I'm about to give up.

[Snuffy]

i meant to ask earlier, are you bottling or kegging? Try bottling some and then do the swirl and pour to get the dregs. If there’s banana in there, it could be simply lying on the bottom.
I couldn’t make myself comb back thru the entire thread to see if anyone had suggested this already so...

 

[Jayjay1976]

i meant to ask earlier, are you bottling or kegging? Try bottling some and then do the swirl and pour to get the dregs. If there’s banana in there, it could be simply lying on the bottom.
I couldn’t make myself comb back thru the entire thread to see if anyone had suggested this already so...

My first several attempts at Hefeweizen were all bottled; I started kegging early this year and since then I have kegged two weissbiers, both lacking any noticeable banana character.

I suspect that chilling the wort by recirculating through a copper counterflow chiller is doing something to my beer chemically. Maybe going through the pump a bunch of times is affecting it. I'm going to borrow an immersion chiller to rule those out.

 

[Gruel]

I have a copper loop in my fermenter, and there is plenty of banana; as I mentioned I'm trying to get away from it, by tweaking my mash profile.

Jayjay's troubles seem to be a total fluke; usually people complain about too much banana (which really is an off flavor, if you think about it; just not considered one for Weizen).
Jayjay, are you pulling our leg?
Or, option b, did you notice any change recently with your sense of smell (keyword, ahem, corona)?

 

[Jayjay1976]

I have a copper loop in my fermenter, and there is plenty of banana; as I mentioned I'm trying to get away from it, by tweaking my mash profile.

Jayjay's troubles seem to be a total fluke; usually people complain about too much banana (which really is an off flavor, if you think about it; just not considered one for Weizen).
Jayjay, are you pulling our leg?
Or, option b, did you notice any change recently with your sense of smell (keyword, ahem, corona)?

I'm as serious as a heart attack. I've been brewing for a couple of years now, more than three dozen AG batches so far and I'm at the point where I'm tightening up my techniques to eliminate any perceptible off flavors and addressing other shortcomings in my recipes. My sense of smell is fine, my brew buddies and the guys at my LHBS are all stumped as well. It's just got to be my chilling setup. I've changed every other possible variable. The only other thing I can think of would be to try fermenting in glass. I've used PET fermonsters from day one and my other beers turn out fine, just can't seem to get the banana notes in any of my beers, but especially my weissbiers.

By some weird twist of fate, my neighbor/beer drinking buddy has a doctorate in chemistry and has access to liquid chromatography equipment. I've shared my torment over the lack of isoamyl acetate in my beers and he's graciously offered to analyze samples, so I will be sure to post his findings in this thread.

Edit: the copper in your fermenter isn't the same thing as copper in my kettle

 

[beersk]

I'd be seriously surprised if it's your chilling setup. But it's an easy thing to test, so why not...

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'd be seriously surprised if it's your chilling setup. But it's an easy thing to test, so why not...

I've read elsewhere that copper in the brew kettle can cause some compounds to oxidize, maybe the precursors necessary to the formation of isoamyl acetate are being used up in that reaction?

If you have any other ideas, I'd be super glad to hear them.

 

[beersk]

I've read elsewhere that copper in the brew kettle can cause some compounds to oxidize, maybe the precursors necessary to the formation of isoamyl acetate are being used up in that reaction?

If you have any other ideas, I'd be super glad to hear them.

You could try using Brewtan B to mitigate that. It's supposed to protect against Fenton reactions (oxidation of polyphenols by the metals like copper, etc.).

 

[Gruel]

Just FYI, the slotted lauter manifold in my mash tun is also copper. It's true that I have no copper present when I'm boiling the wort.

 

[kpsalerno]

I would be surprised if an immediate, first pour, lack of character was all because of a copper chiller coming in contact with (initially) hot wort, rather than the recipe, water, ingredients or primary fermentation conditions/length being less than ideal.

Copper is the traditional material of commercial boiling kettles for many good reasons, while adding tannic acid for extended shelf life is a new abomination.

Brewtan B experiments I found online comparing beers in a blind triangle test were inconclusive in the first four months of the beer's shelf life. Obviously for an extended period precipitating haze-forming proteins out of the beer will reduce oxidation, but you can do the same thing with gelatin (though not recommended for a Hefeweizen), but who here can keep a beer sitting around in a keg more than a couple of weeks before running out?

 

[kpsalerno]

This old german cascade chiller looks like copper to me:

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Museumsbrauerei_Schmitt

 

[Jayjay1976]

This old german cascade chiller looks like copper to me:

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Museumsbrauerei_Schmitt

Interesting, the copper chiller I use is basically a miniaturized version of that cascade chiller. Does the beer flow through the pipes or down over them? Mine has only 4 tiers so it isn't very efficient and I have to recirculate the hot wort for about 45 minutes to get it down to pitching temps. The extended recirculating is what makes me suspect aeration and copper exposure as a potential source of the issues I'm having.

On a side note, in my setup the hot wort flows from top to bottom while the cooling water flows the opposite direction to maximize the temperature differential at the point of exit.

 

[Gruel]

Supposedly the wort drips down on the outside! It's not exactly low oxygen brewing...
At least that is what these guys say: Brauerei im Technikmuseum - Die Müggelland-Brauerei . It's an article about the old Schultheiss small batch pilot brewery that has been moved to a technical museum in Berlin; here is a page in english: Historical Brewery .

Your's looks like a counter flow chiller. Why is it so inefficient? Lack of turbulence?
But I think this is another red herring. When did you brew the last Weissbier that still had some banana flavor?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Your's looks like a counter flow chiller. Why is it so inefficient? Lack of turbulence?

Not nearly enough length to effectively cool 6 gallons. The other issue with this cooling method is that as the chilled beer spills back into the kettle, the temperature differential between the wort and the cooling water becomes less and less, reducing the effectiveness of the chiller. Ideally it would pass through the chiller just one time on its way to the fermenter, like a plate chiller but easier to clean out.

But I think this is another red herring. When did you brew the last Weissbier that still had some banana flavor?

I've been using this brewing setup and chiller since my first batch when I started brewing, and I have never been able to get banana esters, not in my hefeweizen nor in any of my Belgian ales, and I've tried lots of yeast strains. As stated earlier in this thread, I started out with AG BIAB and I have never brewed an extract batch. Some have suggested I brew an extract Hefeweizen kit, and I will definitely try that out soon.

 

[kpsalerno]

Interesting, the copper chiller I use is basically a miniaturized version of that cascade chiller. Does the beer flow through the pipes or down over them? Mine has only 4 tiers so it isn't very efficient and I have to recirculate the hot wort for about 45 minutes to get it down to pitching temps. The extended recirculating is what makes me suspect aeration and copper exposure as a potential source of the issues I'm having.

On a side note, in my setup the hot wort flows from top to bottom while the cooling water flows the opposite direction to maximize the temperature differential at the point of exit.

View attachment 690346

Question, if you are recirculating in a closed system essentially, where would the aeration take place? I can't see clearly from the picture where the output hose extends to, but I assume it is not just splashing back down into the pot, correct? Probably submerged or running down the side.

I would examine how you rack into the fermenter, pitching temp, what you ferment in, material wise, do you leave the co2 blanket undisturbed during fermentation, how are you controlling your fermentation temperature, have you tried leaving in the primary an extra week, how you rack into your keg, are you exposing your beer to sunlight at any point, purging the headspace in the keg before burst carbonating, etc.

The wort chilling at some point crosses over to a temperature where you want to aerate the wort before pitching anyway, so I guess I am still skeptical it is your chiller oxidizing the wort right out of the gate when it might be the yeast aren't happy enough in their ideal temp range or initial cell count (too high perhaps). I also have to say the character of my beers have improved when I started saving and repitching yeast, compared to first gen out of the package. The Hefeweizen batch I posted above was a fifth generation repitch of s-04 that had previously gone through making different styles (english bitter, stout). Seems to make better beer in subsequent batches, but you need to measure the slurry and not overpitch or you'll be stuck with the lack of fermentation character.

One more thought, I think a lot of emphasis is placed on the yeast alone in a Hefeweizen for developing characteristic aroma and flavor when I believe it also has a lot to do with a quality pale wheat malt, properly crushed. I got a very good results with s-04 after all, but I used a german malster for both my pale wheat and pils malt. I have found domestic malsters lack roundness of flavors so I just prefer imported malts. Maybe the reason 62F worked well for me was it allowed the wheat malt aroma and flavor to be prominent, aided by low IBU (10) and high chlorides in the mash water.

It would be easier to examine these things than change your brewing equipment, and you could always borrow an immersion chiller just to rule out your suspicion.

 

[BrotherDave]

Just tapped my latest in a long string of failed attempts to produce a weissbier with noticeable banana character.

Things I've tried that haven't worked:
Ferment cool
Ferment warm
Mash low
Mash high
Less wheat (<40%)
More wheat (>66%)
Wyeast 3638
Wyeast 3068
Lallemand Munich Classic
Filtered tap water
Straight RO with a bit of CaCl
Full water salts using calcs
Protein rest
No protein rest
Ferulic acid rest
Old-timey multi-step traditional mash schedule
Simple infusions at various temps
Domestic malts
Continental malts
Melanoidin malt
Noble hops
Ignoble hops
In lederhosen
In strumpfhosen
Dressed as a gnome
Dressed as a gnome + cape and elf boots
Dressed as a monk
Disguised as a monk
In possession of monk paraphernalia
In possession of monk genitalia
Wooden mash paddle
Stainless mash paddle
Listening to benedictine monks of santo domingo
Singing along with monks of santo domingo
Conference call with monks of santo domingo
Family intervention (yikes)
While playing donkey kong, both with and without a Carmen Miranda fruitbowl hat

The worst part is that my wife LOVES Hefeweizen and especially the traditional banana character. She tasted this latest one and said "maybe you just aren't cut out to brew Hefeweizen" and "I won't tell if you add banana flavoring".


HALP!

"Relax, Don’t Worry, Have a Homebrew." - Charlie Papazian

A couple of years ago I made "Hank's Hefeweizen" (using Wyeast 3068 Weinhenstephan Wheat Yeast) as a kit from Northern Brewer. To save time I used the extract kit. It had a wonderful banana character - damn close to a good German Hefeweizen - reminded me of Julius Echter Hefe Weissbier. Anywho - here's the link www.northernbrewer.com/products/hanks-hefeweizen-extract-beer-recipe-kit - they have an all grain version too. If you're bent on not using kits, I believe you might just use Wyeast 3068 & let it work 2 weeks only in the fermenter. I think going too much longer will diminish the banana character, but I base that on nothing but an old brewer's intuition.

Good luck!

 

[BarcoPerdido]

Hello Buddy, any news?
I'v got the same problem, tryed everything and it didn't work.
All tipes of yeast (including liquid yeasts that smelled banana at the time of pitching), different: aeration, temp, pitching rates, mashing, grist etc. etc.
And the more frustrating is that at the brewery where I was working we brewed banana weissbier without any problem (I have repeated the proccess at home including repitching that yeast from a brewery too - nothing).
Still don't understand what's wrong with my homebrew - it just doesn't make sense

 

[Jayjay1976]

Hello Buddy, any news?
I'v got the same problem, tryed everything and it didn't work.
All tipes of yeast (including liquid yeasts that smelled banana at the time of pitching), different: aeration, temp, pitching rates, mashing, grist etc. etc.
And the more frustrating is that at the brewery where I was working we brewed banana weissbier without any problem (I have repeated the proccess at home including repitching that yeast from a brewery too - nothing).
Still don't understand what's wrong with my homebrew - it just doesn't make sense

Not just yet. Got a new kitten on July 4 and he's been too much of a handful to get any brewing done. I'm going to brew next weekend, might try a hefeweizen extract kit. If that turns out then the problem has to be somewhere in my mashing technique.

 

[WestMichBrewer]

Cheat: post-fermentation dose of banana liqueur.
I won't tell anybody.

 

[bracconiere]

has anyone said to try using plantains in the mash? their like starchy bananas.... not sure what the gel temp is for them....

edit: NVM i see i allready said that here

 

[Jayjay1976]

Trying to pick up an immersion chiller, stay tuned.

 

[Gruel]

How did the brew go? Did the supervision by the cat help?

 

[rmchair]

Man, I spent a minute trying to get rid of banana flavors. Years ago, I used a cubicle blue container from walmart that was supposed to be a outdoors water jug but looked like a jeep gas tank. I was doing a fat tire with WY1214 (dang lhbs). I fermented in my south facing dining room which gave me 73 degrees. You could smell that banana from anywhere in the house.

Oh. No starter back then. It took a good 36 hours to get going.

 

[jlinz]

That's because the flavor isn't banana! It's bubble gum!

 

[ncbrewer]

OP: I just read a BYO article about esters. I don't know if it really addresses your question, but it might be worth a read - The Ester Family - Brew Your Own

 

[Jayjay1976]

OP: I just read a BYO article about esters. I don't know if it really addresses your question, but it might be worth a read - The Ester Family - Brew Your Own

Thanks for that!

The ester family HAHA---Aunt ester or uncle fester, I'd settle for either right now if it makes my weissbier more interesting!

 

[Jayjay1976]

Eureka! My brewer's best extract kit has yielded a gloriously authentic hefeweizen with perfectly balanced clove and banana aromas!! The kit included lallamand munich classic yeast, at room temp it delivered exactly what I've been longing for!

Also, extract brewing was easy and FUN! Williams had a sale on LME, I picked up 32 lbs just to play around with. What a great option for an easy, impromptu brew day.

Thanks everybody, time for someone to throw down a donkey because this thread is OVER!

JK. I'm still going to brew an AG batch and hit it with circus peanuts; ye olde 'Clown Pianist' is too great an idea to let die.

 

[bracconiere]

this thread is OVER!

if you really want to hit it, you'd have to say please delete/lock......otherwise you know us drunk fools will post this!




edit: but i am glad you're on your way! lol

 

[kartracer2]

@Jayjay1976 Whoo Hoo!! Glad to hear the good news. The KISS principle wins again. Best thing is it should be repeatable without worry.
Cheers!,
Joel B.

 

[ncbrewer]

Eureka! My brewer's best extract kit has yielded a gloriously authentic hefeweizen with perfectly balanced clove and banana aromas!! The kit included lallamand munich classic yeast, at room temp it delivered exactly what I've been longing for!

I've got to know - what was the beer temperature during active fermentation?

 

[Jayjay1976]

I've got to know - what was the beer temperature during active fermentation?

In the spirit of KISS I chilled the wort down to 65f and pitched the dry yeast without rehydrating then let it free rise without temp control in my laundry room at about 72-75f, it finished out in about 5 days and was kegged on day 7.

Even with so little effort the results were really good. I don't perceive any extract 'twang', but this was a pretty fresh kit produced in mid-August. I buy a lot of imported Hefeweizen and I would compare the clove-banana balance to Erdinger or Huber, a bit rounder and maltier with a floral saaz note that remind me of the fresh Weissbiers I've had in Germany.

Now if I could only recreate the aroma of fresh cream like König Ludwig Weissbier Hell...