
pp

 

[beersk]

Hi,
Apologies if this has been asked and answered already, it is taking some time to chew through all the posts (only reached #100!)

First of all, thanks to the OP for sharing your experiments.

I understand the method requires keeping oxygen in check from start to finish.
Would it be there any benefit if one was only able to implement some of the practices but not all?
For example, I can probably boil the brewing liquor and add SMB at different stages in the process, but will struggle to keep O2 out completely during transfers, etc.

Is in this case something-better-than-nothing or is this method an all-or-nothing kind of thing?

Thanks,
pp

Yeah, it's basically an all-or-nothing deal. I'm still clinging to the hope that any little bit helps though. I have to believe at the very least preboiling and SMB has to improve the beer some. But who knows, still working on that.

 

[jdebonth]

Thanks to the authors and everyone who has contributed - fascinating stuff and well worth exploring. I have read the 55 pages of this thread and have noted a few thoughts/questions.

Measuring final DO - how is this done in a repeatable and accurate way with a handheld meter like the Extech (perhaps the better question is whether it is at all possible with a handheld meter)? I assume pouring a sample into a glass and sticking the probe in will provide a reading of the oxygen that was just swirled into the beer during the pour?

Is the consensus that getting the kind of sensitivity and precision required for DO measurements in the range of 0-150 ppb requires something like the Hach HQ40d ($2000)? Has anyone found a more affordable option? There was mention of getting a quality probe and powering and extracting readings via an arduino/raspberry Pi. Any more specific info on this would be interesting.

I am very interested in measuring and monitoring my DO levels (especially in the final product) but will only buy equipment if it will give me meaningful data.

On another note, there was some discussion on the grade/quality of CO2. I have researched this extensively as I have struggled with this in the past. The following CO2 grades are available in Europe and the US and are all considered 'food grade'. Below I have provided ppm levels of o2 in the gas and what the resultant ppb levels of DO would be in the carbonated beer (assuming an added 1 vol of co2 with the respective gas).

gas / region / o2 impurity level / resultant DO level in beer

CO2 3.0 / EU / <200 ppm / <286 ppb
CO2 4.5 / EU / <15 ppm / <21 ppb
CO2 4.8 / EU / <2 ppm / <3 ppb
CO2 (beverage grade) / US / <30 ppm / <43 ppb

(Those ppm levels are the upper spec limits and so actual levels will be lower.)

As you can see these are not meaningless amounts, specially when we are aiming for less than 150 ppb total packaged DO. I have been buying CO2 4.8 here in Europe as it is no more expensive than the lower grades.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Hi,
Apologies if this has been asked and answered already, it is taking some time to chew through all the posts (only reached #100!)

First of all, thanks to the OP for sharing your experiments.

I understand the method requires keeping oxygen in check from start to finish.
Would it be there any benefit if one was only able to implement some of the practices but not all?
For example, I can probably boil the brewing liquor and add SMB at different stages in the process, but will struggle to keep O2 out completely during transfers, etc.

Is in this case something-better-than-nothing or is this method an all-or-nothing kind of thing?

Thanks,
pp

Yeah, it's basically an all-or-nothing deal. I'm still clinging to the hope that any little bit helps though. I have to believe at the very least preboiling and SMB has to improve the beer some. But who knows, still working on that.

I can see the case for both sides. If the reactions happen at a certain point then it may not matter how far you've crossed the line, the damage is done. On the other hand maybe its progressive and the closer you get to ideal the more improvement you see. Breweries are always trying to knock down their TPO so being mindful of the beers DO levels isn't exactly anything new.

 

[TheHairyHop]

the HSA is going to be pretty all or nothing, judging from the reaction rates. some specific stages where you're going to have problems would help

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Was watching a CCB video and in going over their preference for canning Wayne Wambles drops some interesting info on DO ingress of bottled beers. Its from about 26:00-28:30 for those interested... [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFYnGz-2KO0[/ame]

Cool tidbit - the man doing lab work in one of the scenes is now the head brewer at a local brewery.

 

[beersk]

I can see the case for both sides. If the reactions happen at a certain point then it may not matter how far you've crossed the line, the damage is done. On the other hand maybe its progressive and the closer you get to ideal the more improvement you see. Breweries are always trying to knock down their TPO so being mindful of the beers DO levels isn't exactly anything new.

This is what I'm thinking/hoping for; any little bit to prevent O2 ingress helps, I can only imagine. But hey, it might all be bogus, who knows. Doesn't hurt to try.

 

[wobdee]

Every little bit helps imo

 

[Magnus314]

Seems like HSA is way worse than cold side. I have some results from trying this, and I'll report back when I can.

 

[jdebonth]

Is the consensus that getting the kind of sensitivity and precision required for DO measurements in the range of 0-150 ppb requires something like the Hach HQ40d ($2000)? Has anyone found a more affordable option? There was mention of getting a quality probe and powering and extracting readings via an arduino/raspberry Pi. Any more specific info on this would be interesting.

What I have found is this:

http://atlas-scientific.com/product_pages/kits/do_kit.html

The Atlas Scientific™ EZO™ class embedded D.O. circuit, is our 6th generation embedded dissolved oxygen circuit. This EZO class D.O. circuit, offers the highest level of stability and accuracy. With proper configuration the EZO class D.O. circuit, can meet, or exceed the accuracy and precision found in most bench top laboratory grade dissolved oxygen meters. The EZO™ D.O. circuit, can work with any off-the-shelf galvanic HDPE dissolved oxygen probe/sensor/electrode.

This can be controlled pretty easily by a raspberry pi and there are plenty of how-to guides, wiring and code samples available.

They also sell a DO probe with the following specs:

http://atlas-scientific.com/_files/_datasheets/_probe/DO_probe.pdf

Full range dissolved oxygen readings from 0.01 to +35.99 mg/L
Accurate dissolved oxygen readings down to the hundredths place (+/- 0.2)
Temperature compensation

Looks like this is slightly more precise than the Extech (+/- 0.2 vs 0.4 ppm) but still not sufficient for our needs. I wonder if a Hamilton VisiTrace DO 120 or equivalent (less expensive) probe could be used with this circuit.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I'm starting to implement some steps in LODO process. I brewed an IPA last night (90% 2-row, 5% munich, 5% c-60, simcoe for bittering, Amarillo and citra for flamout/whirlpool, dryhop).

I did the yeast and dextrose trick (1.6 g/gal yeast & 0.8 g/gal dextrose in strike) for 30 minutes then hit it with 50 mg/L of SMB. I also added Brewtan B before mashing in (also at flameout) and used 2% water w/ SMB to condition my grain.

The mash really didn't have a smell. It was weird. I basically had stick my nose in the mash to smell anything. The sample I take at 15 min into mash for pH seemed really light also.

Everything seemed to drop really quickly. I assume this is from the brewtan. This is only my second time using it.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Interested to hear your results. So far I have 2 beers on tap implementing the mash procedures. Both are really good but are on par for what I'm used to with my hoppy beers. I still have some more malt forward styles to keg that I did this on. I'm thinking they'll be better examples for this.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Interested to hear your results. So far I have 2 beers on tap implementing the mash procedures. Both are really good but are on par for what I'm used to with my hoppy beers. I still have some more malt forward styles to keg that I did this on. I'm thinking they'll be better examples for this.

I used wyeast nutrient which contains zinc. The german pdf says this is a no-no, but considering brewtan is a metal chelator, I added it anyway, hoping the brewtan would do its job, while adding the other components of the nutrient.

I wonder if using brewtan would allow people to continue to use their copper chillers? I have a stainless, so I'm not worried about that portion, but it would save others money.

I mentioned earlier about stainless steel and the passivation layer which protects iron leaching from stainless. It seems as though brewtan would be beneficial for everyone in this sense. I know how passivation works somewhat, but given that there's no way to measure whether your equipment (kegs, bk, mt, ss spoons, etc.) maintains passivation, it makes sense to use it to chelate metals during the whole process. This would solve oxidation, or possible oxidation, that route....Still gotta handle the other stuff though.

Ill be trying a brown ale shortly for fall.

 

[techbrau]

Unfortunately there are multiple pathways to oxidation. Fenton processes are just one of them, so getting rid of all the metals which can participate in them is literally only cutting one head off of the hydra.

It's still a good idea to chelate as many metals as you can, but it's not enough by itself. Enzymes that are naturally occurring in the malt like peroxidase, lipoxygenase, and polyphenol oxidase will rapidly catalyze the oxidation of malt lipids and phenolics if given a source of free oxygen (such as dissolved oxygen), and targeting them surgically is very difficult because you can't rely on temperature to denature them without also destroying the amylases.

There's no magic weight loss pill here - diet and exercise is the only way to get real results. Lodo methods are the brewing equivalent of diet and exercise

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Unfortunately there are multiple pathways to oxidation. Fenton processes are just one of them, so getting rid of all the metals which can participate in them is literally only cutting one head off of the hydra.

It's still a good idea to chelate as many metals as you can, but it's not enough by itself.

That's what I meant by "the other stuff".

What's your opinion on iron leaching from stainless, given my earlier post about Sierra Nevada testing for it?

 

[techbrau]

There are many flavors of stainless and some are much better than others. 316 is the best for food applications with 304 as the second. Unfortunately with a lot of stainless equipment made overseas nowadays you don't always know what you're getting. Regardless of the alloy, you don't always know how well it was passivated, either.

I use the new AEB kegs and I haven't ever seen them form so much as a blemish so I'd believe that the passivation is top notch. If you notice your equipment discoloring it is a cause for concern. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, Bar keepers friend is an oxalic acid based cleaner and is one of the best ways to passivate stainless. Citric acid is another great option for passivation and will remove iron oxide that has already formed on the surface.

At the end of the day, there is no perfect material. Well maintained high quality stainless steel is the best we have when it comes to brewing.

 

[frankhillersr]

What is your opinion of plate chillers? The ones I have looked at are all "Copper brazed Stainless Steel."

 

[brewmeister13]

What's your opinion on iron leaching from stainless, given my earlier post about Sierra Nevada testing for it?

If you are interested in testing your passivation, you could look into this: https://www.theruststore.com/CitriSurf-Copper-Sulfate-Passivation-Test-Kit-P220.aspx?gclid=CI2kkODwps4CFY-Bfgod7tEHYA. Might be a bit tough to use on the inside of a keg, but I bet it's doable.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Unfortunately there are multiple pathways to oxidation. Fenton processes are just one of them, so getting rid of all the metals which can participate in them is literally only cutting one head off of the hydra.

It's still a good idea to chelate as many metals as you can, but it's not enough by itself. Enzymes that are naturally occurring in the malt like peroxidase, lipoxygenase, and polyphenol oxidase will rapidly catalyze the oxidation of malt lipids and phenolics if given a source of free oxygen (such as dissolved oxygen), and targeting them surgically is very difficult because you can't rely on temperature to denature them without also destroying the amylases.

There's no magic weight loss pill here - diet and exercise is the only way to get real results. Lodo methods are the brewing equivalent of diet and exercise

Is reduced hop aroma during fermentation normal? The IPA I just did (with some aspects of LODO), has a muted hop aroma in the fermenter. usually when I open it up and stick my head in, my breath is taken away because of the CO2 first, but then there's a good bit of hopiness in the air.

If you are interested in testing your passivation, you could look into this: https://www.theruststore.com/CitriSurf-Copper-Sulfate-Passivation-Test-Kit-P220.aspx?gclid=CI2kkODwps4CFY-Bfgod7tEHYA. Might be a bit tough to use on the inside of a keg, but I bet it's doable.

Cool, thanks! Didn't even know that was an option.

 

[Joe Dragon]

My LoDO Hefe was recently judged. It was a bit under carbonated and was bottled with a beer gun.

There are a couple of interesting comments concerning the sweet malt, delicate brew and unfortunate DMS.

33 average score and it didn't place


Experienced Judge:

Aroma- Medium banana ester, low clove phenols- no hop aroma, no DMS or diacetyl. 8/12

Appearance- Golden straw color w/slight haze. Medium low white head- good retention. Low alcohol legs. 2/3

Flavor- Med-low banana & clove flavors. Low hop bitterness- carbonation level is low, not to style. No alcohol warmth- finishes dry. 13/20

Mouthfeel- Proper body for style- low carbonation, no astringency- no alcohol warmth, non cloying. 4/5

Overall Impression- Carbonation level affects this style more than others- it should be higher w/a large white head- otherwise this is a decent beer- try fermenting a few degrees warmer. This will bump up the esters and phenols- plus it was fairly clear. You want to leave some yeast in the bottle. This is like a crystal Weisse. 7/10

34/50

Certified Judge:

Aroma- Medium banana and light strawberry esters. Moderate cooked corn up front that dissipates quickly. Sweet bready malt. No hop aroma, Light black pepper phenols. 7/12

Appearance- Bright gold with good clarity. Very low head of tight white bubbles that fades quickly. 2/3

Flavor- Clean bready, sweet malt is low. No hop flavor with just enough bitterness to balance. Light peppery phenols with moderate strawberry-banana esters. Semi dry finish. Light (no idea) character at end. 13/20

Mouthfeel- Light bodied, a little watery. light carbonation and light creaminess. No warmth or astringency. Missing the fluffy carbonation and protein. 3/5

Overall Impression- Good job here. The delicate nature of this brew is enjoyable. Could use more carbonation to liven it up. Watch out for DMS- was low, but detectable. Be sure to do a full rigorous boil. 32/50

 

[Magnus314]

Anyone have results to report from using the yeast/dextrose de-oxygenating method?

Would make this hella simpler...

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Anyone have results to report from using the yeast/dextrose de-oxygenating method?

Would make this hella simpler...

Didn't you say you had results to post a few days ago Are you looking for info from someone that did DO readings or just someone that tried the process? If the latter, Im not getting any discernible difference in malt character however after a few weeks on tap they still taste as fresh as the first pint.

 

[schematix]

My first LoDO (the helles) is 4 weeks and a day old. The sulfur is pretty much all gone now.

This beer has a very unique sweetness to it that I've never had before. Probably since I'm not used to it, it's kind of cloying.

Only flaw i've noted is that carbonation is just a hair low (2 vols by my calcs). My spunding valves had a slow leak and the beer quit a few points above what my FFT indicated. The last little bit will have to be force carbed as i put the kegs on tap.

Looking forward to doing another LoDO in a few weeks.