Increasing hops for a 10g batch....

[seatazzz]

Hey guys, it's been a few years since I did a 10g batch, and I don't have any software to help me calculate the amount of hops I'll need. Here's the 5g recipe I've done many times with great results, that I'm scaling up to a 10g batch tomorrow since lager seems to disappear VERY quickly around here:

8lbs pilsner
2lbs two-row
Mash at 148-152, sparge to get 8 gallons preboil (my boiloff rate is pretty solid)

Hops:
1oz Saaz at 60
1oz Mittelfruh at 10, 5, and flameout

I already milled the grain at 20lbs pilsner and 4lbs two-row; I currently have 5oz Saaz and 4oz Mittelfruh. I read somewhere else around here that increasing the hops isn't really necessary as they'll be fully utilized, but I don't buy that. I'd be willing to use another hop (trust me, I've got a LOT of different hops, including Cascade, N. Brewer, Crystal {believe it or not, makes an amazing lager}, Willamette, and a lot of others that I use for IPAs. Anyone out there with Brewsmith who could cast some insight on this?

 

[michaeltrego]

What are the AA% of your varieties and what is your total IBU target?

 

[Dgallo]

As you increase volume, you actually need to decrease the amount of hops. As volume increases so do utilization. If you have Beer Smith 3, it should account for this.

*edit* I saw you say you don’t have software. Since it’s not directly linear, i would decrease the hops hotside by 5%, but to be honest, you could probably get away with just scaling up by the proportional value

 

[seatazzz]

To be perfectly honest I do not have a specific IBU in mind; I almost never do. I just add what works for me. The Saaz is 3.1% and the Mittelfruh is 4.8%. Since it's a lager I just want some light hopping, I really like the flavor that late additions of Mittelfruh provide, kind of a floral note with some underlying citrus, just a tad. This is a recipe I came up with when trying to clone Widmer's Dreifecta, and it's pretty damn close; except they also use Hallertau Blanc, and I'm out of it.

 

[seatazzz]

As you increase volume, you actually need to decrease the amount of hops. As volume increases so do utilization. If you have Beer Smith 3, it should account for this.

So based on that, I don't really need to increase the hops from my original recipe? I don't know why but that just doesn't seem right. I should note here that I use mesh bags for my hops, which are all pellets.

 

[seatazzz]

So I did just use the free Brewer's Friend hop utilization chart; for my 5 gallon batch it comes up with 22IBU, the same amount of hops in the 10 (actually 11, I aim for 5.5 in the fermenter) was 10.5! I increased the Saaz to 2oz, and the 10 minute Mittelfruh to 2; and got 19.34. I think I'll go with that.

 

[michaeltrego]

Maybe 3 oz. Saaz at 60, 2 oz. Hallertau at 10 and 5, and 2 oz. Crystal at flameout. That's about 26 IBU's total.

 

[Dgallo]

.

 

[Dgallo]

So from experience the can tell you that I was lucky enough to get to brew one of my home brew ipa recipes on a 3 barrel system. My ibus in my 5 gallon batch was around 68. When we scaled up the recipe the ibus calculated over 90 ibus

I just actually plugged in a simple recipe in beer smith to make sure I’m not going crazy.

5 gallon batch
10 lb of Pilsner
1 oz magnum at 60
Calculated 47.7 ibus

10 gallon batch (scaled proportionally)
20lbs Pilsner
2 oz of magnums
51.2 ibus

So you can see increase volume, increased the ibus

 

[Sammy86]

So based on that, I don't really need to increase the hops from my original recipe? I don't know why but that just doesn't seem right. I should note here that I use mesh bags for my hops, which are all pellets.

You definitely need to increase...when i punch it into Brewfather with my equipment for your 5 gal batch;

OG: 1.050
FG: 1.012
IBU: 20

For a 10 gal batch you would need:

2.5 oz Sazz @60

and 2.0 Mittlefrue at your 10,5 flameout to get the same IBUS. However i would bump it up 2.5 to get you to 22 IBUS.

Hope this helps!

 

[bracconiere]

it's been a few years since I did a 10g batch

i don't know why the lower case g made me laugh at the idea of a tbls. batch, lol....sorry if that's off topic.

 

[Vale71]

So based on that, I don't really need to increase the hops from my original recipe? I don't know why but that just doesn't seem right. I should note here that I use mesh bags for my hops, which are all pellets.

That's because it isn't right, even more so if you contstrain your hops instead of letting them swim around freely. To see a measurable increase in hop AA utilization you'd need to increase the batch size by really a lot, like 5g to a few barrels. Going from 5g to 10g you can just double the hop amount, assuming you've already corrected for different AA% content of different hop lots.

 

[Dgallo]

So I did just use the free Brewer's Friend hop utilization chart; for my 5 gallon batch it comes up with 22IBU, the same amount of hops in the 10 (actually 11, I aim for 5.5 in the fermenter) was 10.5! I increased the Saaz to 2oz, and the 10 minute Mittelfruh to 2; and got 19.34. I think I'll go with that.

Just wanted to clarify, I was not suggesting you not up your hops at all. I was informing that utilization would increase. that if you scaled up your hops to be proportionally equivalent to your 5 gallon batch you would actually calculate an increase in ibus. Beer smith calculated roughly a 4 ibu increase. This is below the taste threshold but an increase never the less. Which is why I suggested that you COULD decrease your hot side addition about 5%, if you truly wanted the same number of ibus but you could get away with just increasing them proportionally, in your case just doubling the amount.

 

[Vale71]

Those IBU calculations can be off by as much as 100%. I think that worrying about a supposed 5% increase is a bit pointless in light of the general inaccuracy of the calculations.

 

[Dgallo]

Those IBU calculations can be off by as much as 100%. I think that worrying about a supposed 5% increase is a bit pointless in light of the general inaccuracy of the calculations.

I was just providing the information. it is up to the op if the 5 % difference is enough to worry about

 

[VikeMan]

Just dropped in to say that IMO the major reason that large commercial batches generally get better hop utilization is that they typically take longer to cool after the boil.

There is nothing inherently more efficient about, say, 5 ounces of hops in 25 gallons vs 1 ounce in 5 gallons, assuming an equivalent amount of freedom of movement for the hops. In fact, if the larger batch has the same volume of boil-off as the smaller, then the larger batch should arguably get slightly worse utilization, because the starting (and average) wort volume is not increased proportionally.

I do wonder what BeerSmith is doing (i.e. based on what?), if it's bumping up IBUs for scaled up batches.

Arguments can be made for kettle geometry... "Less hop alpha acids sticking to the sides" and all that, but having brewed a variety of commercial batches, and witnessed/consulted on many more, from 15 gallons up to 15 barrels, the driver I've seen has been increased contact time due to cooling time. If geometry is also influencing it, I think it's a pretty small impact, i.e. noise.

 

[seatazzz]

Wow, thanks for all the responses! Since I've only got 4oz of Mittelfruh, I might just skip the flameout and do 2oz at 10 & 5, and up the Saaz as mentioned above. It's not going to make a huge difference (FYI I got 1.042 preboil instead of my expected 1.030-35, amazing) but I don't want this to be a sweet mess when it's done.