I've been using a stainless steel stock pot (polished) all along. No metallic taste save for a double batch of Midwest's PM berlin wheat. and that could've been old grains.
I'm losing my mind over this
- Thread starter LovesIPA
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How much time? I'm asking you because you seemed to know. Are you only speculating? Because if not, I'd like to know more.
The cornys we all use were approved in their previous lives to hold sodas which are more aciditic then a proper mixture of starsan. I can't imagine this would be a problem, but I'm open minded if you know something I don't.
I don't believe that's true,as I get no metallic flavors from stainless steel. Mild steel is different,as that's what the core of enameled pots is made from,& why you don't brew in them when they get chipped.
What about depressurizing the keg, opening the top and taking a sample from inside the keg instead of having it go though the dip tube and the rest of the plumbing?
Of course making sure to stay sterile throughout the process.
Of course making sure to stay sterile throughout the process.
My water is hard. I jyst rinse after siaking in oxiclean with hot water.
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ArizonaGoalie
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I believe there may be some sort of curse that was put on your kegging equipment. A few questions:
Are you a Dallas Cowboys, New York Yankees, or Detroit Red Wings fan?
At anytime since you've been a brewer, did you have a bad end to a relationship?
Have you at anytime watched an Adam Sandler movie in the home where you brew?
Finally, have you considered purchasing a pair of anti-beer bug undergarments to ward off evil spirits?
I'd have the local chief come over and bless your equipment, for starters. If you're a fan of the above mentioned teams, switch allegiances right now. And if you've watched an Adam Sandler flick, quickly make sure you watch Caddyshack or Dumb and Dumber to cleanse your home of horrific attempts at comedy.
In all seriousness, hope you find a fix. I had two batches go bad on me early in my career and to this day still don't know the exact culprit.
Are you a Dallas Cowboys, New York Yankees, or Detroit Red Wings fan?
At anytime since you've been a brewer, did you have a bad end to a relationship?
Have you at anytime watched an Adam Sandler movie in the home where you brew?
Finally, have you considered purchasing a pair of anti-beer bug undergarments to ward off evil spirits?
I'd have the local chief come over and bless your equipment, for starters. If you're a fan of the above mentioned teams, switch allegiances right now. And if you've watched an Adam Sandler flick, quickly make sure you watch Caddyshack or Dumb and Dumber to cleanse your home of horrific attempts at comedy.
In all seriousness, hope you find a fix. I had two batches go bad on me early in my career and to this day still don't know the exact culprit.
Went to Dr okamoke I said doctor,is there nuthin I can take? He said you put de lime in de coconut,then you feel betta. 
LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
I'm not a fan of any of those franchises, but I am a fan of the Buffalo Bills... so I'm sure that's why.
After what my homebrewer friend said - that it tastes like the beginning of an infection - I'm sure it's got to do with keg sanitation. The yeast slant thing could just be a coincidence. I don't track what kegs held what batches so there's no way to know for sure, but the first good batch did kick fairly close to when the second good batch, so it's possible they were in the same keg.
I'll post back when I find out more. My forehead is tired from banging it against the wall so much lately.
I really do appreciate the well-thought out, helpful, and funny responses in this thread.
After what my homebrewer friend said - that it tastes like the beginning of an infection - I'm sure it's got to do with keg sanitation. The yeast slant thing could just be a coincidence. I don't track what kegs held what batches so there's no way to know for sure, but the first good batch did kick fairly close to when the second good batch, so it's possible they were in the same keg.
I'll post back when I find out more. My forehead is tired from banging it against the wall so much lately.
I really do appreciate the well-thought out, helpful, and funny responses in this thread.
My point is that RO with Star-San (acid) really drops the pH, and is more aggressive than regular water with Star-San. Syrup in stainless steel when held cold is a different ball game.
As to OP's metallic taste, I am tossing out some ideas.
I do know this, stainless steel unpassivated is a lot more vulnerable to attack than stainless steel properly passivated.
That's why I don't use Starsan (acid based sanitizer) on SS. Boiling is good enough.
Mostly I clean it with something, frankly dish soap seems to work the best in the boil kettle vs. PBW. The more you scrub with abrasives, the more acid you use, the more likely you are to the metal getting corroded.
Less can be more when it comes to cleaning your boil kettle, or other stainless gear. You want that protective oxide, that passivation.
LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
I don't really think there is a metallic taste in the beer. My girlfriend suggested that and I think people ran with that in absence of a better description from me.
Like I said, it completely changed the character and flavor of the beer. Infection seems to make the most sense because if another organism got into the beer and started reproducing, it would alter the whole flavor profile of the beer.
Also, if a brewery didn't sanitize their kegs well enough, it's possible I could pick up the same flavor profile from a common bug in a commercial beer.
I took a sample from the keg and it didn't change the flavor. It was still there. I also let a sample go completely flat and tasted it. The flavor was still there although the beer tasted a little different because it was flat. That was the only change I noticed.
Like I said, it completely changed the character and flavor of the beer. Infection seems to make the most sense because if another organism got into the beer and started reproducing, it would alter the whole flavor profile of the beer.
Also, if a brewery didn't sanitize their kegs well enough, it's possible I could pick up the same flavor profile from a common bug in a commercial beer.
I took a sample from the keg and it didn't change the flavor. It was still there. I also let a sample go completely flat and tasted it. The flavor was still there although the beer tasted a little different because it was flat. That was the only change I noticed.
Having played paintball for many years, I know from experience that there is definitely such a thing called a "dirty fill". Especially with co2. Sometimes dirt and sediment (even metal shaving), can sometimes get in the main tank. For many uses, the difference between a clean fill and a dirty one wouldn't make much difference, with beer it could make a great deal of difference.
I would try emptying your tank, and getting it filled somewhere else.
I understand that aluminum or mild steel need that oxidation layer to keep out metallic flavors. But not SS,never had that issue cleaning with dish soap or PBW. I use a Dobie brand nylon mesh covered sponge scrubber with either cleaner,so not a lot of abrasion going on there. Polished stainless as well.
Good point about the dirty fill...I hadn't concidered that.
LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
That's my understanding as well. Stainless is not supposed to impart ANYTHING into beer. That's why it's so widely popular in the industry.
I actually ran into that problem. I picked up a tank of CO2 that had something else in it. When I figured out what was happening I took it back to the shop and they confirmed it was contaminated just by smelling it. Now, every time I pick up a tank I crack it open and take a whiff. If it doesn't smell right, I exchange it right there.
My understanding as well. And since shiny SS is used in the commercial brweries,you know it doesn't impart any flavors or they'd use something else. I've been told SS was best since coming on here.
"How to Brew" discusses passivation of stainless steel: http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixB-1.html
I hadn't given it much thought, but I often use Bar Keeper's Friend to clean the stainless boil kettle, and from what I've read, it's fairly common. I don't think I'll panic, but probably should be alert to any metallic off-flavors.
I hadn't given it much thought, but I often use Bar Keeper's Friend to clean the stainless boil kettle, and from what I've read, it's fairly common. I don't think I'll panic, but probably should be alert to any metallic off-flavors.
Ok,so what that article is say is that if you use anything metal to scrub it with,or metal utinsels, it can cause surface rusting,& must be cleaned to bare metal. Then dried & exposed to the air where it will re-passivate the surface of the SS by itself. This refers to the chromium in the srface of the stainless. So not a whole lot of effort is reqiuired by us. So my drying my SS kettle off & storing it in the bottom of my fermenter stand is plenty. IE-NO WORRIES!
I dont know who you get ypur gas from but companies like Praxair and Linde and Air Liquide filter all there co2 regardless of it being for beverage gas ir not. Only thing they do diff for the more expensive beverage co2 is purgecthe tank twice.
LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
It's sold by a welding shop, who gets it from Matheson. I contacted Matheson about getting some information about their CO2 but they never responded.
As this had me alarmed, I have done considerable web research on the issue, and the vast majority of brewers out there feel starstan stored in a corny, even long term, is safe.
The PH of the syrup (concentrated form) of Coke is roughly 1.5
The PH of Coke is roughly 2.7
The PH of starsan in RO is roughly 2.6 at recommended dilution.
So if those tanks can hold syrup (PH 1.5) at warehouse (room) temperatures for years/decades, and homebrewers all over the country can clean them and not experience any metallic off flavors...I think storing starsan in RO for a few weeks is a non-concern.
Don't fear the foam.
Agreed. Good news is that one can easily passivate stainless by merely drying it and exposing it to the air. You bring up a great point to the OP though, if his off flavors are metallic, and he's using a harsh abrasive to clean the inside of the cornys then filling with starsan before letting them dry...it COULD leach metals from your corny. Use green scrubby pads on the inside of your kegs if need be.
But then again, don't drink the starsan. Finished beer has a much higher PH then starsan does so the likelihood it's leaching metal from your keg is very low.
LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
So I've been cleaning all of my kegs by soaking them in hot (170*) water and PBW, first right side up, then upside down in a bucket to clean the outside as well as the inside.
I've been re-using the PBW water and heating it back up to 170* each time with my propane burner and boil kettle. My boil kettle was scrubbed once by hand a few months ago but it was getting pretty bad again. Well after a couple of cycles of heating up PBW water, the inside of my kettle came completely clean. All of the scale just fell off. The last time it looked like this was when it was brand new. I can't believe how well it worked.
Hopefully this means all my kegs will be CLEAN and bug free.
Next is to take the keezer apart and soak and sanitize it.
I've been re-using the PBW water and heating it back up to 170* each time with my propane burner and boil kettle. My boil kettle was scrubbed once by hand a few months ago but it was getting pretty bad again. Well after a couple of cycles of heating up PBW water, the inside of my kettle came completely clean. All of the scale just fell off. The last time it looked like this was when it was brand new. I can't believe how well it worked.
Hopefully this means all my kegs will be CLEAN and bug free.
Next is to take the keezer apart and soak and sanitize it.
Bstout
Member
WOW!!! Cant believe I just read all that, couldn't stop once I started thought there maybe some usefull info in there somewhere... Now its just time that Ill never get back! Believe Ill go bang my head into the wall. I HOPE U FIGURED OUT WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS!!!
Not at all what I was lookn for.
Not at all what I was lookn for.
LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
So sorry it wasn't what you were looking for. Maybe you feel better wasting someone's time with your useless post.
What's the word on your latest efforts? Has there been any resolution yet?
LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
I haven't had much time for brewing lately and I haven't been home that much to drink it anyway.
I never did end up bottling a batch, but the Chocolate Porter I naturally carbonated in the keg came out really well - no infection flavors. It's still on tap. I made an Amber Ale (which was EXCELLENT - I will be posting the recipe after I've brewed it a few more times) that started to taste off after about three weeks in the keg. I have no idea what happened, but the first ~35 pints out of it were perfect, if a little over-carbed.
I kegged a stout a couple of weeks ago. When I opened the fermentor, it clearly had a lacto infection starting. I racked from underneath but I haven't had time to tap it yet so it's just sitting there in the keg. Hopefully it will be OK but my hopes are not high. I re-used a WLP002 yeast cake from an Oktoberfest I brewed which wasn't infected in the fermentor but was definitely infected after I kegged it, so the yeast SHOULD have been fine. Maybe something snuck into the fermentor while I had it open to rack the Oktoberfest out.
I brewed a Nelson Sauvin IPA but it didn't seem to taste right when I tapped it. It's carbonating now and I don't know if it's really bad or I had too many homebrews when I tasted it. I'm out of town again so I can't taste it now. If it is infected, it happened when I dry-hopped it, which would make three that got infected during dry-hopping. In fact, anything I dry hop gets infected.
I've tried:
- Steel mesh balls for infusing flavor into soup. They were brand new out of the package and I soaked them in Star-san. Ended up with a lacto infection.
- Paint strainer bag. Boiled it with a stainless fitting inside to weigh it down, put the hops in and a week later it had a white pellicle.
- Stainless steel dry-hopper for kegs (from an HBT sponsor). Cleaned it well, soaked it in star-san and it's in the Nelson Sauvin IPA right now, which I suspect is infected but I won't know for sure until I get back home tonight.
I am VERY careful with cleaning and sanitation - especially after what I learned with apparently not cleaning the kegs well enough. Absolutely everything is cleaned well and soaked in Star-san.
I didn't have an infected batch for a LONG time. Now it seems like it's extremely easy to do. I don't understand people who are sloppy with cleaning and sanitation and claim they never had an infection.
For "not having much time lately for brewing", you sure are turning out a fair volume of beer with 3 new batches!
Obviously something is very wrong in your set up. I really can't see any reason all of these beers should be getting lacto infections or getting off tastes. I can infer from your other posts that you know the brewing process and have good sanitation practices. Maybe you need to change out your plastic for new buckets/carboys/tubing. Dry hopping shouldn't introduce any infections - and there isn't much need to use "devices" to dry hop -- just throw the hops in.
Maybe what you're considering pellicles and lacto infections aren't really infections? Maybe you can send some bottles of your "off" beers to someone to help you diagnose the flavor? Maybe your perceived off flavors aren't "off"?
I'm frustrated for you. Sounds like its time to start over with some new equipment. Oh, and bottle a batch for heaven's sake to see if its the kegging's fault!
Obviously something is very wrong in your set up. I really can't see any reason all of these beers should be getting lacto infections or getting off tastes. I can infer from your other posts that you know the brewing process and have good sanitation practices. Maybe you need to change out your plastic for new buckets/carboys/tubing. Dry hopping shouldn't introduce any infections - and there isn't much need to use "devices" to dry hop -- just throw the hops in.
Maybe what you're considering pellicles and lacto infections aren't really infections? Maybe you can send some bottles of your "off" beers to someone to help you diagnose the flavor? Maybe your perceived off flavors aren't "off"?
I'm frustrated for you. Sounds like its time to start over with some new equipment. Oh, and bottle a batch for heaven's sake to see if its the kegging's fault!
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
The fermenters, transfer hoses, kegs, keg seals, airlocks, what you pull samples with, ect, anything and everything that comes in contact with your beer could be infected. any one or all of these things could be holding the infection in them.
Rubber is the the worst to get an infection out of, then plastics, then metal.
I know Im repeating myself but Im going to say it again, and now with you dumping batches it might be cheaper to try this.
When I could not get rid of a infection with StarSan and bleach, I used $25 worth of Hydrogen Peroxide (about same price as dumping 1 batch) from the $1 store, 50/50 mixed with water, soak everything for 3 days in it, it even killed the infection in the rubber parts.
Good luck my friend, Infections suck!
Cheers
Rubber is the the worst to get an infection out of, then plastics, then metal.
I know Im repeating myself but Im going to say it again, and now with you dumping batches it might be cheaper to try this.
When I could not get rid of a infection with StarSan and bleach, I used $25 worth of Hydrogen Peroxide (about same price as dumping 1 batch) from the $1 store, 50/50 mixed with water, soak everything for 3 days in it, it even killed the infection in the rubber parts.
Good luck my friend, Infections suck!
Cheers
When you keg your beers that have to sit waiting for a tap,like the stout,did you at least fill the head space with some co2? Air in the head space isn't good.
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