I'm still trying to figure out these yeast starter basics

[AndrewduToit]

Tried to calculate how big my yeast starter should be with for a 60L batch. According to Brewers Friend on the internet, I need a 10 Litre starter. Not even bothered about the cell count. Just want my beer to ferment. It seems the gravity reading before and after you adding the yeast is more important.

 

[sky4meplease]

Tried to calculate how big my yeast starter should be with for a 60L batch. According to Brewers Friend on the internet, I need a 10 Litre starter. Not even bothered about the cell count. Just want my beer to ferment. It seems the gravity reading before and after you adding the yeast is more important.

Just buy extra packs of yeast if you don't want to make a starter.
Tell your LHBS you are doing a 15 gallon batch and your OG and they will tell you how much you need.

 

[allanmorgan]

Not sure if this is relevant to you guys or not, but Neva Parker from White Labs had this to say about starters:

there is a general consensus among homebrewers that a starter is always necessary with any yeast. While I don’t necessarily disagree, what I always try to guide people towards is the right way to make a starter, or at least understanding that a starter in and of itself is not growing a whole bunch of new yeast. I think that’s just a misconception that people have about starters in general. You know, “I’m just going to take a package of yeast that I buy, throw it into a one- or two-liter starter, and I’m just going to double or triple or quadruple the amount of yeast that I have,” but that’s just not true. There’s not enough food and nutrients there to have that happen.

Essentially, a starter is beneficial in that it wakes the yeast up, it gets their metabolism going so that by the time you add it, your fermentation is going to be kick started because the yeast is already active. I think that’s one thing to always remember. It’s not absolutely necessary to have a starter every time unless you’re brewing high gravity beers. If you want to make a starter, just keep in mind that you’re not getting a ton of yeast growth, it’s mostly just an activation process

The whole article is on HBT's home page.

 

[sky4meplease]

Not sure if this is relevant to your guys or not, but Neva Parker from White Labs had this to say about starters:

there is a general consensus among homebrewers that a starter is always necessary with any yeast. While I don’t necessarily disagree, what I always try to guide people towards is the right way to make a starter, or at least understanding that a starter in and of itself is not growing a whole bunch of new yeast. I think that’s just a misconception that people have about starters in general. You know, “I’m just going to take a package of yeast that I buy, throw it into a one- or two-liter starter, and I’m just going to double or triple or quadruple the amount of yeast that I have,” but that’s just not true. There’s not enough food and nutrients there to have that happen.

Essentially, a starter is beneficial in that it wakes the yeast up, it gets their metabolism going so that by the time you add it, your fermentation is going to be kick started because the yeast is already active. I think that’s one thing to always remember. It’s not absolutely necessary to have a starter every time unless you’re brewing high gravity beers. If you want to make a starter, just keep in mind that you’re not getting a ton of yeast growth, it’s mostly just an activation process

The whole article is on HBT's home page.

That is true at certain inoculation rates. At others you are certainly growing yeast.
This is where this thread has gone recently if you read back. The OP is having trouble growing yeast in any appreciable numbers because he has maxed out his equipment.
Keeping the inoculation rate low but not too low and you will grow yeast.
I recently maxed out my 3L flask and did a 2 gallon starter to get the 600 billion cells I needed for a big Ale.
If you have 200 billion cells and throw 1500 ml wort at it (133.33 million cell per milliliter) you won't see much growth but throw 5,000 milliliters at it and see what happens.

 

[allanmorgan]

That is true at certain inoculation rates. At others you are certainly growing yeast.

I figured that might be the case, but wanted to throw it out there anyway. Thanks sky4meplease!

 

[peterlonz]

An awful lot of concern over something which in practice is not very important.
You do need healthy yeast in sufficient quantity.
7 sometimes 11 grams of quality dried yeast is sufficient for a 23 litre brew & it can be pitched directly.
The difference between "direct dry pitched" & "starter pitched" is mainly one of cost not final taste, at least that is my experience.
BTW I don't believe over pitching or pitching a trub+yeast mix will create problems either.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

This is where you are realizing the limitations of your equipment.
You put 225 billion cells into 1,800 milliliters of wort.
That is 125 million cells per milliliter inoculation rate which is pretty high or saturated.
At the stage you were at you would have been better off separating 150 billion cells (1,333 milliliters) of the starter, cold crash and decant the remaining 667 milliliters (75 billion cells) and adding 1,800ml +\- fresh wort to that.
That would keep your inoculation rate to about 40 million cells per milliliter. Much better growth at that rate.
Basically you will be leaving enough in your flask to maintain an optimal inoculation rate and harvesting the rest.
Otherwise you are just wasting precious wort.

From the chart in the book Yeast, on pg.143, it seems to show that 100 billion cells in a 2 liter 1.035 wort will yield around 200 billion cells. Doubling the yeast count and the starter wort volume to 4 liters and 200 billion cells will yield about 400 billion cells.

"2L @ 1.037 with 37billion cells pitched on a stir-plate should result in 319 billion cells."

 

[sky4meplease]

From the chart in the book Yeast, on pg.143, it seems to show that 100 billion cells in a 2 liter 1.035 wort will yield around 200 billion cells. Doubling the yeast count and the starter wort volume to 4 liters and 200 billion cells will yield about 400 billion cells.

That is fairly consistent with what I have experienced in my lab.
In both cases the inoculation rate is 50 million cells per milliliter. Plenty of food to go around.
I like to stay between 30-50 million cells per milliliter because I typically wait until the later stages before I start counting so as to make sure there is plenty of sugar to promote growth. At this point the yeast are plenty viable. I am making yeast.

 

[sky4meplease]

"2L @ 1.037 with 37billion cells pitched on a stir-plate should result in 319 billion cells."

I have never seen growth like that. It sure would be nice though.

 

[sky4meplease]

Check out this:
http://www.probrewer.com/library/archives/quality-control-in-the-brewery/

Dr. Michael J. Lewis wrote in that article:

Generally, brewers are well aware of the need for specification and consistency (quality) in the brewhouse operations. That might be said with less confidence in cellar management — in wort aeration, fermentation temperature, and so on — and there is one glaring shortcoming in many breweries that is worth mentioning: control of the yeast pitching rate.

Michael J. Lewis, Ph.D., is professor emeritus of brewing science at the University of California, Davis, and the academic director and lead instructor of UC Davis Extension’s Professional Brewing Programs. Lewis has been honored with the Master Brewers Association of the Americas’ Award of Merit and the Brewers Association’s Recognition Award. He is an elected fellow of the Institute of Brewing & Distilling. He is also a recipient of the UC Davis Distinguished Teaching Award.

If it's good enough for him it's good enough for me.

I will quote my quote for those who don't think pitch rates matter.