infected bucket a complete loss?

[wyzazz]

I am aware of this and am just using one step until my supply is gone. However, I don't think this is the problem because the FDA used to consider it a sanitizer and was used for many many years in brewing. If someone has an experience that they know that one step failed after they followed the directions properly, I would certainly re-evaluate my opinion.

I'm just sayin... ...I use StarSan...

 

[jdp]

I get it, and I am going to switch once the jar disappears. I just don't believe this is the problem. I brewed well over 100 gallons from april until december with no problems at all. I am by no means the only one that has used it successfully either.

That being said, I do know that there are better products out there and when I place my next order, a better sanitizer will be on that list.


BTW, there is only enough to mix another 5 gallons. I know its pretty wastefull, but I mix a full buckets worth each time I use it to be sure everything gets the alloted contact time. That is actually one of the biggest reasons for the switch. It seems to me that a good thick foam will coat bucket walls and lids without using 5-6 gallons each time.

 

[impatient]

100 gallons?
Do you have a commercial liscense?

Dont be a dumb a s s

 

[jdp]

100 gallons?
Do you have a commercial liscense?

Dont be a dumb a s s

There are two legal age drinking adults in my household. That allows me 200 gallons doesn't it?


he called me dumb

-=Edit, again=-
This has been been bugging me since I read the post and I struggled a little with how to handle it. That being said, leaving it alone just didn't sit right.

Calling somebody dumb is a very big peeve of mine. The other one is being wrongly accused of something. You managed to do both in less than 15 words. I realize you have no way of knowing what may be someones hot buttons without getting to know them, but there are things you can do before you make such an ignorant statement.

The first would be to check their state laws. You can see right under my join date that I live in CA. If you checked, you would know that there is a possibility that I might be able to make more than 100 gallons per year. (california state statute § 23356.2)

As far as calling someone a dumb a s s, all I can say is when you do, at least try to spell better than a 12 year old. Not that I care all that much. Sometimes I see that I make mistakes in posts and don't bother to change them because I don't think it's that important...But I don't call people stupid either.

 

[jeffmeh]

It's in just about every book written by professionals, and I only used
one bucket, and it got infected. But the scratches
myth has been around for eons. Scratches are macroscopic, there is no
reason a sanitizer like bleach wouldn't penetrate into a scratch.
Jim

With all due respect, thousands of brewers ferment in buckets and have no problems with infections. Stating that a bucket cannot be sanitized and that the solution is a glass carboy is unfounded. And "It's in just about every book..." does not constitute citing a credible source.

 

[wyzazz]

I don't think that glass is the answer, I ferment in plastic and SS both with no issues. I only own 1 glass carboy. However, if I had an infected batch that fermented in a plastic vessel I'd just trash it and replace the plastic vessel. It's soooo cheap to replace it that I wouldn't chance it.

If you've got a Wal-Mart close, head on down to the Camping/Sporting Goods section and pick up an Aqua-Tainer. I drill out the small vent in the back for a blow-off tube/airlock and use them for "no chill" and regular batches with no issues. The best part is they are only $10.88 before tax!

 

[nealf]

the latest batch didn't smell like death like the first one, but has the same chloraseptic type taste. Thats bacterial if I have my facts straight.

I was at a BJCP Beer Off-Flavor tasting last night and we went over this off flavor you are describing. This is from the BJCP website and it seems to say that it is either water or bleach sanitizer. If you are dead set against getting rid of your bucket next time you can crush up a campden tablet and put it in your water to clear out the possible chlorine/chloramine. If the off flavor still exists I would try a different sanitizer.

Don't focus too much on the last part of the solution, they generally put "Check for infection" on every off flavor solution.


Problem:
Medicinal (chlorophenolic)
Chloroseptic, medicine cabinet

Solution:
Avoid water with chlorine or chloramines (use RO water if necessary). Avoid bleach sanitizers. Reduce astringency/grain husk sources. Avoid excessive whole hop use. Check for infection.

 

[jdc2]

With all due respect, thousands of brewers ferment in buckets and have no problems with infections. Stating that a bucket cannot be sanitized and that the solution is a glass carboy is unfounded. And "It's in just about every book..." does not constitute citing a credible source.

Well, when I get a chance I'll look through all my brewing books and
post the quotes. All I can tell you is I brewed about 8 batches in a bucket,
it developed an acetic acid smell which could not be removed, and the
beers made in it weren't very good. When I switched to glass I had
no problem or any problem since. I'm sure a bucket can be used
for quite a while if you are careful, but eventually it will go.
Jim

 

[jdc2]

The acetic smell in my bucket was probably due to the fact that
HDPE is permeable to gases and other small molecules like acetic
acid. I doubt that it's actually permeable to microorganisms, but
this permeability is used by companies like Ciba-Geigy to engineer
plastics which contain anti-microbials, and these substances permeate
OUT of the plastic to sanitize the surface. The scratches causing
infection idea by itself never made sense to me, since the scratches
are macroscopic and any molecule of sodium hypochlorite can
get in there. But Dave Miller's book on homebrewing has an
explanation of why scratches cause a problem that makes sense:

Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide (1995)
"No matter how gentle and careful you are, plastic
will get scratched as you clean it, and scratches
are a perfect lodging place for sludge, which
in turn will become a home for microbes." p164

So that makes more sense. The yeast sludge gets in a tiny
scratch, it can't be removed just by scrubbing, and the
mass of sludge in the scratch is a home for bacteria.
Jim

 

[BioBeing]

The acetic smell in my bucket was probably due to the fact that
HDPE is permeable to gases and other small molecules like acetic
acid. I doubt that it's actually permeable to microorganisms, but
this permeability is used by companies like Ciba-Geigy to engineer
plastics which contain anti-microbials, and these substances permeate
OUT of the plastic to sanitize the surface.

Triclosan (trade name Microban; the antibacterial (antibiotic really) in question) is incorporated into the plastic during manufacturing. If it does diffuse out, then the antibacterial properties of the plastic would be lost very quickly.

[soap box]On another note: triclosan targets the same enzyme as isoniazid, the main anti-tuberculosis drug. Too much swilling around and we are going to see a rise in resistant strains of TB.

Further: there is no evidence that triclosan-impregnated plastic actually make us any healthier. In fact, companies are not allowed to even make this claim. [/soap box]

The scratches causing
infection idea by itself never made sense to me, since the scratches
are macroscopic and any molecule of sodium hypochlorite can
get in there. But Dave Miller's book on homebrewing has an
explanation of why scratches cause a problem that makes sense:

Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide (1995)
"No matter how gentle and careful you are, plastic
will get scratched as you clean it, and scratches
are a perfect lodging place for sludge, which
in turn will become a home for microbes." p164

So that makes more sense. The yeast sludge gets in a tiny
scratch, it can't be removed just by scrubbing, and the
mass of sludge in the scratch is a home for bacteria.
Jim

That does make sense. So strictly speaking it is the inability of the cleaner (like oxyclean) to remove the organic matter in the first place rather than the in ability of the sanitizer to sanitize (as things should be clean and free of organic matter before you sanitize).

However, I maintain that a well looked after bucket is still a good place to ferment if that is what you want to do (and I do ). YMMV.

 

[springer]

One more thing I thought of while I was at work today. There are no real visible scratches, but a years worth of scrubbing with the coarse side of a sponge has given the inside of the bucket a matte like finish. These very fine scratches are what I had assumed would hold bacteria where sanitizer could not reach, is this correct? or should I just be worried about thick gouges?

FWIW, I think I am going to give a good bleach soak and try it one more time while really evaluating my sanitation. I believe I have been doing everything by the book, bordering on being anal, but there may be something I am missing.

Umm coarse side as in green scubby side? I have used a bucket for several years while its tinged a little its still shinny inside. Oxyclean soak and a soft wash cloth or my hand on stuck on matter has been the only thing used to clean it.

 

[jdc2]

Triclosan (trade name Microban; the antibacterial (antibiotic really) in question) is incorporated into the plastic during manufacturing. If it does diffuse out, then the antibacterial properties of the plastic would be lost very quickly.

No, not what I meant. I was talking about the kind of thing on this
pdf page
http://www.ciba.com/iwcspresent.pdf
on page 8 where it says
"organic systems are generally small molecules
that are incompatible with the matrix and diffuse
to the surface, where they interact with the
organisms."

I assume there is enough in the plastic to last a while, if not
forever.

Jim

 

[BioBeing]

No, not what I meant. I was talking about the kind of thing on this
pdf page
http://www.ciba.com/iwcspresent.pdf
on page 8 where it says
"organic systems are generally small molecules
that are incompatible with the matrix and diffuse
to the surface, where they interact with the
organisms."

I assume there is enough in the plastic to last a while, if not
forever.

Jim

Yeah - that is the same thing. Triclosan (microban) is the compound that is currently used, although Ciba may be working on others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triclosan

But if the molecules diffuses to the surface (and from there out into the agar plates or whatever they are touching) (which they must do to get a zone of inhibition) then there can only be so much compound within the plastic. I guess the half life would depend on the thickness of the plastic and the media it was in contact with?


Obviously, we are well off topic from the bucket/carboy question now

 

[jdc2]

But if the molecules diffuses to the surface (and from there out into the agar plates or whatever they are touching) (which they must do to get a zone of inhibition) then there can only be so much compound within the plastic. I guess the half life would depend on the thickness of the plastic and the media it was in contact with?

I suppose if it sits on the surface, it can diffuse back, then you would
have an equilibrium, so its solubility in the medium in contact with
the plastic would have something to do with it. Etc Etc. Earlier you
didn't seem to believe that it would diffuse out at all.

My only point in bringing it up was to demonstrate that HDPE is
permeable. Some other poster wanted more than just my word for
these things that we're discussing.
Jim

 

[BioBeing]

Whatever...

Food safe plastic can be cleaned. It is safe to brew in.

If you prefer glass, then go with it.

 

[jdp]

There is tons of good input in this thread, and the vast majority has been noted and will be implemented into my brew day routines. Unfortunately I believe the problem was much more remedial than I expected...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ok...-look-my-sanitation-what-not-do-story-159542/

It's late, and I cant type on this laptop any more so I am done for the night.:cross:

 

[wondercow]

There seems to be a lot of debate in here about whether a bucket is salvageable or not. I want to throw in my 2 cents, and my qualification to speak up is that I fought a chronic infection issue for many batches--3 of them (I think) even turned into bottle bombs, which is a miserable experience and I wouldn't wish it on my enemies.

Just because you have soaked something with StarSan or OneStep or your other preferred cleaner does not mean your beer can't get infected. Part of my sanitation process before bottling was to soak everything in StarSan or OneStep for about an hour prior to bottling, but I kept getting bottle bombs.

The problem turned out to be my bottling bucket's spigot. Nobody ever told me I could disassemble the spigot! After close inspection, I noticed that inside the interface between the spigot pieces was a layer of black mold goo. This is a spigot that had been in StarSan--I had assumed that anything the StarSan can touch, the beer can touch, but apparently that assumption was false. I bought a new spigot (and properly clean my new one now) and infection problems have gone away.

So, my experience is only anecdotal evidence, but I will vouch that just because you are using sanitizer doesn't mean that your plastic can't infect your beer. Buy a new bucket. They cost what? $20? A new spigot is only about $1. Save yourself the trouble and the risk of bottle bombs and just get a new one. That way, you know for sure that the infection is gone.

 

[impatient]

You still talkn bout this crap

 

[jdp]

cool, I found the ignore button. I didn't know there was such a thing.