I'm Done with Thiolized Yeast

[RCope]

I brew frequently and like to try new things, most of which I read about here. I've brewed 4 beers with Cosmic Punch, one with Lunar Crush, and one with Star Party. They were/are all drinkable but have that one flavor that I've come to recognize as that overripe fruit (peach?) flavor. At first, I thought that "this is interesting, I think it's cool", but no longer. That one note overwhelms the more interesting hop combos that I like to try.

I've done the mash hops, tried Phantasm a few times, and played with hopping rates (for Cosmic Punch), but all the beers are just "meh". None of those beers make it in to my "To Brew Again" folder. But just make it into my "A Good Beer" folder. I guess I should be happy they didn't end up in my "Kicked" folder.

Anyways, to quote Aaron Lewis: "Am I the only one?"I don't want to discourage others from trying it out for themselves. And, to be honest, most of my friends loved the beers, but they'll drink any and all the beer I brew .

 

[day_trippr]

Back when the "Conan" yeast strain was the rage I ran a batch on the cold side with it and experienced an overripe peach character that left me wondering why I had not heard of that possibility and considering maybe I literally was the first person to ever run that strain cold. What I hadn't considered is that maybe people liked that character...

Cheers! [shrug]

 

[CascadesBrewer]

@RCope: What hops did you use in your batches?

I might agree with you after one batch with Helio Gazer. I scaled back my gravity and hop levels from what I would do for a NEIPA to target a 1.060 beer with 4 oz in the Whirlpool and 4 oz in the Dry Hop (50/50 Citra and Centennial). I also added 4 oz of Cascade in the mash.

Overall, that "thiol" flavor is very dominant. I have a hard time describing it. Maybe it is a bit of a Pasion Fruit vibe. Maybe it is a touch of body odor vibe. The beer feels like I added a bunch of New Zealand hops, but I think I would get a more rounded thiol flavor if it came from the hops. In general, that one thiol note stands out and there is not enough of a hoppy canvas to support it.

I recall seeing some info about using hops like Chinook and Bravo to add in flavors that are not created by the yeast (I forget exactly which hops were recommended). I went with Citra and Centennial because I though they might provide a decent hop background.

I have some Helio Gazer that I harvested from my starter. If I used it again I would drop the Cascade mash hops (I doubt they are needed, and the batch is a bit too bitter). I don't know if I would load up on typical American NEIPA hops, switch over to New Zealand hops, or use a different strategy. Or maybe just dump the harvested Helio Gazer.

 

[RCope]

@CascadesBrewer My most recent NEIPA with Cosmic punch used Citra, El Dorado, Vic Secret, and Cascade mash hops and 100 gms of Phantasm. Probably overdid the available thiols. Another was just Citra and Mosaic, with Saaz mash hops. A third was Galaxy, Sultana, Zappa and Citra. The fourth was Ekuanot, Enigma and Rakau. All of those were with Cosmic Punch. Those were the dry hops, there was some hotside as well. They all tasted the same...

 

[Franktalk]

I am done with NEIPAs in general! I'm not even going to go the thiol route. It seems that we are simply "chasing the dragon," looking to recreate the first buzz we got from our first NEIPA. I know that I am ranting, but this is a negative post, and I thought I would take advantage and express my feelings about the style itself.

 

[Bobby_M]

My main complaint about all the thiol rich beers I've brewed and experienced from other brewers is that the aroma component sets up some expectations that the flavor doesn't deliver. The flavor comes across as "dank" to me, even when the hop selection normally wouldn't bring that. I'm not completely done with it, but I won't revisit for several more batches.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I read an article this morning that indicated some hops are better used with thiolized yeast strains than others...

https://www.hopculture.com/top-hops-for-thiols/
Cheers!

 

[rmchair]

I still like an old fashioned west coast as well. I had to stop drinking for 6 months and my palate sorta went back to normal. Also was drinking a NEIPA with a buddy and he mentioned, some of these have a note of mouth vomit. Cant get that out of my head now.

 

[SanPancho]

the problem is that the research hasnt caught up enough to let us know what input creates which output. i consistently get the 3mh passion and maybe a touch of citrus. i also use the same base malt, same saaz/cascade mash hops. so not surprising its pretty constant.

switched to golden promise for base. ran out of saaz and swapped mandarina. no real difference. until you can start to correlate which input creates which thiol output we're likely just experimenting blindly. i'd be happy to get the peachy flavors if i meant i could mix them with the passion or citrus. but i've never gotten currant. never prominent citrus. never stone fruit....

that said, the passion has consistently been the one people request the most and is now on double-batch rotation. its not about the flavor per se, its the context.

 

[ShaneB]

Thiolized neipa tastes like dirty gym sock for me

 

[mashpaddled]

Back when the "Conan" yeast strain was the rage I ran a batch on the cold side with it and experienced an overripe peach character that left me wondering why I had not heard of that possibility and considering maybe I literally was the first person to ever run that strain cold. What I hadn't considered is that maybe people liked that character...

Cheers! [shrug]

Many English and English-derived strains (like Conan or the many Chico variants) can throw various amounts of peach esters especially when fermented on the cool side.

 

[easttex]

On the flip side, thus thread is a good data point if someone wanted to brew a peach beer. The ripe peach flavor might complement peach puree.

 

[BrewerofBeers]

I've had the feeling that thiolized yeasts shine in areas where those thiols are not occuring so abundantly, NEIPA being the prime example. In other words, my guess is NEIPA's and their methodologies are too much with thiolized yeast, and therefore no good. I would never try a thiolized yeast with Phantasm powder unless someone dared me. I tried Lunar Crush in a lager. It was tasty; got great reviews and people comments were, "Yum. Kind of fruity." Definitely had lager qualities with something more in there.
The Star Party, on the other hand, is a different beast. I tried it in an English Ale recipe, a split batch mind you, and it's a great beer. It's mysterious, and it begs for an addition of perhaps vanilla sticks, cocao nibs, and something else to accentuate the dark and hard-to-place character that seemed like it came from months of aging, but did not. You would NOT know it was the same beer if it had an english yeast, I'm tellin ya.

 

[MehNahMehNah]

Reviving this thread because I was searching for 'why' my experience is similar: brewed an IPA with the goal of a fruity tropical 6% hot weather treat. Whole cone cascade in the mash 2 Oz with ascorbic acid, 60/40 viking pilsner zero/pale ale 2 row, a touch of white wheat and some honey (viking euro sweet) malt for color. Mash ph was 5.2 and no boil hops, just a bit of amarillo 1.3oz 2 Oz citra 1.3 of El dorado and 1.6 mosaic in the whirlpool. 2.5 Oz phantasm powder since it was my first use and Vossa Nova thiolized kveik. Lots of nutrient. Fermented in the high 90's and once the krausen fell (took almost five days) dry hopped with 2 Oz Bru-1 lupomax and 2 Oz lupomax mosaic with another Oz of regular t90 mosaic. Kegged carbed and chilled after three (or was it four? days -I swirled the All-Rounder a couple times to get the hops to mix in) and was hoping for a big fruity beer - the dominant flavor is fresh grapefruit with that overripe peach thing chasing it. I used brewtan b because I have it and skipped the irish moss. I'm not unhappy with the beer, it's not quite what I expected but thought the peach note was worth echoing.

I have about a pound of peach wood smoked malt and emerald spire hops i may try this again.

Edit to add: Freestyle Hops has developed a variety they call Peacharine (can homebrewers get these in the US?) and there have been a few beers from notable breweries using them. Then there are sours (not sure how phantasm would play here) and the prospect of a Brett beer or two?

Getting far afield here with all the peach references. If you want peach flavor, look up abstrax hops products. I believe they were featured on the 420th craft beer and brewing magazine podcast.

I just don't do a lot of extreme novelty beers to get super engrossed in them - someone's gotta drink it.

 

[SanPancho]

Reviving this thread because I was searching for 'why' my experience is similar: brewed an IPA with the goal of a fruity tropical 6% hot weather treat. Whole cone cascade in the mash 2 Oz with ascorbic acid, 60/40 viking pilsner zero/pale ale 2 row, a touch of white wheat and some honey (viking euro sweet) malt for color. Mash ph was 5.2 and no boil hops, just a bit of amarillo 1.3oz 2 Oz citra 1.3 of El dorado and 1.6 mosaic in the whirlpool. 2.5 Oz phantasm powder since it was my first use and Vossa Nova thiolized kveik. Lots of nutrient. Fermented in the high 90's and once the krausen fell (took almost five days) dry hopped with 2 Oz Bru-1 lupomax and 2 Oz lupomax mosaic with another Oz of regular t90 mosaic. Kegged carbed and chilled after three (or was it four? days -I swirled the All-Rounder a couple times to get the hops to mix in) and was hoping for a big fruity beer - the dominant flavor is fresh grapefruit with that overripe peach thing chasing it. I used brewtan b because I have it and skipped the irish moss. I'm not unhappy with the beer, it's not quite what I expected but thought the peach note was worth echoing.

I have about a pound of peach wood smoked malt and emerald spire hops i may try this again.

i would be surprised if you got any predominant thiol flavors. its well-discussed that dumping alot of hops seems to bind them up or pull them out. and one thing i was told by Omega is that you dont want to let them blow off either, and kveik at 90F seems like a volcano in my experience.
based on your notes, sounds like cascade and amarillo stuck around the most (citrus) and then maybe some peachy stuff (kveik?)

havent tried the vossa nova yet, you think its a good profile? or is the overripe part of the peach character weird?

 

[mschoeffler]

I just finished a Star Party, Alora and Phantasm Rouge IPA that is fantastic. It was done “by the book” and has great citrus/passion fruit flavors and aroma. I hope that these strains resurface soon.

 

[MehNahMehNah]

i would be surprised if you got any predominant thiol flavors. its well-discussed that dumping alot of hops seems to bind them up or pull them out. and one thing i was told by Omega is that you dont want to let them blow off either, and kveik at 90F seems like a volcano in my experience.
based on your notes, sounds like cascade and amarillo stuck around the most (citrus) and then maybe some peachy stuff (kveik?)

havent tried the vossa nova yet, you think its a good profile? or is the overripe part of the peach character weird?

I think the amarillo pushed the grapefruit into the forefront, and I spunded the beer after the dry hop - used a hop bong purged with CO2. I've been focusing in limiting oxygen beyond pitching yeast and feel my beers have been better longer in the keg.

It's the peach note that comes up in threads like this that make me think it's the phantasm at play. While the Vossa Nova is a genetically modified Voss kveik I've not tasted the over-ripe peach in any of my previous kveik beers - and I use kveik a lot in summer months.

 

[MehNahMehNah]

Quick follow up: my brew was a 6.5 gallon Nuevo West Coast IPA if I could call it that - a gallon went into a one gallon mini keg to share with some San Diego transplants and the rest is waiting for a spot to open up on the kegerator. Neighbors have been away and work or other obligations have slowed me. By the time the gallon keg went dry the peach was fading along with the hop burn - i haven't used any aldc treatments or extra O2 mitigation beyond the mechanical ones (thinking SMB if Icould figure out how to dose.). The grapefruit still prominent with some tropical moving up so I can't wait to tap the 5 gallon keg.

Enter now the Cellarscience Tropic Thunder additive (?). I'm just making more expensive IPAs as this goes on in the future but they are really enjoyable in the late afternoon after a day where the heat index was around 110°.