Indoor BIAB

[Gavin C]

I've still yet to try any melanoiden. You like its effects over just going more Munich?

I'm truly too inexperienced to be able to answer that. Chopping and changing from style to style.

For the Vienna mash I debated doing a decoction, eventually deciding against it so added the 2oz of Melanoiden to the grist instead. I suppose one could argue that in such small amounts the difference may not be detectable in any event. I've used it in these small amounts as a mock-coction in this and my Helles.

This is the mash profile I used for the Vienna. Too thick owing to the needed infusion to mash-out. I have a different plan for next time and may omit the Melanoiden.

Vienna Mash Profile (Needs work)


I left the Melanoiden out of the Dunkel I brewed 2 weeks ago using a single decoction. Impossible to compare the two I guess. Such different beers.

 

[Gavin C]

Munich Dunkel Decoction Mash profile seems to have worked out well.

From a numbers point-of-view (the step's timing and temperatures), everything is in-line with the style guidelines. OG and FG were as planned and the estimated ABV% is appropriate to the style.

A few weeks yet, before a taste is in order but will be kegging it tomorrow at 15 days since pitching the yeast. I'll wait for a few weeks of lagering to see if the recipe is a hit or miss.

Mash Profile Munich Dunkel

Munich Dunkel OG and FG

 

[Gavin C]

Gavin's Altogether Alluring Altbier snagged a gold in the Altbier category and possibly the obnoxiously named beer category.

Oktoberfest competition here in North Texas.

No scoresheet, so could yet be a pyrrhic victory.

Happy camper nonetheless.

Also got this big boot.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Congrats Gavin! I guess I'll make your altbeer then...

Any tasting notes so I will know how far below the mark I hit?

 

[Gavin C]

Congrats Gavin! I guess I'll make your altbeer then...

Any tasting notes so I will know how far below the mark I hit?

Thanks very much Priceless.

No scores or feedback yet i'm afraid. Should get all that via email during the week I guess. Once I have it I'll add any pointers/important notes to the recipe thread.

In my original description I mentioned it being similar to a Dunkel. It really is not similar. Bought a few Dunkel this week after brewing one to reeducate myself on that style for science.

This Altbier is more like a very clean brown lager with a slight nuttiness. I'm truly abysmal at describing flavors I fear. It really is like a lager though. I would never peg it as an ale. But again my tasting skills are sub-par to say the least, I reckon

Having said that, this is an easy to drink beer. An all day-er if the opportunity arose.

 

[Psylocide]

Gavin's Altogether Alluring Altbier snagged a gold in the Altbier category and possibly the obnoxiously named beer category.

Oktoberfest competition here in North Texas.

No scoresheet, so could yet be a pyrrhic victory.

Happy camper nonetheless.

Also got this big boot.

Congrats man! Awesome work.

 

[Gavin C]

Well, that looks ok... But coming in lower than your intended og probably made it taste like garbage.

[emoji3]

He's probably right. I'll do you a solid and pick it up for disposal.

As for the Vienna Lager. Getting rid of it should pose less of a problem after picking up some glassware at the O'fest yesterday. Should help speed along the unpleasant process..:cross:

Bleeagh!

 

[iijakii]

Well my to-brew list has a few more on it now...

 

[Psylocide]

As for the Vienna Lager. Getting rid of it should pose less of a problem after picking up some glassware at the O'fest yesterday. Should help speed along the unpleasant process..:cross:

Bleeagh!
View attachment 307528

View attachment 307529

And... You're sleeping now.

Enjoy that new glass.

 

[skitter]

Nice write-up! I'm down here in Houston with a much simpler setup going on but BIAB is my choice method...

 

[TexasWine]

Nice write-up! I'm down here in Houston with a much simpler setup going on but BIAB is my choice method...

What part of H town? I'm in the Timbergrove area.

 

[pretzelb]

Gavin's Altogether Alluring Altbier snagged a gold in the Altbier category and possibly the obnoxiously named beer category.

Congrats! I'm in the same area and I never saw anything about this competition. I had a Roggenbier that I would have liked to get feedback on.

 

[Gavin C]

Congrats! I'm in the same area and I never saw anything about this competition. I had a Roggenbier that I would have liked to get feedback on.

Thanks man. Where in the metroplex are you?

Took me a while to get clued in on the local competition scene too. Entered two thus far.

The AHA website is great as it lists all the BJCP sanctioned events worldwide. Some as far afield as Jo'burg, Belfast and London.

Another useful site is the state circuit of competitions. The lone star circuit.

I actually heard about the German beer competition by accident. There was a flyer in the great homebrew store Texas Brewing, a.k.a. Stubby's. Lucky for me as I have been on a German beer kick this past while.

The next one I enter probably won't be till the Blue Bonnet. Planning on entering a few. it's the big one. Never been to it but looks like a lot of fun.

Never had a Roggenbier. They sound interesting and tasty.

 

[pretzelb]

Thanks man. Where in the metroplex are you?

Took me a while to get clued in on the local competition scene too. Entered two thus far.

The AHA website is great as it lists all the BJCP sanctioned events worldwide. Some as far afield as Jo'burg, Belfast and London.

Another useful site is the state circuit of competitions. The lone star circuit.

I actually heard about the German beer competition by accident. There was a flyer in the great homebrew store Texas Brewing, a.k.a. Stubby's. Lucky for me as I have been on a German beer kick this past while.

The next one I enter probably won't be till the Blue Bonnet. Planning on entering a few. it's the big one. Never been to it but looks like a lot of fun.

Never had a Roggenbier. They sound interesting and tasty.

Thanks for the links. The problem with links is you have to actually click them every so often to keep track of events! I have them bookmarked at least. That HB store looks really cool. Sadly that's way out of my way. I'm way over far north of Dallas in a town called Prosper. I'm lucky enough to have two HB stores in range (Dallas Homebrew and Homebrew HQ). Dallas Homebrew had an event with several clubs that was fun but I haven't heard about them doing it again.

There are a few clubs in my area but I have yet to link up with them. I'm lucky if I can find the time to brew on the weekends so giving up that time for a club meeting is a tough choice. But I really need to join one.

The Roggenbier is a really crazy style. Rye is enough to give a strange taste but then you throw in wheat malt and yeast and it's a really strange combo. I don't have a good gold reference but I really liked how this one came out. With such strong flavors I think it's hard to screw this one up but I've no clue what would make a winning recipe. I brewed it because we were going to have an Oktoberfest event (that didn't work out) and the Bavarian Hefeweizen I made was awful (I'm still trying to finish that mistake). If I can find more people who like the Roggenbier style I think I'd like making more than once a year.

I'd like to enter a contest just to get some critical feedback. Too often my friends are just happy to get free beer and never complain. I have heard of Bluebonnet before. Supposedly it's really big now.

 

[skitter]

What part of H town? I'm in the Timbergrove area.

North Tomball, right before it becomes The Woodlands, and right across the street is Spring. Kuykhendal area.

 

[Gavin C]

Did a rebrew of my Vienna lager this morning. Changed the recipe quite a bit and also the mash profile (decoction added). Very happy with how everything went.

Minor changes to the recipe included omission of melanoiden, less munich more Vienna and more Pilsner. Targeting higher IBU's toward the upper end of the style range in both OG and IBU. Also use a much softer water profile with the aid of some RO (5 gallons out of a total 8 gallon water requirement)

Grain-bill


A long brewday but fun. The decoction was a lot easier with the right tool for the job; namely a 32 oz stainless steel ladle.

Stove-top Setup

Pulling the Decoction


Boiling the decoction. Smells Great!


Mash Profile

• Short protein rest,
• Infusion to Beta rest
• Decoction to alpha rest and a corrective direct heating of the tun to bring it up a touch. (More decoction volume next time)
• Direct heating again to a short mash-out rest.

Preboil SG



OG 1.051

 

[Brew_G]

A true scientist...

 

[Gavin C]

A true geek...

Fixed that for you G.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Mash Profile
View attachment 310054

• Short protein rest,
• Infusion to Beta rest
• Decoction to alpha rest and a corrective direct heating of the tun to bring it up a touch. (More decoction volume next time)
• Direct heating again to a short mash-out rest.

Why the protein rest? Are you using undermodified malt?

 

[Gavin C]

Why the protein rest? Are you using undermodified malt?

No good reason at all really. It's as you explained to me before not at all needed with these modern fully modified malts. Is it detrimental? Maybe, still got a lot to learn but I figure it will benefit me to at least try these things out.

I got some decent scores with my Helles when I used one though. Pretty weak reason for continuing to do so I suppose. A lot of what I've read confirms the advice you gave me, essentially it's not needed and can have unwanted consequences.

For this and my last lager I did a protein rest at the very upper range of a 130 and 133F respectively.

I guess the main reason I'm doing these things at the moment is mainly to play with my setup while I learn more about lager brewing and see if I enjoy the results. Once I get a few more lagers under my belt I will likely simplify things. The profile I used with your excellent Kolsch was more straight forward and I plan on making a pils next. I'll likely eliminate the protein rest on that one.

Strike at beta rest, decoction to alpha and heat to mash out. Again, you could rightly argue that there is no need for this either, but it's fun.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

No good reason at all really. It's as you explained to me before not at all needed with these modern fully modified malts. Is it detrimental? Maybe, still got a lot to learn but I figure it will benefit me to at least try these things out.

I got some decent scores with my Helles when I used one though. Pretty weak reason for continuing to do so I suppose. A lot of what I've read confirms the advice you gave me, essentially it's not needed and can have unwanted consequences.

For this and my last lager I did a protein rest at the very upper range of a 130 and 133F respectively.

I guess the main reason I'm doing these things at the moment is mainly to play with my setup while I learn more about lager brewing and see if I enjoy the results. Once I get a few more lagers under my belt I will likely simplify things. The profile I used with your excellent Kolsch was more straight forward and I plan on making a pils next. I'll likely eliminate the protein rest on that one.

Strike at beta rest, decoction to alpha and heat to mash out. Again, you could rightly argue that there is no need for this either, but it's fun.

While it's possible to perform short protein rest(s) without perceivable negative effects, I'd still recommend avoiding such rests unless you're using undermodified malts. When using fully modified malts, there is no benefit to protein rests (it has already been done at the malthouse), but there is risk. If enough beta glucanase, peptidase, or proteinase enzymatic activity is performed, you will thin the beer out in a noticeable and unpleasant way. I've tasted the result of this before, and believe me; it's a good way to bring down an otherwise great beer.

I'd stick to beta, beta/alpha, alpha, and mashout options for step mash schedules using fully modified malt.

By the way, I peek in your thread once in a while, and it looks like you're doing very well with your brewing. Great job! Cheers!

 

[pricelessbrewing]

While it's possible to perform short protein rest(s) without perceivable negative effects, I'd still recommend avoiding such rests unless you're using undermodified malts. When using fully modified malts, there is no benefit to protein rests (it has already been done at the malthouse), but there is risk. If enough beta glucanase, peptidase, or proteinase enzymatic activity is performed, you will thin the beer out in a noticeable and unpleasant way. I've tasted the result of this before, and believe me; it's a good way to bring down an otherwise great beer.

I'd stick to beta, beta/alpha, alpha, and mashout options for step mash schedules using fully modified malt.

By the way, I peek in your thread once in a while, and it looks like you're doing very well with your brewing. Great job! Cheers!

Thanks for providing the info, and while it makes sense do you know of any sources that go on about this?

@Gavin, how's the decoction going? Have you had any issues with tannin extraction?

 

[Gavin C]

@Gavin, how's the decoction going? Have you had any issues with tannin extraction?

No problems with tannin extraction thus far. At least none that I can perceive. I've only entered one decoction mashed beer into a competition so far. My Altbier, and it fared well. Still no scoresheet on that one yet unfortunately.

The Dunkel is another beer I made with a decoction. No astringency that I can perceive there either. This Vienna will be the next test of the Decoction so we'll see.

I'm going to try banking some bottles of the Dunkel and the Vienna for next years big competition here in Texas. Nothing suitable coming up to enter them in yet. I'd really value the independent knowledgeable feedback that judges can provide.

I think with a decoction, as it's so thick, and if correctly managing pH in the main mash, it will be of an even lower pH so astringency can't come into play despite the boiling temperatures.

@Tiber_Brew Thanks for the encouraging words. I've learned a great deal from your posts and recipes. Truly in your debt.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Thanks for providing the info, and while it makes sense do you know of any sources that go on about this?

I learned through lots of reading, shadowing other professionals, and lots of experimentation. I don't have any particular link, but you can google it or read up on modern malting and step mashing via a number of books available on Amazon.

Edited to add: after some brief googling, I found this on the science of step mashing from BYO. There are some parts of the article I don't like, but it's a good read and tells the basic story.

@Tiber_Brew Thanks for the encouraging words. I've learned a great deal from your posts and recipes. Truly in your debt.

Happy to help

 

[Gavin C]

When using fully modified malts, there is no benefit to protein rests (it has already been done at the malthouse), but there is risk. If enough beta glucanase, peptidase, or proteinase enzymatic activity is performed, you will thin the beer out in a noticeable and unpleasant way.

I think I am experiencing this error first hand. My most recent beer's flavor is very good and I do enjoy drinking it but there it is definitely too thin in terms of mouthfeel. It's a Munich Dunkel and doesn't stack up with recent commercial examples I have enjoyed.

Munich Dunkel. Tasty but a bit thin OG 1.053, FG . 1.011


Recently I got some more feedback on my Munich Helles (mash profile included a protein rest) which scored 43 and 44 in one competition and only two 29's in a more recent competition. The common critique from the lower scoring judges was a thin and almost watered down flavor.

I gotta be honest, I was very surprised and of course disappointed at the massive disparity in scoring between the two competitions. That is of course the primary reason for entering competitions; to glean this type of knowledgeable feedback. To ignore it would be idiotic.

In short: No more protein rests for me. I hope my currently fermenting Vienna lager with warmer protein rest and decoction mash is not similarly afflicted.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I gotta be honest, I was very surprised and of course disappointed at the massive disparity in scoring between the two competitions. That is of course the primary reason for entering competitions; to glean this type of knowledgeable feedback. To ignore it would be idiotic.

Did you happen to receive the score sheets from the two comps? Was one done by bjcp certified judges, did they say so on the score sheet? I've head similar reports of large swings in comp scores, and recetly found out the bjcp sanctioned competitions do not necessarily mean all of the judges are bjcp.

 

[Gavin C]

Did you happen to receive the score sheets from the two comps? Was one done by bjcp certified judges, did they say so on the score sheet? I've head similar reports of large swings in comp scores, and recetly found out the bjcp sanctioned competitions do not necessarily mean all of the judges are bjcp.

Got all the score-sheets The 4 judges (2 in each competition) were all certified (their certification/rank is marked on the scoresheets) but the damning low scores were from higher ranked judges. I'm reluctantly inclined to listen to their feedback more.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Thanks Gavin,
This is good information and is helpful.

A+ for effort!
Cheers

 

[orangehero]

Recently I got some more feedback on my Munich Helles (mash profile included a protein rest) which scored 43 and 44 in one competition and only two 29's in a more recent competition. The common critique from the lower scoring judges was a thin and almost watered down flavor.

I gotta be honest, I was very surprised and of course disappointed at the massive disparity in scoring between the two competitions. That is of course the primary reason for entering competitions; to glean this type of knowledgeable feedback. To ignore it would be idiotic.

The feedback I see here is that BJCP competitions have little worth, certified judges or not, and are hardly better than random.

If you feel the mouthfeel is too thin, did you really need to spend time, money, and a beer you enjoy to get some "certified" judge to maybe, maybe not determine that?

 

[Gavin C]

If you feel the mouthfeel is too thin, did you really need to spend time, money, and a beer you enjoy to get some "certified" judge to maybe, maybe not determine that?

I did not feel the Helles to be too thin. To be honest I thought I'd knocked it out of the park in terms of flavor, mouthfeel, aroma and clarity; all of which were consistent with commercial examples I have enjoyed. I am of course biased :cross:hence my reasoning to start entering competitions, something I fully intend continuing to do.

I don't view this as wasted time or money. Quite the opposite in fact. Overall the feedback has been positive letting me know that I'm doing many things right.

The feedback has also given me ideas as to how my methods can improve for example in my Kolsch, I intend a cooler ferment (high 50's) as opposed to 62F next time round. For my Alt it makes me consider adding a small aroma hop addition to the recipe. Just small pointers from those in the know.

When judges say things similar to what well versed folks like @tiber_brew have discussed with me, it makes me sit up and take extra notice. I think, as I shared my good results in the forum, it's only right and proper that I share my failures too. I view a 29 as an abject failure in this instance.

Although I clearly don't share your view, thanks nonetheless for the input. Much appreciated. Who knows, perhaps my views will change over time. Looking at some of the medalists in both competitions there are some big hitters. This would seem to point to some decent consistency in the judging.