I'm losing my mind over this

[unionrdr]

I'm saying oxyclean (oxyfree to be exact) is not exactly like PBW. It's made to take stains out of cloth. PBW in the different dilutions listed on the container will clean anything,is food safe,& biodegradable.

 

[progmac]

tell us about your typical fermentation schedule

 

[rayfound]

I'd say you're loading up with too much mineral.

Are you brewing Extract? If so, you shouldn't really bother with any mineral additions to RO Water - the minerals are already concentrated in the extract from when the maltster did the original mash and concentration. Just brew with straight RO.

If you're brewing all-grain, then I'd suggest trying a VERY limited water profile, as presented in the water chemistry primer:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Basically, in the simplest of terms, add 1 tsp CaCl to each 5 gallons of water treated. ( I usually prefill 2 6-gallon carboys with RO water, and just add a bit more than a tsp to each)

Also, add 2% Acidulated Malt to your mash.

The vaguely "Metallic" taste, IMO, is almost certainly excess mineral content.

You certainly seem like you understand sanitation and carbonation, so I see it as fairly unlikely that you're getting repeated infections, etc...

 

[ballsy]

+1 infinity to bottling a batch! You rule out any keg related issue (including lines). Also, why not try to use normal water (even bottled spring water) for a batch which rules out the possible errors on "making" your water. I would do all of these with 1 gallon batches with really fast turnover beers (SMaSH or something really pale) to get answers quicker and less wasted liquid gold Good luck!

 

[LovesIPA]

Give it some time like 14 days on the gas.

It doesn't matter how long I let it sit in the keg.

tell us about your typical fermentation schedule

5-7 days at low 60's in chest freezer with an STC-1000. The probe is taped to the side of the fermenter. Then I move the batch where it sits at about 72 ambient for 2 weeks. Then I either keg it, or dry hop it for a week and then keg. I use sewn together paint strainer bags which are boiled before the hops are placed in the bag and it gets dumped into the primary fermenter.

Basically, in the simplest of terms, add 1 tsp CaCl to each 5 gallons of water treated.

I have a decent understanding of water chemistry too, and I'm not going to just blindly dump arbitrary amounts of minerals into the water without any regard to what kind of beer it is. That approach is not going to make good beer, in my opinion. Also, you're telling that I'm using too many mineral additions, and then you tell me I should use roughly 10-20 times as much as I'm using now.



I brew all-grain batches.

+1 infinity to bottling a batch! You rule out any keg related issue (including lines). Also, why not try to use normal water (even bottled spring water) for a batch which rules out the possible errors on "making" your water. I would do all of these with 1 gallon batches with really fast turnover beers (SMaSH or something really pale) to get answers quicker and less wasted liquid gold Good luck!

I brewed a Racer 5 clone as my first ever batch, and used spring water. It came out great, but it was made with extract and bottled. But the reason that I don't think it's water chemistry is that because I have spent HOURS researching and understanding water chemistry. The documentation and comments in Bru'n Water helped me understand it more than anything. I've also read (over and over, until I understood) Palmer's chapter on the subject and for a while, I was doing water calculations with my own spreadsheet. It was too lacking in functionality and for the effort it would have required to get it there, it was easier to learn to use Bru'N Water.

The other major reason that I'm confident it's not bad water chemistry is because the beer tastes fine out of the fermenter. It's not until a few days in the keg that the flavor begins to show up. I don't buy that the CO2 is reacting with the water elements or anything else in the beer either. CO2 is not very reactive at all, and it seems like this would be a widespread and common concern if it was that easy to do.

 

[ballsy]

It doesn't matter how long I let it sit in the keg.

5-7 days at low 60's in chest freezer with an STC-1000. The probe is taped to the side of the fermenter. Then I move the batch where it sits at about 72 ambient for 2 weeks. Then I either keg it, or dry hop it for a week and then keg. I use sewn together paint strainer bags which are boiled before the hops are placed in the bag and it gets dumped into the primary fermenter.

I have a decent understanding of water chemistry too, and I'm not going to just blindly dump arbitrary amounts of minerals into the water without any regard to what kind of beer it is. That approach is not going to make good beer, in my opinion.

I brew all-grain batches, never extract.

I brewed a Racer 5 clone as my first ever batch, and used spring water. It came out great, but it was made with extract and bottled. But the reason that I don't think it's water chemistry is that because I have spent HOURS researching and understanding water chemistry. The documentation and comments in Bru'n Water helped me understand it more than anything. I've also read (over and over, until I understood) Palmer's chapter on the subject and for a while, I was doing water calculations with my own spreadsheet. It was too lacking in functionality and for the effort it would have required to get it there, it was easier to learn to use Bru'N Water.

The other major reason that I'm confident it's not bad water chemistry is because the beer tastes fine out of the fermenter. It's not until a few days in the keg that the flavor begins to show up. I don't buy that the CO2 is reacting with the water elements or anything else in the beer either. CO2 is not very reactive at all, and it seems like this would be a widespread and common concern if it was that easy to do.

More reason to bottle ur next batch and see what happens!!

 

[JuanMoore]

RO water built up with salts.

I use an autosiphon and I purge the keg with CO2 immediately prior to racking.

I am definitely not making it clear how bad this beer tastes. It's awful.

Just to be clear, your star-san is being mixed with RO water built up with salts? If your tap water has chlorine or chloramines in it, even just the residue left behind from the star-san foam could cause enough chlorophenol production to get beyond the miniscule taste threshold. And FWIW star-san will be more effective and have a longer shelf life if you mix it with straight RO or distilled water, no salts added.

Did you replace the autosiphon when you replaced your transfer tubing? IME those things are more likely to hold on to nasties than even old scratched up transfer tubing.

It would really help if you could be more descriptive about the off flavor, or let some more people taste it and see if they can offer some better descriptives.

 

[rayfound]

I have a decent understanding of water chemistry too, and I'm not going to just blindly dump arbitrary amounts of minerals into the water without any regard to what kind of beer it is. That approach is not going to make good beer, in my opinion. Also, you're telling that I'm using too many mineral additions, and then you tell me I should use roughly 10-20 times as much as I'm using now.
.

OK, now you have me intrigued (even if somewhat annoyed at your dismissive attitude). FWIW - I didn't make up the water recommendation, and I would recommend reading the thread I linked. If that is 20X more mineral than you're adding, I'd say you're way under-mineralized. 1 tsp = approx 5 grams of CaCl.

You're asking for help here, because you don't like your beer. There's a bunch of folks trying to help.

So Far you've eliminated from contention:

• Recipes - you found the problem on multiple recipes
• Sanitation - you're positive you've got everything sanitized
• Carbonation - you're sure you're doing that right
• Keg Cleaning - you're sure you are getting it properly cleaned.
• Water Chemistry - you're sure you know what's up with water chemistry
• Faucets - you're sure you've got good faucets with no problems
• Fermentation Temps - You're sure you've got that controlled properly

Either you've got some REALLY unique problem, or you're wrong on one of the items you're sure on.

So I think at this point for anyone to give you help, we're going to need a detailed run down of what your process is.

Let's list a recipe that you've had the problem on. List your mash temps (Is your thermometer accurate?), your mash PH, OG and FG, yeast used, fermentation schedule, pitch temp, water profile used (as well as how you measured the salts... I know my scale goes down to 1g increments, but isn't particularly accurate on really small values).

I hope we can help you, but I think at this point we all need more info.

 

[LovesIPA]

Just to be clear, your star-san is being mixed with RO water built up with salts?

I completely misread your post. The star-san water is straight tap water.

If your tap water has chlorine or chloramines in it, even just the residue left behind from the star-san foam could cause enough chlorophenol production to get beyond the miniscule taste threshold. And FWIW star-san will be more effective and have a longer shelf life if you mix it with straight RO or distilled water, no salts added.

Didn't know any of that. I'll be making sanitizer with RO water from now on.

Did you replace the autosiphon when you replaced your transfer tubing? IME those things are more likely to hold on to nasties than even old scratched up transfer tubing.

No, I didn't. I do have another that I can use.

I have a tendency to continue using something until it stops working. Is there a schedule that I should be replacing various components on?

It would really help if you could be more descriptive about the off flavor, or let some more people taste it and see if they can offer some better descriptives.

I agree, it would.

I'm having a very experienced homebrewer come over one night this week to see what he thinks.

 

[JuanMoore]

No, I didn't. I do have another that I can use.

I have a tendency to continue using something until it stops working. Is there a schedule that I should be replacing various components on?

I only mentioned it because if I suspected an infection the first thing I'd do is toss all of my transfer tubing, plastic racking canes, and autosiphon. Those are all plastic items than can be difficult to fully clean if there's something really nasty living in there, and they're relatively cheap to replace. Otherwise I'd also use it 'til it breaks.

And FWIW here are some flavor descriptors for chlorophenols, which could be the culprit if the tap water you're mixing with the sanitizer has high chlorine/chloramine levels. They can vary depending on the type of phenols in the beer from the yeast.

These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds.

 

[grathan]

Yeah I doubt the under sink filter is getting all the chloramine.

 

[LovesIPA]

Yeah I doubt the under sink filter is getting all the chloramine.

Who said anything about an under the sink filter?

 

[progmac]

after reading through all this, and if you were me, the first thing i would change would be my yeast. building up from tiny amounts does introduce a reasonable possibility of contamination. you could easily eliminate this possibility by brewing a basic pale with a rehydrated sachet of s-05.

the next thing would be replacing all plastic components. i can think of a couple times in the past where people have made similar posts and the issue was resolved with a new fermentation bucket.

 

[grathan]

Who said anything about an under the sink filter?

You said you use a filter for chlorine in post #22. I threw chloramines out there to see your reaction. Since you don't dispute they are in your water let's assume they are. I don't believe you can simply filter them out.

 

[LovesIPA]

after reading through all this, and if you were me, the first thing i would change would be my yeast. building up from tiny amounts does introduce a reasonable possibility of contamination. you could easily eliminate this possibility by brewing a basic pale with a rehydrated sachet of s-05.

If it's the yeast, why does the beer taste fine out of the fermenter, but bad after 3-4 days in the keg?

the next thing would be replacing all plastic components. i can think of a couple times in the past where people have made similar posts and the issue was resolved with a new fermentation bucket.

I have about 5 buckets, a better bottle, and a glass carboy.

But I will buy a new autosiphon.

You said you use a filter for chlorine in post #22. I threw chloramines out there to see your reaction. Since you don't dispute they are in your water let's assume they are. I don't believe you can simply filter them out.

The RO water is use is also carbon filtered, which DOES remove all the chlorine and chloramines.

Also - if it's chlorine in the water, why does the beer taste fine out of the fermenter yadda yadda

 

[DocScott]

I think this has been argued enough at this point. I go back to my previous post and say, bottle the next batch. That will clearly define if its ingredients/water/process or if it's keg/gas/etc.

It's easy for us to give suggestions but the op seems like they have thought of all of this and ruled it out. Now, it's possible there is an oversight on op's behalf, but I think its obvious that a lot of variables can be eliminated and the possible solutions narrowed by simply bottling a batch. Keep us posted...frustrated for you.

 

[savannahbrew]

Whenever I use oxi-clean I always use warm water to get it to dissolve better and then just rinse a few times. I had read somewhere a while back (and I can't source this) that after using oxi-clean (sodium percarbonate) it was important to neutralize it with an acid. StarSan is an acid based cleaner so I always dump a gallon or so in my kegs and give it a good mix. I dump that out rinse one more time and sanitize again. Never had any problems so I just keep doing it. Good Luck!

 

[jbaysurfer]

If it's definitely NOT all the things you're saying it's "definitely not" OP, then it's you.

Sorry, it can't NOT be every single potential thing that people mentioned. Do you want to get it fixed or not? It's time to open your mind to what it MIGHT be instead of what you're absolutely certain it's NOT.

You have given us zero description of your carbing process...it's force carbed, we know that, but do you set and forget? What's your storage/serving temp? Are you shaking it?

It's either your kegs or carbonic bite is my guess, but you've already said you're certain it's NOT those things...so I guess you're on your own.

 

[progmac]

If it's the yeast, why does the beer taste fine out of the fermenter, but bad after 3-4 days in the keg?

My experience with contaminated yeast has been that the intended strain dominates and gives the expected flavor profile initially, but then, with time, the character from the contaminate strain starts coming through. This might happen whether the contamination is in the yeast itself or coming from the bucket.

Then again, a lot of this action I'm talking about would be greatly retarded at fridge temperatures.

Not a perfect answer, but I think it is worth considering.

 

[coolharry]

I've got to agree with others here and say bottle a batch and see what happens.
You said yourself it tastes great right out of the fermentation vessel. So logically it has to be something after (or during) transfer to the keg. Confirm this by bottling, and then if the taste doesn't show up, you know its your kegging gear and you have a lot fewer variable to consider.

 

[Whattawort]

FWIW - the undersides (inside the keg) of the in/out posts tend to be under cleaned and/or under sanitized. Those little nooks and crannies are hard to clean thoroughly. It's even harder to remember to clean them. You may be harboring a stinky critter in there.

 

[Brewligan]

If your getting your co2 from a welding store MAKE sure its not a blended argon/ co2 mix. I would change your co2 gas bottle out at a different source and see if that helps. How are you cleaning your kegs " pbw or ??" How are you sanitizing your kegs " star san or ??. Why the addition of so many brewing salts. I would brew a batch with the local tap water, run it through a in line water filter and a RV hose so no "rubber hose" off flavors will be added. Both can be picked up at a local rv dealer or walmart. What this does is give you a baseline as to were to start with the addition of brewing salts if any are needed. Where I live ( Northern Az) I have never added anything to my water and have been brewing for 5 years with no issues and making great beers. Obviously water is different everywhere. Try it and see if that's the case.

 

[Brewligan]

If your getting your co2 from a welding store MAKE sure its not a blended argon/ co2 mix. I would change your co2 gas bottle out at a different source and see if that helps. How are you cleaning your kegs " pbw or ??" How are you sanitizing your kegs " star san or ??. Why the addition of so many brewing salts. I would brew a batch with the local tap water, run it through a in line water filter and a RV hose so no "rubber hose" off flavors will be added. Both can be picked up at a local rv dealer or walmart. What this does is give you a baseline as to were to start with the addition of brewing salts if any are needed. Where I live ( Northern Az) I have never added anything to my water and have been brewing for 5 years with no issues and making great beers. Obviously water is different everywhere. Try it and see if that's the case.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

What about your CO2 manifold (if you have one) or regulator? I have seen beer over carb or lines get reversed/clogged which caused beer to force it's way back up into a manifold and regulator that caused all kinds of funky problems in kegs.

 

[LovesIPA]

I think this has been argued enough at this point. I go back to my previous post and say, bottle the next batch. That will clearly define if its ingredients/water/process or if it's keg/gas/etc.

I did say that I was going to bottle the next batch.

Sorry, it can't NOT be every single potential thing that people mentioned. Do you want to get it fixed or not? It's time to open your mind to what it MIGHT be instead of what you're absolutely certain it's NOT.

This was one of the reasons I started the thread - obviously, I was overlooking something. Some suggestions are plausible but others are not. I won't waste my time with the more absurd suggestions.

You have given us zero description of your carbing process...it's force carbed, we know that, but do you set and forget? What's your storage/serving temp? Are you shaking it?

No shaking. I only have a single regulator, so I have to carb and serve on the same equipment. While a beer is carbonating, I set it at about 25 psi. If I have a keg that's already carbonated, I'll turn the valve off at the manifold for that keg before cranking up the pressure. I'll check it a couple of times while it's carbing, and when it's done it doesn't see any pressure over 12 psi, which is what I serve at.

The keezer is set at about 42*.

It's either your kegs or carbonic bite is my guess, but you've already said you're certain it's NOT those things...so I guess you're on your own.

I never said I was certain it's not the kegs. About the only thing that's left is the keg sanitation. I already said I was going to use PBW and hot water going forward, so I don't get the "you're on your own" attitude.

Not a perfect answer, but I think it is worth considering.

Ok, now you're on to something. Every batch I've made with a starter has turned on me. I've made two batches out of the last ten with re-hydrated yeast and those are the only two that have been drinkable.

So I need to look at my yeast practices I guess. I slant and follow the guide in the "yeast slanting" thread, so I'm not sure where I'm going wrong.

I've got to agree with others here and say bottle a batch and see what happens.

I will bottle the next batch.

FWIW - the undersides (inside the keg) of the in/out posts tend to be under cleaned and/or under sanitized. Those little nooks and crannies are hard to clean thoroughly. It's even harder to remember to clean them. You may be harboring a stinky critter in there.

I saw an interesting technique for cleaning kegs on youtube. Fill the keg halfway with cleaner, and then put a homer bucket upside down over the top. Flip both bucket and keg over, and the entire top half of the keg gets cleaned.

Even if it's not keg sanitation, I'm going to start soaking them this way from now on.

If your getting your co2 from a welding store MAKE sure its not a blended argon/ co2 mix. I would change your co2 gas bottle out at a different source and see if that helps.

The first bottle I got from a LHBS. Subsequent refills have been at one of two welding shops, one more than the other. The less-often used welding shop gave me a cylinder that was contaminated. It made the beer taste REALLY bad, and I could even smell the taint coming right out of the CO2 bottle. The other one I'm pretty sure is pure CO2. I've had conversations with the guy about brewing, and he deals extensively with breweries and wineries so I would have to assume he's not selling me something that will ruin beer. But it is worth checking.

How are you cleaning your kegs " pbw or ??" How are you sanitizing your kegs " star san or ??. Why the addition of so many brewing salts. I would brew a batch with the local tap water, run it through a in line water filter and a RV hose so no "rubber hose" off flavors will be added. Both can be picked up at a local rv dealer or walmart. What this does is give you a baseline as to were to start with the addition of brewing salts if any are needed. Where I live ( Northern Az) I have never added anything to my water and have been brewing for 5 years with no issues and making great beers. Obviously water is different everywhere. Try it and see if that's the case.

I tried brewing beer with tap water. Dark beers came out fine, but anything lighter than a dark amber ale did not taste right at all. That's why I started researching water chemistry.

What about your CO2 manifold (if you have one) or regulator? I have seen beer over carb or lines get reversed/clogged which caused beer to force it's way back up into a manifold and regulator that caused all kinds of funky problems in kegs.

I did have a backup once. I cleaned the regulator but not the manifold. Another idea worth a shot, thank you.

 

[FatDragon]

This was one of the reasons I started the thread - obviously, I was overlooking something. Some suggestions are plausible but others are not. I won't waste my time with the more absurd suggestions.

While you might consider some suggestions unlikely given what you know, calling other people's well-intentioned free advice "absurd" might be a bit offensive to those who are trying to help you.

Ok, now you're on to something. Every batch I've made with a starter has turned on me. I've made two batches out of the last ten with re-hydrated yeast and those are the only two that have been drinkable.

So I need to look at my yeast practices I guess. I slant and follow the guide in the "yeast slanting" thread, so I'm not sure where I'm going wrong.

If you've had drinkable beer with rehydrated yeast and bad beer with slanted yeast, maybe something went wrong with your last batch of slants and you've been using infected yeast the whole time. And if you're reslanting from a bad batch, it's not gonna get any better until you start again from step one.

The first bottle I got from a LHBS. Subsequent refills have been at one of two welding shops, one more than the other. The less-often used welding shop gave me a cylinder that was contaminated. It made the beer taste REALLY bad, and I could even smell the taint coming right out of the CO2 bottle. The other one I'm pretty sure is pure CO2. I've had conversations with the guy about brewing, and he deals extensively with breweries and wineries so I would have to assume he's not selling me something that will ruin beer. But it is worth checking.

Why not try getting a bottle from the LHBS again just to be sure? Even if it may be unlikely that your CO2 source is the issue, it wouldn't hurt to eliminate one variable.

You keep mentioning that the beer tastes good out of the fermenter and bad out of the keg. Aside from questioning your keg and CO2, have you considered that the bad flavors might be present the whole time, but only become apparent when carbonated? My last batch tasted good out of the fermenter but has some undesirable flavors that came on strong with the carbonation.

One final long shot:

Is it possible that your temperature control is broken or poorly-calibrated so you're actually fermenting at higher temperatures than you intend?

Best of luck. If all else fails, open a bakery and make copious amounts of beer bread!

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Oxiclean aint the problem. I used nothing but sodium petcarbonate to clean and sanitize for 7 years. And i dont rinse for 8 min either.

To whoever was alleging its not food dafe. Its usef to clean tripe do yes it is.

Cloromine cant be filterd with a simple carbon filter nor will it boil off. You can get rid of it with campden tablets or a really expensive filter.

OP maybe i missed it but how much iron is in your water?

Co2 isnt very reactive but carbonic acid is. Mettalic taste WILL be more pronounced once carbonated.

 

[chickypad]

Ok, now you're on to something. Every batch I've made with a starter has turned on me. I've made two batches out of the last ten with re-hydrated yeast and those are the only two that have been drinkable.

This stands out to me. These 2 batches were kegged in the same kegs where you've been finding the off flavors and carbonated with the same CO2 source?

 

[Hanso]

I cant believe this thread is still going.

 

[IslandLizard]

You said the taste is "metallic." Is there a way you can have a few other independent beer drinkers confirm that. Perhaps a brewclub? Or a BJCP judge?

As mentioned before, carbonic acid has a metallic taste. You sure it's not that?

I find Starsan by itself has a slight metallic taste too, but I don't trace it in my beer.
What kind of chiller are you using? Do you soak it in Starsan for long lengths of time?

I've noticed a distinct metallic scent after soaking my plate chiller, or any other metallic objects (brass or copper) in Starsan for a few days. The phosphoric acid will slowly dissolve those metals, plus there is galvanic action between copper and stainless. So I'll stop doing that, unless I want to shine my brass.

For example I left my plate chiller filled with Starsan for a week, and that metallic odor is still there, even after thorough rinsing. I'll give it a PBW treatment again to see if that helps. And maybe the oven again.