I uninvite myself to brew days... Do you?

[DSorenson]

I don't know everything about brewing. I'm sure you don't either. But if you're on HBT and you do a little reading you know enough. Can we agree on that?

I have a few homebrewing friends, and none of them seem to ask themselves the questions like "what does a lower water to grain mash ratio do to the beer?" or even "is it safe to put near 212 degree wort in my hydrometer tube?". Instead they are concerned with professional brewing hop techniques and (apparently) over-oaking otherwise decent stouts.

A couple of them invite me to brew days, where I watch them do things that (on the inside) drive me nuts. I get that everyone has their own way of doing things, but it just comes across as "I didn't take the time to learn this".

Example: fermenting in a carboy and then using a bucket with too much head space for secondary.

I keep offering helpful advice but at some point I started sounding like a control freak to my own ears. Probably because the helpful advice isn't really wanted. Helpful advice that isn't used can't be helpful... which just makes it advice... which is more or less an unsubstantiated opinion.

So now I drop by until I see stuff starting to happen that would drive me nuts and I take off. I effectively uninvite myself to brew days. I would rather not be there than harsh their mellow and sound like a know-it-all.

I'm very well read on and experienced in brewing beer, and it betrays me.

Anyone else have this problem?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

No. Everyone starts somewhere and has to learn what works for them. Personally, I think too many brewers are too anal with the processes and techniques and THAT is what drives me nuts. It's beer, and was brewed before people even understood what yeast is. And they drank it and it was good.

 

[dbkdev]

You sir, like me, are of a mindset that if something is worth doing, it's worth donig right. Especially if it's concerning factors inside of your budget and control. However, not everybody has this mindset. I know exactly how you feel as it translates to most things I do in life. I've often found myself over stressed/aggravated about trivial things due to this.

My advice.... either don't go if you can't get your feelings in check, or go, and just don't care about what they are brewing (unless it's your ingredients) and rdwhahb. Go not for the brewing, but to have a beer with some friends that just happen to be brewing.

 

[flars]

Same as HBT. Recipient of information can take it or leave it. On HBT you can also uninvite yourself by unsubscribing to the thread.

 

[roastquake]

I don't have that experience, but I brew solo simply because I'm there's not room for two. Another person would get in the way or just generally distract me, and I would think the same about myself going to someone else's brew day. Now if it's the drinking of homebrew I've been invited to, then I'll go

 

[Hopinista]

No. Everyone starts somewhere and has to learn what works for them. Personally, I think too many brewers are too anal with the processes and techniques and THAT is what drives me nuts. It's beer, and was brewed before people even understood what yeast is. And they drank it and it was good.

+1. Also Advice^^^

 

[masonsjax]

The friends I brew with have all been eager to improve their skills and at least appear to be very interested in hearing my advice. I'd stop offering if they felt otherwise, but I'd still go for the association. It's a hobby after all. Your friends are probably doing it as an escape, a way to relax. If they feel satisfied with the results, so be it.

 

[Hello]

Have you personally witnessed adverse effects of fermenting in a carboy and using a bucket for secondary? I ask because I have not. I do not do it because frankly, some dude on the internet said not to and said why but I can't and do not care to prove him right or wrong.

Have you drank any of their beers and found any of them enjoyable? Did you give them honest feedback of the so-called professional hop techniques and/or over-oaking of stouts? What is a professional brewing hop technique?

The thing about what you're saying is that you absolutely want to control the situation and I understand that would be hard to sit through without actually handing out sage advice on brewing. It sounds to me as though you deem yourself as a high caliper brewer, which is wonderful, and these guys/friends are novice at best. What was the reaction to your helpful advice and how was it actually delivered?

Does it honestly matter if a novice isn't sitting there asking him or herself, "what does a lower water to grain mash ratio do to the beer?" Truthfully, I don't ask myself that or any other meaningful questions while I brew. Time for reflection, for me at least, comes when I am drinking that beer or writing some notes down from brew day. I may ask whether or not putting boiling wort in a plastic test tube is a good idea but that is just me being logical and thinking that the answer is probably not. I do feel as though I possess an average-level of intelligence.

I guess the best thing to do is if no one wants to listen to you and you firmly believe the end product is not going to be worth drinking then removing yourself is best. I just sort of wonder what your technique is for the delivery of the advice and whether or not that has effectively made you the debbie downer of the crowd.

I appreciate advice when I have been given it, especially if it improves my beer or keeps me safe (boiling wort in a plastic tube). It would be hard to take advice if the advice is handed out with an iron fist and a know-it-all attitude.

 

[dobe12]

No. Everyone starts somewhere and has to learn what works for them. Personally, I think too many brewers are too anal with the processes and techniques and THAT is what drives me nuts. It's beer, and was brewed before people even understood what yeast is. And they drank it and it was good.

+2! Feel free to give some advice, but don't be overly anal about it. There isn't a wrong way and a right way to make beer. There are MANY ways. Some you may not agree with, but they still result in beer.

The owner of a LHBS in my area keeps his glass carboys sitting out in open light, fermenting at room temps all the time. I would never do this. His beer is very good. I would call a few of his beers some of the best home brew I've had.

With all due respect, it sounds like you're in your own head too much. Come out and enjoy the world with the rest of us. And if nothing else RDWHAHB!

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

I wanted to disagree when i saw the thread title but after reading your response i have to agree with you 100%

There's a difference between "learning to brew and taking advice" and "i do it my way i don't need your opinion"

IMO this hobby is all about the first statement no matter how long you've been brewing.
Ive been brewing for over 3 years now and while there are things that i say, "no im doing it this way, i prefer my method better" there are other times when i say....holy crap that's some pretty good advice.

To end this up, don't have many home brewing friends and when they do ask about my hobby they get a ear load of information and start to drift away pondering to themselves why they asked in the first place. I love what i do!!

Cheers.

 

[DSorenson]

Even the old timers had a tried and true way of accomplishing brewing. Anal is a little strong for what I'm talking about. I would use the term 'fundamental'. Single infusion, decoction, fly sparging, batch sparging, aluminum, stainless... the list goes on. These are the options, and cost certainly places restrictions on these types of things and by no means are they making or breaking a beer. These guys have a number of all grain beers under their belts, and I just figured temperature control might be something they care about.

But GilaMinumBeer is right: it's their beer, they can put yeast-associated off flavors in it if they want to. Or melt plastic and ingest it. Or use 30% cara malts. This isn't one of those "they are happy with the results" kinds of things. This is "oh, this beer has diacetyl" or "man, 4 ounces of oak chips was way too much". The fixes are simple and I hear the complaints.

Maybe I just take things too seriously. They did turn out a pretty killer imperial stout one time. I'm good friends with them and I love to drink beer with them, so perhaps I'll just use the time to watch someone else do the work and enjoy some homebrews.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I know what you're talking about, but it's become easy for me over the years. When you realize that YOU are not responsible for the final outcome when you're just a spectator, and your reputation is not at stake...AND you can actually get a little buzzed during a brewday without worrying you're going to screw up your batch...it can be quite liberating.
-
Just go celebrate beer with your friends. Drink it, lend a hand when asked, and don't give unsolicitied advice. That last bit is useful in every walk of life...not just brewing.

 

[hunter_le five]

I'm a bit of a control freak when it comes to cooking. I have my own way of doing things, and I don't like it when I see someone do something I perceive as "wrong". SWMBO doesn't even allow me in the kitchen anymore when it's her turn to cook. I don't blame her, and for her own good I don't ask her to help me when I cook. I consider myself to be a pretty good cook (after years of practice living on my own), and she's... well, let's say a "novice" (before she met me she didn't really know how to cook anything).

Given that, I could only imagine how obnoxious I would be to brew beer with. :cross: Luckily I brew solo. I'm not sure I would want to brew with those guys either. Not that there's anything wrong with them, quite the opposite, I'm just anal as hell.

hehe... anal....

Objectively, I know there's more than one way to do most things in this hobby, but in my irrational monkey brain, if you do it differently than me, you are WRONG.

 

[johngaltsmotor]

I offer input (and most times friends ASK for input, that's why they invite me to brewdays). I can't say as they've ever asked and then plain ignored it.
Plus my friends are still doing kits so the technique is enough different that I let them do what they want at times. Is their sanitation as good as mine? No, but it's sufficient that I'll drink what they brew.
If their fermentation temp under control? No, but I've never taken a drink and thought "OOHH YUM, BUTTER".

I guess I can just roll with it and focus on spending time with friends I don't get to see enough, instead of skipping the face time because of a difference in technique.

 

[Yooper]

I never say a word, unless someone actually asks my opinion.

One time I was drinking a pale ale that the brewer made, and while it was very fruity from high fermentation temperatures, it still tasted better than the stuff in the beer fridge, so I was drinking it. His brother-in-law then asked me, "How would this do in competition?" and I did answer honestly with "not very well due to not meeting style guidelines exactly, but I'm enjoying drinking it very much!"

The brewer then asked me how he can improve- but he already knew the answers (control fermentation temperature) and was really just looking for confirmation that the beer was "pretty good, but............"

Otherwise, I do not say anything at all. Not a peep.

 

[DSorenson]

Have you personally witnessed adverse effects of fermenting in a carboy and using a bucket for secondary? I ask because I have not. I do not do it because frankly, some dude on the internet said not to and said why but I can't and do not care to prove him right or wrong.

Have you drank any of their beers and found any of them enjoyable? Did you give them honest feedback of the so-called professional hop techniques and/or over-oaking of stouts? What is a professional brewing hop technique?

I personally haven't had an oxidized beer, but the logic makes sense to me. They actually went out and bought a $10 can of Argon that wine makers use to fill headspace to prevent that. I know it would take a while in a situation with too much headspace to create a problem, but with a simple fix like reversing the order, why not? Especially since their bucket has more volume than the carboy.

Yeah, professional hop techniques was a bad term for it. What I mean by that is that they read about how stone brewing hops beers and emulate it. Their next experiment is using a hop tea and carefully controlled temperatures to try to extract specific flavors from the hops, then add it to wort. I noble experiment worth trying, but a little fancy considering the other things that are missing.

I'm always polite, but perhaps your right, I'm just being a ********. And I don't think anyone's figured out a way to make a good beer with ********. That's why we use hops.

 

[LandoLincoln]

No, I don't un-invite myself to brew days, but I can see why you might want to.

 

[Hello]

LOL @ good beer with ********. I am sure you know your limits on tolerating people doing things wrong and not caring for advice. Obviously you've identified what you need to do until you can go back and enjoy your time there without feeling like you should take over. I get it, I really do. Also, I don't have anyone to brew with unless I lug my crap to a brewery once a month and actually brew with people. Even then, with the exception of the staff and a fellow HBT'er if he makes it, people rarely talk to me. /shrug I figure I am uninviting and not personable.

 

[bleme]

If you ask your friends WHY they do things, it will get them thinking about it. You can lead them to your way of thinking and if they feel like they are the one who thought of it, they will be much more receptive.

Also, hearing their "whys" might get you thinking yourself. We all have things we can learn and they don't always come from an expected source.

 

[DSorenson]

Strangely enough, I also enjoy brewing alone. Until I have children, then I will indoctrinate them with my method of brewing. Then I will swim in copious amounts of DSorenson homebrew! When I am old they will carry the gallons upon gallons of wort for me.

Things just got olde school.

 

[DSorenson]

oh, one more thing of interest:

One of them claims to have read John Palmer's book cover to cover twice.

 

[m1k3]

I've never been invited by anyone... *sob* *sob*

If anyone is in the area PM me.

 

[kombat]

It's beer, and was brewed before people even understood what yeast is. And they drank it and it was good.

Was it?

Are you sure about that?

How can we ever really know?

Do you think beer brewed in 1000 AD tasted every bit as good as, say, a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale does?

I agree that they made "beer," but I personally believe that modern beer tastes immeasurably better than whatever warm, murky, sour fusel/phenol/DMS/acetaldehyde bombs blacksmiths drank at the end of a long day of shoeing horses. There was simply nothing better available to them at the time. I think brewing has progressed immensely in the intervening centuries.

 

[Teromous]

I'm sure that I do a lot of things that would annoy other brewers. New brewers especially, because "collective opinion" on brewing techniques changes all the time. I use a secondary. I like to dump the StarSan foam out. I don't wash my laundry with the hot water that comes out of my plate chiller. I don't keep my stir paddle in a bucket of StarSan. I don't save/reuse SarSan (unless it's left over from a spray bottle). I'm probably not the most resourceful person with propane...I've tried to get the "perfect flame" but you know what, when I put that sucker on afterburner I can get a quicker boil. People are quick to spout off that a person shouldn't do something, but there are valid counter arguments and techniques.

I don't want to crap on your thread by making it seem like I'm being argumentative. I just wanted to point out that they could have a valid reason to do what they do, or that they are just set in their ways. In the end it sounds like you're doing the best thing. If you get worked up about something, step away. It's their beer after all, and if you don't have a stake in it then there's nothing for you to worry about.

 

[JBOGAN]

This is why i brew alone. When i was a kid my dads way of teaching me something was to show me first then walk away and let me finish the task alone. He would come back and inspect what i had done and ask " If you could change anything what would it be?'. Now when i brew or build or do any task i research the hell out of it, have fun and confidence in doing it and question if I need to change anything for better results. Some people can just do what you or I would deem fundamentally wrong and still produce beer. Being anal about brewing is not a bad thing if it is not hurting anyone besides yourself.

 

[JBOGAN]

Was it?

Are you sure about that?

How can we ever really know?

Do you think beer brewed in 1000 AD tasted every bit as good as, say, a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale does?

I agree that they made "beer," but I personally believe that modern beer tastes immeasurably better than whatever warm, murky, sour fusel/phenol/DMS/acetaldehyde bombs blacksmiths drank at the end of a long day of shoeing horses. There was simply nothing better available to them at the time. I think brewing has progressed immensely in the intervening centuries.

Awesome!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Was it?

Are you sure about that?

How can we ever really know?

Do you think beer brewed in 1000 AD tasted every bit as good as, say, a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale does?

I agree that they made "beer," but I personally believe that modern beer tastes immeasurably better than whatever warm, murky, sour fusel/phenol/DMS/acetaldehyde bombs blacksmiths drank at the end of a long day of shoeing horses. There was simply nothing better available to them at the time. I think brewing has progressed immensely in the intervening centuries.

To say there were no other choices is absurd. Wine has been available since biblical times. Yes, it was a better alternative to water alone biut to say there was nothing else is naive. Furthermore, there is nothing to say that the beer of yore was this disgusting, murky, unrefined product you assume.

And finally, it's societies reverence of beer that is enough proof to me that regardless of when it was brewed, or how, that it was enjoyed for what it was. There are few accounts to say that beer was equated to sewer water.

"For a quart of ale is a dish for a king" - William Shakespeare ‘A Winter’s Tale’ (1623)

"Who cares how time advances? I am drinking ale today." - Edgar Allan Poe
(1848)

"But if at church they would give some ale. And a pleasant fire our souls to regale. We’d sing and we’d pray all the live long day, Nor ever once from the church to stray." –William Blake

The last one was written prior to Blakes death in 1827. So, Kombat, tell me, which of these or the various other poetic accounts of ale convey this disgust you are so certain about?

so, wast it? yes?

Are you sure about that? Yes!

How can we ever really know? Literature.

so, was beer every bit as good then as it is today? Possibly, possibly not. But I can assure you they enjoyed it every bit as much.

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

Nah, it's fun to do a group brew, that way everyone can talk about processes with each other, compare notes, and just generally learn. If someone does something genuinely stupid... like not using crushed grain, I might object, but generally I'll only offer advice if solicited.

 

[DSorenson]

I think Kombat's general idea that palates have changed to meet with more desirable beers is a solid one. I think anyone from the old days would find a beer they liked much better today as a result of knowledge and skill refining. Then again, we also intentionally inoculate our beer with brett when we are looking for that quality. But at this point it's intentional.

 

[dobe12]

Was it?

Are you sure about that?

How can we ever really know?

There was simply nothing better available to them at the time.

You answered your own question.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Nope. I enjoy attending others' brew days. If they do something I wouldn't, I might offer advice. If they don't take it, I just give them a little Edmund Fitzgerald and move on.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I think Kombat's general idea that palates have changed to meet with more desirable beers is a solid one. I think anyone from the old days would find a beer they liked much better today as a result of knowledge and skill refining. Then again, we also intentionally inoculate our beer with brett when we are looking for that quality. But at this point it's intentional.

I would concede to say that palate have changed to meet with more varieties of beer through evolutionary changes in barley, hops, and yeast strain selectivity. But to convey that 1000 years ago palates were so unrefined that they could tolerate sh!t is absurd. I have no doubt that advances in brewing have taken beer to places that people were not able to go 1000 year ago but based solely on the numerous literary praises it was still something people yearned for.

 

[DSorenson]

I love it. I've finally started one of "those" threads.

 

[Homercidal]

I can certainly understand the OP's frustration when he sees what many here would consider BASIC best practices being dismissed out of hand.

And yet I also know that with the multitude of methods and options, new brewers can feel overwhelmed. Perhaps they are so focused on one or two matters to give much though to others. The excitement of that latest recipe might be driving them to rush into a brewday without regard for the fundamentals that will improve ANY recipe.

I've been there. I can see things that new brewers do that make me cringe a bit inside. But you know what? Maybe it will ok for them. Some people take baby steps. I am ashamed today to admit how many years I brewed without any real form of temp control. Is it better than obsessing over temp control? Maybe, maybe not.

That headspace problem *might* be a problem. Yes, obviously if the bucket were large enough to be used as a primary, it would have been BEST used at the primary. Then again, if the beer did not fill the carboy up to the neck, it hardly makes a difference for a couple of weeks of aging, unless they somehow purged the headspace with CO2.

From my point of view, this is a HOBBY. It is done for enjoyment. At the stage your friends are at, they are probably having a great time, and that is what is important. In time they will surely learn more, have the basics down and the excitement of creating the next award-wining Oak-Aged Double Bourbon Maple IPA will dwindle and a solid desire to improve their fundamental brewing techniques will set in.

I think the best thing you can do is to continue to brew with them, maybe even invite them to hang out while YOU brew, discussing why you do the things you do. If you are there when Larry, Moe, and Curly skip the aeration step before pitching yeast, just shake your head, take a drink of homebrew, and try to get over it. I think all of you will be happier in the end.

 

[TobyG]

tl;dr
Anyone else have this problem?

Nope. Half the fun of a club brew day is pointing at and mocking somebody else's recipes, techniques, etc. (in a good-natured way). We have several running jokes about 5+ step mashes due to a club brew day where somebody did a 5-step mash because that was the way they learned on their first AG batch, so they always did it. You should start suggesting 'ways to improve' and tell the guys that over-oak to keep adding MOAR OAK!! and that it's not barky enough yet since you can still taste some residual beer. But seriously, RDWHAHB.

 

[kombat]

So, Kombat, tell me, which of these or the various other poetic accounts of ale convey this disgust you are so certain about?

Permit me to draw on my old Discrete Mathematics studies and employ a rudimentary Proof by Contradiction.

If I'm wrong, then the only logical conclusion is that beer has not improved at all in several centuries, and was perfected several generations ago. None of the brewing advances in the past millennia (water treatment, mash pH, fermentation temperature control, studies of yeast health and pitch rate, fining and filtration, forced carbonation) have improved the actual flavour of the beer, but rather have been pursued purely for other motivations (such as reducing production costs or increasing batch yields of otherwise identical beer).

This is obviously false, therefore my original assertion that today's beer is superior to the beer of the middle/dark/prehistoric ages is proven.

 

[kombat]

based solely on the numerous literary praises [beer] was still something people yearned for.

Thousands and thousands of pages of prose were written praising men and women of the day (in the context of lust and passion), even though, for the most part, they had atrocious hygiene by today's standards, and generally smelled bad and were hairier (including the women, if you know what I mean).

Do you think William Shakespeare could not appreciate the superior aesthetics of Kate Upton versus Marie Antoinette?

They praised it because it was the best they had, at the time. They also thought baroque music was the peak of musical entertainment, and oil paint smeared on some canvas was the top of the art world. That doesn't mean they wouldn't soil their frilly britches if they ever saw an Ansel Adams print or watched "Avatar" in 3D.

 

[bob1852]

Example: fermenting in a carboy and then using a bucket with too much head space for secondary.

What an idiot. Everyone knows you don't need a secondary at all.

"For a quart of ale is a dish for a king" - William Shakespeare ‘A Winter’s Tale’ (1623)

"Who cares how time advances? I am drinking ale today." - Edgar Allan Poe
(1848)

"But if at church they would give some ale. And a pleasant fire our souls to regale. We’d sing and we’d pray all the live long day, Nor ever once from the church to stray." –William Blake

The last one was written prior to Blakes death in 1827. So, Kombat, tell me, which of these or the various other poetic accounts of ale convey this disgust you are so certain about?

so, wast it? yes?

Are you sure about that? Yes!

How can we ever really know? Literature.

so, was beer every bit as good then as it is today? Possibly, possibly not. But I can assure you they enjoyed it every bit as much.

You forgot:

"Beer if proof..." ~ Ben Franklin

 

[DSorenson]

Solid points Kombat, though you lost me on the old dudes lollygagging at kate upton. The idea of beauty is something that does change with time (fortunately for us: fat chicks used to be the tops), so I'm not sure if good ol' Billy would find his divining rod "over nine-thousand" over Kate Upton. Some guys like it when girls hide their ankles.

Though I'd love to hear the "Thong Song" performed in Elizabethan English.

But you are right, improvements in beer were made because of the desire for a better product, or at least by accident and then recreated for a better product.

 

[dobe12]

Permit me to draw on my old Discrete Mathematics studies and employ a rudimentary Proof by Contradiction.

If I'm wrong, then the only logical conclusion is that beer has not improved at all in several centuries, and was perfected several generations ago. None of the brewing advances in the past millennia (water treatment, mash pH, fermentation temperature control, studies of yeast health and pitch rate, fining and filtration, forced carbonation) have improved the actual flavour of the beer, but rather have been pursued purely for other motivations (such as reducing production costs or increasing batch yields of otherwise identical beer).

This is obviously false, therefore my original assertion that today's beer is superior to the beer of the middle/dark/prehistoric ages is proven.

But since they didn't know any better back then because none of these advances in brewing had happened yet, they wouldn't know what they were drinking was subpar compared to our current standards. Hence, I'm sure they enjoyed what they were drinking.

If all you had to choose from was nasty brown water that would literally make you sick and possibly kill you, bud light would taste like the heaven.