I'm getting impatient with a lager fermentation-WLP800. How long is this going to take to attenuate?

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BitterSweetBrews

Tim Trabold
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I brewed on Sunday, May 6th during a Club teach a friend to homebrew / AHA Big Brew Day event. We brewed two beers, the AHA suggested Charlie Papasian - Rocky Racoon Honey Lager and a Pre-Prohibition Lager. I have 5 gallons of each.

I made a 2 quart starter of White WLP800 Pilsner Yeast from a pack that expired on May 10th. The starter was going fine on the stir plate for 3 days before pitching. On Sunday night, I pitched half of the starter in each Beer. According to the White Labs package it says that for 10 gallons of 1.065 wort you need one package and a 2 liter starter. I figured 2 quarts was close enough. The Honey lager was at 1.050 and the pre-prohibition lager was at 1.065. On Sunday night after pitching the first yeast I thought twice about the volume and decided to make a pint starter out of another pack of the same yeast and some yeast nutrient. I pitched half of it into each fermenter on Monday night, 24 hours later. It had already started to bubble in both fermenters.

I started fermentation at 60F degrees for 12 hours then lowered it to 55F, then to where it is now at 53F. Ideal temp for the yeast is between 50F and 55F degrees.

The beer has now been fermenting for 9 days. The Racoon has gone from 1.050 to 1.028 (42% attenuation). It went down .002 points in the last two days. The Pre-Prohibition has gone from 1.065 to 1.035 (43.8% attenuation). It went down .007 points in the last 2 days. BeerSmith predicts FG of 1.005 and 1.012 respectively.

So, is this normal for this yeast? I realize and am fully aware that 9 days is not a real long time for a lager, but usually they seem to attenuate a bit faster. Should I swirl the fermenters to rouse the yeast? Since both beers are attenuating at about the same rate am I just being paranoid?

I planned on raising the temp once it hits 50% attenuation, per the Brulosophy Quick Lager Method, for a diacetyl cleanup. I would like to get these into kegs before June 1st, when we have a party.
 
Look up "Tasties method" you can finish in 10 days IF you pitched the right amount of yeast.

In outline, after 5 or so days ( it actually depends on attenuation not time) you start to raise the temperature slowly day by day to 18°C to end the fermentation quickly.


Aamcle


.
 
Because the yeast is so old you probably under-pitched a bit there. Thats going to slow your fermentation a bit. Hopefully it'll still be good.

If the racoon started at 1.050 and is predicted to go to 1.006 thats a .044 of fermentation, you are at 1.028 so half way there. You are over half way on the bigger beer. I'd start slowly ramping up temps as aamcle suggested. Have a read here http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/ That should speed up the finish of your fermentation.
 
My Pre Prohibition lager took almost 3 weeks at 50F, but I was using WLP840 American lager yeast. SG was 1.064, finished at 1.009
 
Interesting info. I have been using White's temperature recommendations of 50-55F. Interesting to find this is a lager yeast.

I just looked at the yeast package and it was manufactured 11/6/17 with a best used by date of 5/5/18. I used it one day past date, but started it 2 days before. It might be a tad underpitched, but I doubt it. The first starter was 3 days in and had plenty of time to finish at room temp. With the second pitch it was a day in and probably split 3-4 times in the 24 hours it was on the stirplate. White Labs recommends at least 12-18 hours on a stirplate with a starter and they say you can pitch after 18 hours. Since I used 2 packs and an almost 3 liter starter between the two one day apart pitches, I think I may have overpitching by over 50% based on their recommendations (overpitching is always OK). I do not detect any off flavors.

I planned on using the Brulosophy quick lager method. I will compare it to "Tasties Method". I bet they are very similar. I seem to recall the Brulosophy article saying he had got the initial method elsewhere.

I think I will start slowly ramping up the temp in a few days.

Thanks,
Cheers!
 
I am also using wlp800 in a steam beer recipe that I brewed at my lhbs on 5-5-18. I made a 2L starter and it got to work inside of 20 hours after pitching. It is still going on day 11 but less aggressively than it did last week. I have a thick krausen and am beginning to ramp up the temp from 55° to clean it up for bottling in the next week or so.

Sounds like our beers are twins from different mothers!
 
I think you underpitched. You took a single pack and made a 2-liter starter, though it isn't clear what you ended up with. You took a pack of yeast at the end of its 6-month "best by" time period, then made a 2-liter starter and split that between two batches--so you ended up with half of what normally would be the recommended pitch for a lager.

Setting aside the pitching an ale yeast and then using lagering temps--which is partly why it's slow, IMO--you could do the accelerated fermentation schedule. I use the brulosophy one, and it works very well. Attenuate to about 50 percent remaining, then bump up 4 degrees every 12 hours until you hit 66 degrees, then let it finish there.

I just did a pilsner using a variation of that, and it's nice, very nice. No off flavors, and it's only about 11 days from fermentation.

Anyway, good luck. It'll be beer. Ramp it up slowly now to 66 degrees or so and it should finish. You might shake the fermenter a bit to rouse the yeast as you do this.
 
I think you may have underpitched. Last time I used that yeast I did a 10 litre starter in a 12 gallon batch aerated with pure 02 and it was done in 6 days. When I first started brewing I tried a lager and definitely underpitched and did not aerate and fermentation stuck at appx 1.030 and never got any lower
 
I am also using wlp800 in a steam beer recipe that I brewed at my lhbs on 5-5-18. I made a 2L starter and it got to work inside of 20 hours after pitching. It is still going on day 11 but less aggressively than it did last week. I have a thick krausen and am beginning to ramp up the temp from 55° to clean it up for bottling in the next week or so.

Sounds like our beers are twins from different mothers!
It is good to hear someone with a similar story. If as others have said if it is a lager yeast, then we are making it go real low and slow. They should be great BBQ beers.

I am on the fence on whether I radically under-pitched. I have in the past and regretted it. This is totally different. Time and taste will tell. I know anecdotal rule of thumb is that you need a real large starter for a lager. Now that I am told this is an ale yeast in lager clothes, I could be just fine.

I have always wondered why the yeast manufacturers don't recommend more yeast for a lager in any of their instructions. White labs does say that a 4 liter starter for 10 gallons cold pitched with one pack within the dates is appropriate. I used two packs in a 3 liter starter. I have attached their chart. They also specifically mention the SG. Anyway I figured a 2 pack / 3 liter total starter for 10 gallons would be OK (so a 1 pack / 1.5 liter starter each). Especially on the one that started at 1.050.

I haven't detected any off flavors (or diacetyl). I think I will let it ride a couple days before shaking it a bit and ramping up the temp to clean them up over a few days.

At this point I am going to RDWHAHB.
 

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It is good to hear someone with a similar story. If as others have said if it is a lager yeast, then we are making it go real low and slow. They should be great BBQ beers.

I think you meant ale yeast?

I am on the fence on whether I radically under-pitched. I have in the past and regretted it. This is totally different. Time and taste will tell. I know anecdotal rule of thumb is that you need a real large starter for a lager. Now that I am told this is an ale yeast in lager clothes, I could be just fine.

You either underpitched a lager yeast, or fermented an ale yeast at too cold a temperature. I'm thinking more the second than the first, if it's an ale yeast you used.


I have always wondered why the yeast manufacturers don't recommend more yeast for a lager in any of their instructions. White labs does say that a 4 liter starter for 10 gallons cold pitched with one pack within the dates is appropriate. I used two packs in a 3 liter starter. I have attached their chart. They also specifically mention the SG. Anyway I figured a 2 pack / 3 liter total starter for 10 gallons would be OK (so a 1 pack / 1.5 liter starter each). Especially on the one that started at 1.050.

I haven't detected any off flavors (or diacetyl). I think I will let it ride a couple days before shaking it a bit and ramping up the temp to clean them up over a few days.

At this point I am going to RDWHAHB.

I think there are many ways to kill a cat, and the yeast manufacturers don't know what size batch nor the temp you'll ferment it at, nor the composition of the wort.

I do my lager starters in a very odd way compared to most people. I use oxygen to aerate my starter wort, add a pinch of yeast nutrient, put on a stir plate for 12-18 hours (usually about 16-18), then I pitch that entire 1-liter starter into wort that is the same temp as the starter--usually about 70 degrees. Then I let that fermenter sit at that temp for 5 or 6 hours, then start it cooling to 50 degrees.

Even though that looks like an underpitch, by pitching that starter into warm wort at an active time, I get another doubling of yeast before it drops down too far in temp. I have great results with this.

Your splitting of the starter could have worked if it were pitched into warm wort and held there for enough time for the yeast to get going again.
 
It is good to hear someone with a similar story. If as others have said if it is a lager yeast, then we are making it go real low and slow. They should be great BBQ beers.

I am on the fence on whether I radically under-pitched. I have in the past and regretted it. This is totally different. Time and taste will tell. I know anecdotal rule of thumb is that you need a real large starter for a lager. Now that I am told this is an ale yeast in lager clothes, I could be just fine.

I have always wondered why the yeast manufacturers don't recommend more yeast for a lager in any of their instructions. White labs does say that a 4 liter starter for 10 gallons cold pitched with one pack within the dates is appropriate. I used two packs in a 3 liter starter. I have attached their chart. They also specifically mention the SG. Anyway I figured a 2 pack / 3 liter total starter for 10 gallons would be OK (so a 1 pack / 1.5 liter starter each). Especially on the one that started at 1.050.

I haven't detected any off flavors (or diacetyl). I think I will let it ride a couple days before shaking it a bit and ramping up the temp to clean them up over a few days.

At this point I am going to RDWHAHB.
What gravity are your starters? I don't comprehend the volume recommendation in this chart for starters. I was under the impression that yeast starters should be constructed based on a goal of not overstraining the yeast, of achieving a specific cell count, on the viability of the yeast slant or pouch being utilized, and on the volume of the liquid that will be used in the starter. I always use a 5L Erlenmeyer with 4L of tap water and a pinch of yeast nutrient, but the amount of DME is always different based on the projected gravity of the beer I intend to brew and the age of the yeast packet.
 
What gravity are your starters? I don't comprehend the volume recommendation in this chart for starters. I was under the impression that yeast starters should be constructed based on a goal of not overstraining the yeast, of achieving a specific cell count, on the viability of the yeast slant or pouch being utilized, and on the volume of the liquid that will be used in the starter. I always use a 5L Erlenmeyer with 4L of tap water and a pinch of yeast nutrient, but the amount of DME is always different based on the projected gravity of the beer I intend to brew and the age of the yeast packet.
For instance on the starter I did today I used 3 oz DME in 4L with a yeast a little more than a month old with the goal of propagating approximately 200 billion cells. I use the Brewer's Friend yeast starter calculator.
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For instance on the starter I did today I used 3 oz DME in 4L with a yeast a little more than a month old with the goal of propagating approximately 200 billion cells. I use the Brewer's Friend yeast starter calculator. View attachment 570462View attachment 570463View attachment 570464
Interesting I've never heard of doing it that way. I've always gone with the 3.5 ounces of dme per litre. I always do a 2 step starter if using wyeast/white labs with the 1st step being 1litres and the 2nd step anywhere from 2-5 litres or for a lager a 3rd step of 2-5 litres. This is always starting with 1 smack pack and 12-18 gallon finished batch size. I try to buy imperial yeast when possible and then skip the 1st step as the imperial packs are double the cell count to start
 
Interesting I've never heard of doing it that way. I've always gone with the 3.5 ounces of dme per litre. I always do a 2 step starter if using wyeast/white labs with the 1st step being 1litres and the 2nd step anywhere from 2-5 litres or for a lager a 3rd step of 2-5 litres. This is always starting with 1 smack pack and 12-18 gallon finished batch size. I try to buy imperial yeast when possible and then skip the 1st step as the imperial packs are double the cell count to start

The starter wort I used was some 1.040 wort I had canned a month or so ago. I did some experimentation and found that I could use 1/2 cup LDME to a quart of water and consistently get a 1.040 wort after pressure canning. I documented this in a video.



I haven't tested my batches in a couple days but plan on starting to ramp up the temp Tomorrow or Saturday.
 
My starters are about 1.040 too but much larger sized. For 10 gallons I would have used 3 liters for a ale or 6+8 for a lager yeast
 
My starters are about 1.040 too but much larger sized. For 10 gallons I would have used 3 liters for a ale or 6+8 for a lager yeast

Maybe next time. I did go by what White Labs said. It is still attenuating very slowly, going down .004 pts in 3 days. I shook it and raised the temp about 8 degrees over the weekend to 60F. I am going to let it ride for a while.
 
Latest lager I did was 3 smacks about a month old in a 3.5L starter which I let go for three days, crashed for two, decanted then did a vitality starter day of. And I hope it’s enough

You way underpitched.
 
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