I'm losing my mind over this

[LovesIPA]

I visited a friend of mine this weekend who lives a couple hours away and I haven't seen in a few years. After taking another friend of ours out on Saturday night and crashing at friend #1's house, we decided to have a "brew-b-q" on Sunday. We smoked a couple racks of ribs and brewed a batch while we waited.

He didn't care what we brewed, so I picked an amber ale that I've brewed before, converted it to extract, picked up the ingredients from the LHBS, and got started. Heating the strike water up took about an hour because he uses the side burner on his BBQ.

He looked shocked when I told him that you really shouldn't leave the lid on throughout the boil. He said he ALWAYS leaves the lid on the whole time.

We never got a rolling boil. The best you could call it was a strong simmer.

His normal practice is to dump the kettle into the "settling bucket", top it off with cold water, rack to the fermenter, pitch the yeast & ferment for a week, then rack to secondary for another week. He owns a hydrometer (I saw it) but I didn't see him use it once.

He doesn't write anything down, doesn't measure gravity, doesn't know the ABV, doesn't re-hydrate dry yeast and doesn't measure any of the volumes. He says that brewing is supposed to be fun and he doesn't like to stress about stuff like that. It really drove the point home to me on how two different people can have two completely different approaches to the same hobby.

But I'll be darned if he doesn't make some of the best homebrew I've had. I tasted a Belgian tripel that was amazing.

I am beginning to believe that at least part of what we think we know about brewing isn't true at all.

 

[uatuba]

Brewing is as much art as it is science. Good beer was made before we understood the science behind it. Heck, an open pot of honey that had been left for too long got us where we are today.

That's one reason why I told you to stop monkeying around with your water. There are plenty of other processes that can be improved well before the step of stripping your water and then building it back up.

 

[LovesIPA]

That's one reason why I told you to stop monkeying around with your water. There are plenty of other processes that can be improved well before the step of stripping your water and then building it back up.

First, what processes are you referring to?

Second, if I use my tap water, dark beers come out fine but light beers don't taste right. What should I do if I don't modify the water profile - brew only stouts and porters?

 

[grathan]

Boiling extract isn't as important as with all-grain, I believe most extracts has already been boiled down. The main goals with boiling all-grain are breaking down the protein and getting a hot break (again removing protein) and isomerzation of hop oils for bitterness.

I agree with not using a hydrometer if your using extract, or even for all-grain if your process is somewhat dialed in ( I personally think your %93 is too high though and should be toned down ).

 

[LovesIPA]

Boiling extract isn't as important as with all-grain, I believe most extracts has already been boiled down. The main goals with boiling all-grain are breaking down the protein and getting a hot break (again removing protein) and isomerzation of hop oils for bitterness.

Good point, I hadn't thought of the fact that the extract has already been boiled.

I agree with not using a hydrometer if your using extract, or even for all-grain if your process is somewhat dialed in ( I personally think your %93 is too high though and should be toned down ).

I was thinking about this too. My mill is only set for 0.030". I honestly am not sure why my efficiency is so high.

 

[Safa]

Time for a photo documented brew day?


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[LovesIPA]

Time for a photo documented brew day?

Video would be better. It's crossed my mind once or twice. I'll see if I can recruit SWMBO to record a brew day. I haven't edited video in a long time though. I'll need to do some research to see what software I can use for editing.

 

[uatuba]

First, what processes are you referring to?

Second, if I use my tap water, dark beers come out fine but light beers don't taste right. What should I do if I don't modify the water profile - brew only stouts and porters?

If you think an infection is the issue, then obviously sanitation, for one. If it's astringency you're getting because you're using too much water during the mash, too high of a temp with your mash water, or too much water for mashing out at 170+ and not enough during the mash, then your mashing process.

I don't mean don't doctor your water--but I do mean to take care of the chlorine or chloramine only and let the rest take its course.

There's obviously something in your process that needs improvement ahead of your water doctoring and we're trying to help you figure it out.

 

[tektonjp]

I hate to keep beating this drum, but until you get your beer tasted by more people to identify the off flavor, I feel you're just shooting at things in the dark. I think you've had just one person identify it as an infection. No one else (with authority) has sampled this stuff? I really urge you to get some other tastings done before trying to blindly rectify the "problem."

 

[LovesIPA]

I hate to keep beating this drum, but until you get your beer tasted by more people to identify the off flavor, I feel you're just shooting at things in the dark. I think you've had just one person identify it as an infection. No one else (with authority) has sampled this stuff? I really urge you to get some other tastings done before trying to blindly rectify the "problem."

As someone else in the thread said, "Brewing is not hard." (Although sometimes I wonder...) There really isn't a whole lot that can go wrong with beer that would make it utterly unpalatable. Also take into consideration that I have, on occasion, turned out remarkably good batches - so it's not a fundamental process issue. By itself, one person saying "it's an infection" isn't terribly compelling, but when you look at the big picture, what else fits?

I'm a rational and analytical person by nature and I approach troubleshooting the same way. It's a side affect of my job. At work, when I go into troubleshooting mode, I first gather every data point I can. Then I come up with as many possible theories for the problem I'm seeing as I can. Then I start eliminating them, using either logic (i.e. this can't possibly be the explanation, because it conflicts with an observation) or by performing an experiment to eliminate that theory. Eventually, a solution is arrived at. If you eliminate all the theories, then you need to rack your brain to come up with another one and start over.

If I spent time chasing down every theory without regard to its plausibility, I would waste an enormous amount of time creating experiments to disprove theories that can't possibly be true. This is why I dismissed the idea of the problem being carbonic acid. If it were true, then I wouldn't like the taste of commercial beer, either. Since I haven't tasted this flavor profile in any commercial beers (save for one, which I think had a similar infection problem), I dismissed it as a possible explanation without having to perform any tests.

Unfortunately, it makes me look like I'm argumentative or unappreciative of the feedback I've gotten, and that's not true.

If someone can convince me that there is an entirely different problem that might be the culprit, I'm all ears. But so far no one has been able to come up with a plausible theory.

 

[tektonjp]

I won't quote you back cause it takes up too much space. Troubleshooting starts with identifying the problem. "It doesn't taste right", is too ambiguous. Since you can't identify it well enough to share with us, your first step should be to get it clearly identified. Otherwise, you're just chasing your tail. Collecting data is not meaningful until you identify the off flavor.

 

[BreezyBrew]

I hate to keep beating this drum, but until you get your beer tasted by more people to identify the off flavor, I feel you're just shooting at things in the dark. I think you've had just one person identify it as an infection. No one else (with authority) has sampled this stuff? I really urge you to get some other tastings done before trying to blindly rectify the "problem."

Completely agree with this. It's the only way to find out. Otherwise, troubleshooting is a waste of time.

 

[Seven]

If your willing, I will give you an IPA recipe to brew, your brew it exact. I will pay you to ship some to me. I will tell you what I think or even mail you some of my own.

I thought you were on the right track to possible resolution when grathan gave you a recipe to brew and ship samples for tasting. Then I saw you changed the recipe and wondered how he/she would do a side by side comparison with his own batch if you changed the recipe like you did. Anyways, I think it's a good idea to have someone else taste your beers.

 

[bbohanon]

I visited a friend of mine this weekend who lives a couple hours away and I haven't seen in a few years. After taking another friend of ours out on Saturday night and crashing at friend #1's house, we decided to have a "brew-b-q" on Sunday. We smoked a couple racks of ribs and brewed a batch while we waited.

He didn't care what we brewed, so I picked an amber ale that I've brewed before, converted it to extract, picked up the ingredients from the LHBS, and got started. Heating the strike water up took about an hour because he uses the side burner on his BBQ.

He looked shocked when I told him that you really shouldn't leave the lid on throughout the boil. He said he ALWAYS leaves the lid on the whole time.

We never got a rolling boil. The best you could call it was a strong simmer.

His normal practice is to dump the kettle into the "settling bucket", top it off with cold water, rack to the fermenter, pitch the yeast & ferment for a week, then rack to secondary for another week. He owns a hydrometer (I saw it) but I didn't see him use it once.

He doesn't write anything down, doesn't measure gravity, doesn't know the ABV, doesn't re-hydrate dry yeast and doesn't measure any of the volumes. He says that brewing is supposed to be fun and he doesn't like to stress about stuff like that. It really drove the point home to me on how two different people can have two completely different approaches to the same hobby.

But I'll be darned if he doesn't make some of the best homebrew I've had. I tasted a Belgian tripel that was amazing.

I am beginning to believe that at least part of what we think we know about brewing isn't true at all.

I always love to hear these stories..They are the true testament to a brewer brewing "his" way and I 100% think that once you start over thinking the brewing process is when you start doubting yourself and your beer and making mountains out of molehills in the brewing process which leads to inconsistent results. Keep it simple, clean, fun and stress-free and great beer 9 out of 10 times is the end result.
Great story and I would love to hang out for a Brew-BQ day with you and your friend as he is my kind of brewer!
:fro:

 

[LovesIPA]

I won't quote you back cause it takes up too much space. Troubleshooting starts with identifying the problem. "It doesn't taste right", is too ambiguous. Since you can't identify it well enough to share with us, your first step should be to get it clearly identified. Otherwise, you're just chasing your tail. Collecting data is not meaningful until you identify the off flavor.

I agree but taste is subjective. What tastes like an infection to one might taste good to another. Look at sour beers.

Completely agree with this. It's the only way to find out. Otherwise, troubleshooting is a waste of time.

To both of you: If it's not an infection, what are the other possibilities that fit all of the information I've given?

I thought you were on the right track to possible resolution when grathan gave you a recipe to brew and ship samples for tasting. Then I saw you changed the recipe and wondered how he/she would do a side by side comparison with his own batch if you changed the recipe like you did. Anyways, I think it's a good idea to have someone else taste your beers.

I changed the hop schedule. If I'm going to brew something that tastes great, changing the hop schedule isn't going to turn it into something that make me want to dump 5 gallons down the kitchen sink. I understand the value of comparing the end result, but when the end result is either something good or something undrinkable, I don't need to compare it to anything else to fit it into one of those two categories. To me, that batch was more about silencing the water salt skeptics.

I'm going to cold crash that Mosaic batch tonight and rack it to a keg on Friday.

Also, I had some free time today so I decided to brew a 1-gallon batch. This way, if it sucks, at least it's not 5 gallons gone to waste. It's a Maris Otter/Simcoe SMaSH IPA. I used 2.25 lbs of Maris Otter, mashed at 156 BIAB-style, and 0.2 oz of Simcoe at 60, 15, 5, and 1.

I used RO water built up with salts but I'm fermenting in a 1 gallon glass jug so this will help eliminate the plastic fermenters as a possible source of infection.

This is my first 1-gallon batch ever, and my first BIAB ever.

 

[BreezyBrew]

I just truly believe there's only so much troubleshooting that can be done without actually tasting the beer. It seems like you have changed enough of your process and equipment to drive anyone mad. I think that we have all been there at one point or another, and feel like giving up. I just really think that the quickest, cheapest, and most surefire way to find out what's going on is to have people with good palates drink your beer.

 

[divrguy]

I think the title of your post says it all! Lol


Cheers!

 

[LovesIPA]

I kegged the Mosaic IPA today. Well, technically yesterday. I can't remember if I mentioned that I used a brand new bucket with this batch, but it smells and tastes wonderful. It's very hoppy and it doesn't taste infected at all. I soaked the keg with piping hot water and PBW, including the top outside. I rinsed it well, sanitized everything, and put the keg back together wet with star-san, just as I always do. If it goes bad inside the keg I am going to give up because I can't clean or sanitize any better than I did.

It's carbing now and I'll let you know how it tastes again in a couple of days.

 

[derek704]

Congrats, and good luck!


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[LovesIPA]

Question for those that keg: Do you cover the mouth of the keg during racking? I always cover it with a star-san soaked paper towel to prevent the CO2 from escaping and to keep anything from getting into the keg.

 

[TimmyWit]

Man, I feel for you and I applaud your determination. I hope your problem is fixed. I can't offer up anything that hasn't already been covered here. But, if your problem isn't fixed, maybe you could try a new approach.

Buy a beginners extract kit (new siphon, fermenter, etc) and source your water from somewhere different. The key is that you don't use anything that you are currently using.

If the beer is good, start introducing your system back to your process one component at a time. For example, brew another extract kit using your current water source. If it's still good, brew another one with all the new equipment and then keg it. Maybe even get a new keg/borrow a keg with a picnic tap so the only thing you're introducing is your Co2 setup.

In theory, you're fessing up to having one more bad batch but you should be able to start making good beer. If you use all virgin gear and still have the problem, at least you have eliminated all your components.

I know this isn't the cheapest method but it beats dumping batch after batch down the drain.

 

[Seven]

Question for those that keg: Do you cover the mouth of the keg during racking? I always cover it with a star-san soaked paper towel to prevent the CO2 from escaping and to keep anything from getting into the keg.

I do the exact thing you described; I soak a paper towel with star san and use it to cover the keg opening when racking.

 

[BreezyBrew]

i do the exact thing you described; i soak a paper towel with star san and use it to cover the keg opening when racking.

+2

 

[pablosbrewing]

First, what processes are you referring to?

Second, if I use my tap water, dark beers come out fine but light beers don't taste right. What should I do if I don't modify the water profile - brew only stouts and porters?

This is what I do for my BIAB setup 5.5 gal batches - I do use 1/4tsp potassium metabisulfite to knock out the chloramine first.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/

 

[LovesIPA]

I never tried that calculator before. I'll have to play with it. It looks really simple to use.

 

[LovesIPA]

I had a couple pints of the Mosaic IPA last night. It was good, but I could taste the beginnings of the off-flavor. The hop flavor and aroma were there but a little subdued compared to the sample I took at kegging.

I just tried some now and I can hardly smell or taste hops anymore. The aroma and flavor are just about gone and all I taste is a gross sweet/sour flavor.

Well it's not the water. I think this proved that. I think that it's time to throw everything plastic away (not that there is all that much) again and replace. I think I should have used a new auto-siphon this time. I used a new bucket but the auto-siphon had been used to transfer infected beers. I soaked it in bleach, rinsed well, and then soaked it star-san.

DAMN this is frustrating. But I feel like I'm really close to solving the problem.

 

[derek704]

I wonder if the contaminate is airborne. Could an air purifier possibly do the trick?


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[Conman13]

Have you had another experienced brewer try the beer yet?

Take the path of least resistance man...

 

[WNCBrewman]

That I believe we're due to minimal oxidation while racking. The problem is you start with great smelling and tasting beer then the off flavor can be very minimal, then it takes over and gets worse and takes over both malt and hop flavors. Some describe it as cardboard but I find it to be somewhat metallic. So I've noticed on the last five batches that I have paid very close attention to my racking technique along with bottling technique (no air pockets any where in the tubing or near transitions like my auto siphon or bottling wand) I have had much better results . Also union Dr brought up a great point about removing sprockets from your bottling buckets or plastic tormentors to ensure proper cleaning sanitation and ensuring your not introducing left over cleaner to your beer inadvertently. Hope you find out your problems . I'm sure it could be a simple step such as this.

 

[LovesIPA]

Have you had another experienced brewer try the beer yet?

Take the path of least resistance man...

No, I haven't. I honestly have no idea who to ask. I don't know any experienced brewers.

But why? I have no doubt what the problem is - I am just struggling trying to get rid of it. Apparently soaking in bleach for a couple hours doesn't do it, which is pretty surprising. I'm at the point now where I'm going to throw out anything that's made of plastic and has come into contact with an infected batch.

That I believe we're due to minimal oxidation while racking. The problem is you start with great smelling and tasting beer then the off flavor can be very minimal, then it takes over and gets worse and takes over both malt and hop flavors. Some describe it as cardboard but I find it to be somewhat metallic. So I've noticed on the last five batches that I have paid very close attention to my racking technique along with bottling technique (no air pockets any where in the tubing or near transitions like my auto siphon or bottling wand) I have had much better results.

It can't be oxidation. For one, it takes weeks for those flavors to develop. This happens in days. Second, I am very careful to avoid oxidation. Those bubbles you see in the top of a racking cane are CO2 bubbles knocked out of solution. The fermenter is full of CO2. The keg is full of CO2. I don't see how the beer could even come into contact with a significant amount of oxygen.

Also union Dr brought up a great point about removing sprockets from your bottling buckets or plastic tormentors to ensure proper cleaning sanitation and ensuring your not introducing left over cleaner to your beer inadvertently. Hope you find out your problems . I'm sure it could be a simple step such as this.

It's not that either, my buckets don't have spigots. They are provisioned for them, but they aren't drilled out. On the inside they are all smooth plastic. I don't secondary and I don't use a bottling bucket. I rack right from primary fermenter to the keg.