Infection/off flavor

[Joedirt70]

Hello everyone!

I'm new here as well as too homebrewing. I've been brewing for a little over a year and I've noticed some recurring infections/off flavors that keep happening to me and I don't know what's causing it. The first time I experienced this issue was when I tried to make some cider, It had this gross soapy taste; my roommate said vinegar tasting. I've also lost roughly 50% of my homebrew batches and it's starting to piss me off and waste my money. When it happens to my beer it also tastes like cider (I don't know if that's because the first time it happened to me was in cider or not) I always sanitize before every use, I keep my gear clean and sanitized at all times. I don't however pbw my fermentor after every use, I normally use soap which I rinse out well, is this normal? I've had it happen in about 5 different fermenting buckets as well as my ssbrewtech chronical. I'm running out of ideas. I've tried using filtered/distilled water instead of my tap water as well with no change. I don't think it's anything before fermentation as its happened on both my brewing setups (different equipment). My guess would be between getting the yeast out of the fridge, to sampling the wort.

My normal process is
-pour the wort into the fermentor (I do it kind of rigorously to aerate it so I let it splash on the side of the fermentor)
- cool the wort ( I normally get it close to the pitching temperature sometimes it might be alittle high, no higher than 83 degrees but normally drops within range within an hour.)
-Sanitize the scissors for a few seconds
-cut the yeast packet open
-drop straight into the wort
-close, seal and put the airlock on and wait.


My next few batches I'm going to be strict about waiting until it's within the proper pitch temperature however, I didn't think the slight higher temperature over a short term would cause this. The last thing I can think of is sometimes I don't bring the yeast to room temp, straight from the fridge to the fermenter. Any ideas or recommendations would be great.

Thanks

 

[seatazzz]

One thing I would recommend, if you're using dry yeast, ALWAYS REHYDRATE, don't just sprinkle it over the top of your wort. Rehydrating 30 minutes before pitching gives your yeast a kick start on waking up and starting to work.

And +1 to getting your wort to proper pitching temperature. Pitching yeast onto hot wort will kill off a lot of them, leaving the rest with too much work to do and they will get stressed. This creates some nasty off-flavors that won't ever go away. You don't have to get it down to the low 60s, but about 72 will be fine. Most ale yeast have a temperature range of 55-70, and little bit higher than that won't hurt them (although it may create some banana/clove-y esters), but keep it under 80.

 

[ncbrewer]

This article https://www.morebeer.com/articles/homebrew-off-flavors states: "Using too much corn or cane sugar is the most common cause for wine or cidery flavors. Generally, 1lb of sugar per 5 gallon batch is considered the limit before cidery flavors start developing. Acetaldehyde can also give off a cider-like quality."

I can't say from experience.

 

[iR Polly]

Hello everyone!

I'm new here as well as too homebrewing. I've been brewing for a little over a year and I've noticed some recurring infections/off flavors that keep happening to me and I don't know what's causing it. The first time I experienced this issue was when I tried to make some cider, It had this gross soapy taste; my roommate said vinegar tasting. I've also lost roughly 50% of my homebrew batches and it's starting to piss me off and waste my money. When it happens to my beer it also tastes like cider (I don't know if that's because the first time it happened to me was in cider or not) I always sanitize before every use, I keep my gear clean and sanitized at all times. I don't however pbw my fermentor after every use, I normally use soap which I rinse out well, is this normal? I've had it happen in about 5 different fermenting buckets as well as my ssbrewtech chronical. I'm running out of ideas. I've tried using filtered/distilled water instead of my tap water as well with no change. I don't think it's anything before fermentation as its happened on both my brewing setups (different equipment). My guess would be between getting the yeast out of the fridge, to sampling the wort.

My normal process is
-pour the wort into the fermentor (I do it kind of rigorously to aerate it so I let it splash on the side of the fermentor)
- cool the wort ( I normally get it close to the pitching temperature sometimes it might be alittle high, no higher than 83 degrees but normally drops within range within an hour.)
-Sanitize the scissors for a few seconds
-cut the yeast packet open
-drop straight into the wort
-close, seal and put the airlock on and wait.


My next few batches I'm going to be strict about waiting until it's within the proper pitch temperature however, I didn't think the slight higher temperature over a short term would cause this. The last thing I can think of is sometimes I don't bring the yeast to room temp, straight from the fridge to the fermenter. Any ideas or recommendations would be great.

Thanks

Might want to check the valve on your fermenter remove it and look for buildup

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I always sanitize before every use, I keep my gear clean and sanitized at all times. I don't however pbw my fermentor after every use, I normally use soap which I rinse out well, is this normal? ...

-pour the wort into the fermentor (I do it kind of rigorously to aerate it so I let it splash on the side of the fermentor)
- cool the wort ( I normally get it close to the pitching temperature sometimes it might be alittle high, no higher than 83 degrees but normally drops within range within an hour.)
-Sanitize the scissors for a few seconds
-cut the yeast packet open

Few comments -

So are you sanitising your fermenter or not? It seems not, and you're wondering about infection?
Cool then aerate, don't aerate then chill
What are you sanitising the scissors in? It may need more than a few seconds
Sanitise the pack of yeast before cutting it

The way to look at sanitising is that it's an insurance policy - you can get away with not sanitising quite a bit, but if you're apparently having problems with infection then just be paranoid, sanitise everything that comes near your wort - like your yeast packet, like your hands, everything....

 

[BrewInspector]

Doesn't necessarily sound like infection but rather one or more of the common off flavors found in homebrew due to various causes.

Read about those common off flavors and see if any of yours fit the profile. Then learn the causes and how to prevent them.

Sanitation, proper temps, good recipes, proper yeast for style, sufficient amount of yeast, proper packaging and storage.
These and many other things alter the flavors of your product.

It could be the yeast you are using. Each has its own flavors and depends on fermentation conditions.

The taste will change over time as well. Some of those flavors will dissipate as the beer conditions. Others will not.

 

[Joedirt70]

Few comments -

So are you sanitising your fermenter or not? It seems not, and you're wondering about infection?
Cool then aerate, don't aerate then chill
What are you sanitising the scissors in? It may need more than a few seconds
Sanitise the pack of yeast before cutting it

The way to look at sanitising is that it's an insurance policy - you can get away with not sanitising quite a bit, but if you're apparently having problems with infection then just be paranoid, sanitise everything that comes near your wort - like your yeast packet, like your hands, everything....

I'm sanitizing everything, using starsan. I clean out my fermenters after every use and sanitize before I go to use it. I normally use soap and after 3 uses or if I get a bad batch I use pbw to clean it. I do chill the wort before I aerate it, I also make sure to boil my immersion chiller for 15 minutes just to be safe.

 

[Joedirt70]

Might want to check the valve on your fermenter remove it and look for buildup

Unfortunately I originally thought it could be this so I took it apart and cleaned but that doesn't explain why I have it happen in my other 4 fermenters.

 

[Joedirt70]

Doesn't necessarily sound like infection but rather one or more of the common off flavors found in homebrew due to various causes.

Read about those common off flavors and see if any of yours fit the profile. Then learn the causes and how to prevent them.

Sanitation, proper temps, good recipes, proper yeast for style, sufficient amount of yeast, proper packaging and storage.
These and many other things alter the flavors of your product.

It could be the yeast you are using. Each has its own flavors and depends on fermentation conditions.

The taste will change over time as well. Some of those flavors will dissipate as the beer conditions. Others will not.

I'm guessing it's more of an off flavor rather than infection. I've read the list of off flavors and nothing is really standing out to me, other than temperature and over crushed grains. My last batch I know for sure was within the pitch temp and had a strady temp the entire fermentation. Here next month I'm going to brew again and keep a log on exactly what I do. Next time it happens I'm going to keep a batch and have others sample it, maybe they can pin point the flavor.

 

[HopHeavy]

I'm sanitizing everything, using starsan. I clean out my fermenters after every use and sanitize before I go to use it. I normally use soap and after 3 uses or if I get a bad batch I use pbw to clean it. I do chill the wort before I aerate it, I also make sure to boil my immersion chiller for 15 minutes just to be safe.

Soap stands out to me... While it may not cause an off flavor, it can result in head deadening/retention issues. I also refrain from using PBW often, but I clean with Oxyclean Free, the one with the green lid in most of the big stores...

As for flavors, I think you already have a list to work on. But might you want to angle on chilling BEFORE you drop into your fermenter. Plastic buckets might leach something into the hot wort. Also want to minimize oxidation until you are closer to pitching temps. I don't think your off-flavors are caused by chlorophenols, but what is the source of your water? Do you treat with campden?

 

[Joedirt70]

Soap stands out to me... While it may not cause an off flavor, it can result in head deadening/retention issues. I also refrain from using PBW often, but I clean with Oxyclean Free, the one with the green lid in most of the big stores...

As for flavors, I think you already have a list to work on. But might you want to angle on chilling BEFORE you drop into your fermenter. Plastic buckets might leach something into the hot wort. Also want to minimize oxidation until you are closer to pitching temps. I don't think your off-flavors are caused by chlorophenols, but what is the source of your water? Do you treat with campden?

Yes, I've realized some items I'm going to work on and be more mindful when brewing. I do cool the wort before I put it in the fermenter. I haven't treated nor filtered my tap water, I used bottled filtered water when doing my cider as well as one of my beer brewing which both had the off flavors. Even though i should treat my water, I don't think what I'm tasting is from the water. Once I figure out the cause of this off flavor and get my carbination down, I'm going to focus on water. I actually was just looking at purchasing a water filter yesterday but held off to use the money else where.

For cleaning do you use oxyclean everytime? How do you prepare it? Really the only reason why I don't use pbw every time is because it's expensive stuff and don't see a need. If my issues are from using dish soap I'm open to different methods.

 

[bucketnative]

Words are only worth so much. Do you have a homebrew club or an experienced/knowledgeable homebrew shop to which you could bring some samples and get feedback?

 

[Joedirt70]

Words are only worth so much. Do you have a homebrew club or an experienced/knowledgeable homebrew shop to which you could bring some samples and get feedback?

Yes, next time it happens I'll make sure 5o take a sample to the local supply shop and see what they say about it.

 

[Setsumi]

Soap, clean with something else, hot water goes a long way.
Cider, check amount of simple sugars BUT time also help if it taste like apples.
Vinegar, check fruit flies.

 

[ncbrewer]

I actually was just looking at purchasing a water filter yesterday but held off to use the money else where.

If you're using chlorinated tap water, try treating it with campden tablets. Whether the chlorine is the particular problem you're looking at or not, this is something you should do anyway. One tablet is said to treat 20 gallons - I use it at a rate of a tablet to 10 gallons in case I'm getting a heavy shot of chlorine at any time.

 

[HopHeavy]

For cleaning do you use oxyclean everytime? How do you prepare it? Really the only reason why I don't use pbw every time is because it's expensive stuff and don't see a need. If my issues are from using dish soap I'm open to different methods.

Yes, I always use Oxyclean. Probably 1/4 the price of PBW. A little bit more of a pain to rinse. I eyeball about a teaspoon per gallon for soaking almost anything. A little more, or less, depending on soil conditions.

For any brewing article...

Rinse off with warm water.
Soak in hot Oxyclean Free. Half hour, give or take, should dissolve the stuff that refused to rinse off.
Rinse in HOTTER water.
Airdry.
Store.
Sanitize immediately before use.

You can use cold Oxyclean solution to passively soak/delable bottles, glasses, etc.

 

[HopHeavy]

If you're using chlorinated tap water, try treating it with campden tablets. Whether the chlorine is the particular problem you're looking at or not, this is something you should do anyway. One tablet is said to treat 20 gallons - I use it at a rate of a tablet to 10 gallons in case I'm getting a heavy shot of chlorine at any time.

@ncbrewer offers sage advice. While it is only touching the tip of water treatment, it is an indispensable step for me. NYC water supposedly doesn't use chloromines, but I use campden religiously.

 

[seatazzz]

+1 to the above. Campden tablets are THE cheapest ingredient in any brew, and usually the most important. Even if your local water authority swears on his mother's bible that the water is clean and free of any nasties, 2 campden tablets are your best insurance. I got mine for about 1.75 for 50 tablets and I use two per batch...overkill, maybe? But they WORK.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Sometimes I don't bring the yeast to room temp, straight from the fridge to the fermenter.

This is a huuuge no no. Way too much thermal shock. Always bring the yeast up to pitching temp, slowly. Set the packet on the counter before you start brewing so it warms up on it's own.

 

[cloudybrewer]

I had very similar problems. Multiple bad beers with different equipment. Beers tasted bad to tolerable after fermentation, and I would get the cidery flavor after a while in bottles. My fermentations were always sluggish.

What I learned is that bacteria can still affect your beer even with good sanitation. We can't create a sterile environment, only a sanitary environment. So if your yeast are sick or dying from abuse (too old, thermal shock, poor temperature control, etc) they won't perform properly, and that opens the door for the few rogue bacteria or fungal cells that slip through to affect your beer. It might not result in an easily detectable infection, but the flavor can be negatively impacted.

Pay good attention to the temp of the yeast at pitching, temp of the wort at pitching, and things you can do to help them out. Rehydrating, yeast nutrient, getting the wort cooled all the way to fermentation temp before pitching, and proper temp control of fermentation. Rehydrating and using nutrient aren't mandatory, as evidenced by the number of Brewer's who don't do it and make great beer, but they sure helped me.

I suspect that a healthy, vigorous fermentation will help you a lot.