I'll show you mine if you show me yours (pellicles)

[hornydevil]

You have SHOWN us nothing

You know this whole shitstorm started out as a suggestion to purge the headspace with CO2 when taking pics, right?

Wasn't wanting to show anyone anything. Just making a "helpful" suggestion. In my own special way, of course.

 

[preluderl]

I really think the only solution is for everyone to send me their sour home brew for a blind tasting and analysis.

 

[iamjeff6]

You know this whole shitstorm started out as a suggestion to purge the headspace with CO2 when taking pics, right?

Wasn't wanting to show anyone anything. Just making a "helpful" suggestion. In my own special way, of course.

Do you live a 100k lifestyle?

 

[Snarf1]

Corrrect, but there are some things that are constants. Like keeping oxygen away from beer.

/broken record

Actually, microxygenization is vital to the production of a deep and complex beer. So there's that.

Or we can talk about the brilliant things oxygen can do slowly over time to bottled beer.

So you're pretty, pretty wrong here.

 

[hornydevil]

What style of "sour" beer are you knocking out in 3 months?

Because I'm a glutton for punishment and I like to share information, here's an overview of how this is not only possible, but a solid, well-researched, and proven technique.

- Grist of 70/30 pils to wheat
- Single infusion mash @158F for 1 hour or until complete conversion occurs
- One hour boil with no hops. This is just for protein coagulation and volume reduction/concentration
- Cool and pitch mixed microbes. This can be sacch., brett, and LABs or just brett and LABs
- After krausen drops, fruit or move unfruited beer to secondary fermenter
- Age until stable gravity is achieved
- Package

Why this works:

- uninhibited LABs will drop your pH into the mid to low 3s in under a week, even at ambient. FWIW, pediococcus sp. and oenococcus sp. will sour your wort just as quickly as lactobacillus sp. will.
- the grist will provide for enough phenolic precursors for your brett to make your beer funky and complex, even without the hydroxycinnamic acid contribution from the hops.
- packaging quickly will prevent oxygen ingress from stimulating your brett to produce acetic acid and additional ethyl acetate, so your beer can mature in the bottle and avoid any unnecessary off flavors or aromas.

 

[hornydevil]

Actually, microxygenization is vital to the production of a deep and complex beer. So there's that.

Or we can talk about the brilliant things oxygen can do slowly over time to bottled beer.

So you're pretty, pretty wrong here.

Which compounds are "vital" in your estimation? Which microbes produce them in a semi-aerobic environment?

 

[Snarf1]

Which compounds are "vital" in your estimation? Which microbes produce them in a semi-aerobic environment?

This isn't a science quiz homie.

 

[hornydevil]

This isn't a science quiz homie.

Well, at least provide a descriptor of what kind of flavor and/or aroma contribution for which micro-oxygenation is responsible.

In the fermenter, barrel, or bottle.

 

[FTowne1]

Because I'm a glutton for punishment and I like to share information, here's an overview of how this is not only possible, but a solid, well-researched, and proven technique.

- Grist of 70/30 pils to wheat
- Single infusion mash @158F for 1 hour or until complete conversion occurs
- One hour boil with no hops. This is just for protein coagulation and volume reduction/concentration
- Cool and pitch mixed microbes. This can be sacch., brett, and LABs or just brett and LABs
- After krausen drops, fruit or move unfruited beer to secondary fermenter
- Age until stable gravity is achieved
- Package

Why this works:

- uninhibited LABs will drop your pH into the mid to low 3s in under a week, even at ambient. FWIW, pediococcus sp. and oenococcus sp. will sour your wort just as quickly as lactobacillus sp. will.
- the grist will provide for enough phenolic precursors for your brett to make your beer funky and complex, even without the hydroxycinnamic acid contribution from the hops.
- packaging quickly will prevent oxygen ingress from stimulating your brett to produce acetic acid and additional ethyl acetate, so your beer can mature in the bottle and avoid any unnecessary off flavors or aromas.

I wish that all of the major yeast suppliers would stop lying to their customers if that's the case. Why do The Yeast Bay, Omega, White Labs, and Wyeast all suggest a fermentation time of at least 6-12 months for most of their mixed cultures?

I guess you've got more knowledge and experience over any of those chumps, right?

 

[preluderl]

The Yeast Bay is a really funny name.

 

[Snarf1]

Well, at least provide a descriptor of what kind of flavor and/or aroma contribution for which micro-oxygenation is responsible.

In the fermenter, barrel, or bottle.

No, because that would be discourse, and I am not intested in discussing anything with you. I just want to express my contempt for you.

I will point out that if you claim oxygen is the enemy of beer, it is strange you would choose a wooden barrel as an aging vessel.

 

[hornydevil]

I wish that all of the major yeast suppliers would stop lying to their customers if that's the case. Why do The Yeast Bay, Omega, White Labs, and Wyeast all suggest a fermentation time of at least 6-12 months for most of their mixed cultures?

I guess you've got more knowledge and experience over any of those chumps, right?

Are they telling consumers that those cultures will take that long to ferment fully or that they will produce the aromas and flavors that they desire in that time period?

Since your end point is sensory/organoleptic with beer, how would anyone know how much fermentation is needed unless they, personally, were tasting the beer? And since everyone has different thresholds to aromatic chemicals, it's going to vary person to person. Pretty widely, in fact.

On top of that, microbes don't solely determine the aroma and flavor of the beer. The precursors in the wort and the environment of the fermentation have a great deal to do with it as well.

 

[hornydevil]

No, because that would be discourse, and I am not intested in discussing anything with you. I just want to express my contempt for you.

So you don't know. That's what I thought.

I will point out that if you claim oxygen is the enemy of beer, it is strange you would choose a wooden barrel as an aging vessel.

Because wooden barrels have a lower oxygen permeability than glass carboys do. And FAR less than plastic buckets.

 

[nanobrew1]

ugggghhhhhh can this discussion go in a different thread. More pics less words!

 

[FTowne1]

ugggghhhhhh can this discussion go in a different thread. More pics less words!

Agreed. I'm done.

 

[hornydevil]

ugggghhhhhh can this discussion go in a different thread. More pics less words!

But you guys don't like new threads. All the useful threads have already been created, right?

 

[hornydevil]

Agreed. I'm done.

What? No gif? You're slippin'.

 

[ncaudle]

Because wooden barrels have a lower oxygen permeability than glass carboys carboy bungs do

FTFY and I'm not too sure about that one either

 

[nanobrew1]

But you guys don't like new threads. All the useful threads have already been created, right?

https://www.talkbeer.com/community/threads/oxygen-effect-on-sour-brewing.38366/

 

[hornydevil]

FTFY and I'm not too sure about that one either

Page 18. "Oxygen diffusion in selected vessels"

 

[MooseLang]

Page 18. "Oxygen diffusion in selected vessels"

I will only accept the results that compare a 5,280 Gallon Wooden Foudre with a 5,280 Gallon Glass Carboy.

 

[hornydevil]

I will only accept the results that compare a 5,280 Gallon Wooden Foudre with a 5,280 Gallon Glass Carboy.

The figures are O2 per liter per year, so they are all parallel.

 

[MooseLang]

The figures are O2 per liter per year, so they are all parallel.

The smaller wooden foudre had higher o2 diffusion than the larger wooden foudre, so this is, in fact, perpendicular.

 

[ncaudle]

The figures are O2 per liter per year, so they are all parallel.

how can it be parallel when there is huge difference in surface to air ratios?

 

[hornydevil]

how can it be parallel when there is huge difference in surface to air ratios?

Because it's not about surface area of the liquid that's exposed. It's about vessel permeability. It's not like surface to volume ratios of aging on new oak, because diffusion comes from the outside, not the inside, of the vessel.

Just think, a vacuum is a vacuum, no matter the size.

 

[ncaudle]

Just think, a vacuum is a vacuum, no matter the size.

too bad we're not talking about vacuums

 

[hornydevil]

too bad we're not talking about vacuums

But we are talking about gas ingress into a vessel. A vacuum simply has zero ingress.

 

[tennispl]

Because it's not about surface area of the liquid that's exposed. It's about vessel permeability. It's not like surface to volume ratios of aging on new oak, because diffusion comes from the outside, not the inside, of the vessel.

Just think, a vacuum is a vacuum, no matter the size.

Mythbusters lifted a car with a single vacuum. It's literally all about surface area.

 

[ncaudle]

Because it's not about surface area of the liquid that's exposed. It's about vessel permeability.

I can only ask this 1 question before my brain tires...

if surface area ratio has nothing to do with it then why do smaller barrels diffuse oxygen into wort/beer faster than larger barrels?

 

[hornydevil]

Mythbusters lifted a car with a single vacuum. It's literally all about surface area.

Umm . . . those are different types of vacuums.