I NEED help with my efficiency

[Stauffbier]

With this setup, my efficiencies have been over 90%. This has really been screwing me up because I've been planning recipes at 80%. I'd rather have your problem.

Yeah, this must be a real burden! Haha!

You could always pull a little wort out and add water to get your beer closer to the gravity you expected. Then you wouldn't have to adjust your hops, and you could save the extra wort for starter...

 

[jcaudill]

Ya, I could have done that. That's a good call.

 

[gunmetal]

Wow what a great read this thread is. I have an all electric system with a rims tube. I do not have my own mill, so I started double crushing at my LHBS. This has made the greatest difference in my efficiency. All of you guys worried about a stuck sparge are usually not constantly recirculating like many rims or herms guys. A stuck sparge on a RIMS could add up to a good '0l scorchin'. I brewed yesterday and had to stir very frequently when I saw my return on my rims slow down. The exta fine grain and powder would stick to my false bottom. I would take a spoon and scrape the false bottom around the middle and you could see the output on the rims pick up. Well all of the stirring and recirculating really helps my efficiency. I can probably stir more than most cooler guys because my temp is maintained by my BCS. After I mash out, I let er rip and there is no varlauf necessary because I let the grain bed set up during the mashout. I use to double batch sparge, but only do a single now. I use a lot of water on the sparge, and boil off almost two gallons in my one hour boil. I have only been doing 5 gallon batches, so If i upped to 10, my boil off would not be as high, and I would have to adjust my mash and sparge volumes. My spent mash yesterday looked totally done= in other words spent, tastless grain with full extraction, covered in fine powder that went through the full recirculation. My efficiency was over 85 percent.

 

[Dilligaf76]

I'm having the same problems as the OP. The last batch I ran the grains through the LHBS mill twice and didn't see a single uncracked grain. I was actually afraid of a stuck sparge but it worked out fine. The eff was still at 65%. Ive used several thermometers when measuring the mash temps and two different hydrometers. We brewed at a buddy's house for the last batch so if water is a problem then it's a problem there too. I'll try double crush again and cut my water 50/50 with RO water from WalMart on the next one. Should I get some ph strips as well?

 

[jcaudill]

What grist/water ratio are you using?

 

[Dilligaf76]

What grist/water ratio are you using?

1.25qts per lb.

 

[jcaudill]

Try upping it. 1.5qt/lb. Perhaps you don't have enough liquid. It will also help with the stuck mash issue.

 

[Dilligaf76]

I don't stir right before the first vorlaugh or add any mash out water. I don't see how that could affect efficiency but.... could it? I make a point of tasting the grains when I'm cleaning the mash tun and they're never sweet.

 

[jcaudill]

Well it's hard for me to comment without seeing your mash - but it's quite possible you're not getting enough coverage. 1.25 in my experience has resulted in lower efficiency for me because my grain bed does not stay covered. Also - a much better way to test conversion is the iodine test.

 

[Denny]

I don't stir right before the first vorlaugh or add any mash out water. I don't see how that could affect efficiency but.... could it? I make a point of tasting the grains when I'm cleaning the mash tun and they're never sweet.

In my experience, neither of those will affect efficiency.

 

[Denny]

Well it's hard for me to comment without seeing your mash - but it's quite possible you're not getting enough coverage. 1.25 in my experience has resulted in lower efficiency for me because my grain bed does not stay covered. Also - a much better way to test conversion is the iodine test.

The best way to test is to use Kai's chart to check conversion efficiency.

 

[jcaudill]

Agreed - vorlauf is really just to clarify the wort and adding mash out water would only be if you're doing infusion mashing and need to get up to mash out temps or something.

 

[Denny]

Agreed - vorlauf is really just to clarify the wort and adding mash out water would only be if you're doing infusion mashing and need to get up to mash out temps or something.

The advantage from doing what most homebrewers call a mashout (which seldom really is) is that by raising the temp at the end of the mash you may gelatinize and convert any unconverted starch in the mash.

 

[Ztp]

Well the good thing about this thread is it has made me want to brew more to try and fix my problems, which in turn I'm getting a lot of beer... Now I just need some more carboys haha. Oh you guys are so gracious for allowing me to keep my man card haha

 

[cwi]

So on this last one, I paid a great deal of attention to my boil off, trub loss, chill loss, etc.

Essentially, because I have now reconfigured my equipment profile and what I am targeting, I had to readjust my recipes by adding a little more grain to increase OG. Once I really started playing with the software, I found it quite interesting and it was a good learning experience.

Just a heads up, BeerSmith defines efficiency as 'to the fermenter', so any trub losses actually in the equipment profile need to be accounted for by lowering your efficiency by the appropriate amount. The amount is close to what a hand calc will get you, but not exact, since BeerSmith still does not account for Trub loss correctly even when efficiency is lowered.

I have found that with BeerSmith, setting trub loss to '0', and increasing batch size to manually account for trub loss is a much easier way to standardize recipes for sharing, scaling, etc.

What you absolutely DO NOT want to do is to only increase the amount in the trub loss field, and expect BeerSmith to correctly compensate. If you do, BeerSmith will actually do something far worse. It keeps your expected OG the same, and (hidden in the small print) it magically increases your mash efficiency, sometimes above 100%, to make its numbers work with your original brewhouse eff. Mash efficiency isn't even something you can manually enter, so it isn't something you normally would be concerned with checking pre-brew.

 

[doctorRobert]

The advantage from doing what most homebrewers call a mashout (which seldom really is) is that by raising the temp at the end of the mash you may gelatinize and convert any unconverted starch in the mash.

Gelatinize? Never heard of that i thought thats what mash steps do for adjuncts. a mash out can ensure an even result from your mash as enzymatic activity will stop (not that important for a homebrewer), but more importantly it can help prevent a stuck sparge.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html


I normally dont do a mash out. Had a stuck sparge on a freakin ipa last weekend. All I did was add a little bit of boiling water, stirred, and I was back in action. I brewed a hefe right before it and I didnt have a stuck sparge even with the wheat bill (probably because of a thinner mash).

 

[cwi]

Gelatinize? Never heard of that i thought thats what mash steps do for adjuncts.

Even the starches in malt have to gelatinize to be effectively attacked by the enzymes. For adjuncts, that usually requires a hotter 'cereal mash' to heat the starches to get them to gelatinize.

a mash out can ensure an even result from your mash as enzymatic activity will stop (not that important for a homebrewer), but more importantly it can help prevent a stuck sparge.

At the homebrew scale, I see the main benefit of a mashout being stopping the enzymatic activity. Extracting extra sugars, preventing stuck sparges, or increasing flow due to the lowered viscosity of the wort on homebrew scale gear is marginal. I would have to look up the exact numbers, but the viscosity difference between 154F and 168F wort is minimal. It isn't like going from motor oil to gasoline.

I normally dont do a mash out. Had a stuck sparge on a freakin ipa last weekend. All I did was add a little bit of boiling water, stirred, and I was back in action.

The stirring, along with extra water (regardless of temp), is was what did 99.9999% of that. That, and you probably reduced your flow rate after sticking it the first time.

 

[Stauffbier]

At the homebrew scale, I see the main benefit of a mashout being stopping the enzymatic activity. Extracting extra sugars, preventing stuck sparges, or increasing flow due to the lowered viscosity of the wort on homebrew scale gear is marginal. I would have to look up the exact numbers, but the viscosity difference between 154F and 168F wort is minimal. It isn't like going from motor oil to gasoline.


.

It's the added liquid that helps change viscosity. Not the temperature, so much. That's why it helps a little with lautering. With that said, I don't get a stuck lauter, so I don't mash out. I don't care so much about stopping conversion, either...

 

[cwi]

It's the added liquid that helps change viscosity. Not the temperature, so much. That's why it helps a little with lautering. With that said, I don't get a stuck lauter, so I don't mash out. I don't care so much about stopping conversion, either...

HERMS and RIMS guys usually don't add water before lautering, but some still mash out- and claim the viscosity benefits.

At the homebrew scale, stopping conversion isn't that important unless you are going for something with a bunch of residual sugars without using steeping grains, and even then only if you lauter for an excessively long time or for some reason don't fire your kettle as soon as your first wort hits it. Still, the effects of stopping conversion are more easily obtained and utilized than the effects of mashing out on viscosity, lautering, stuck sparges, etc.- which is essentially what I said originally.

 

[Denny]

Gelatinize? Never heard of that i thought thats what mash steps do for adjuncts. a mash out can ensure an even result from your mash as enzymatic activity will stop (not that important for a homebrewer), but more importantly it can help prevent a stuck sparge.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html

I have not found that either of those are true on a homebrew scale.

 

[Ma23456]

I get 84% or better

 

[Denny]

HERMS and RIMS guys usually don't add water before lautering, but some still mash out- and claim the viscosity benefits.

Kai disproved the viscosity argument, at least to my satisfaction, by showing there are no negative effects to using room temp water to sparge.

 

[Stauffbier]

Kai disproved the viscosity argument, at least to my satisfaction, by showing there are no negative effects to using room temp water to sparge.

I agree with this. I've actually used room temp water to sparge. My lauter ran like normal, and my efficiency was also normal. The only downfall is the fact it takes longer to get my wort up to a boil....

 

[cwi]

HERMS and RIMS guys usually don't add water before lautering, but some still mash out- and claim the viscosity benefits.

Kai disproved the viscosity argument, at least to my satisfaction, by showing there are no negative effects to using room temp water to sparge.

I feel like a politician quoted out of context. For the record, I also don't buy into a mashout causing improved lautering. If Kai did testing and confirmed it, that should be the last word on it. His analytical and testing skills are solid. Kai is also critical of how BeerSmith defines brewhouse efficiency, and handles trub losses- which is how I got involved in this thread.

The HERMS and RIMS comment was to counter the comment below that the added water of a mashout is the real reason people feel they lauter better with one. If they believe they get better lautering with just a temp increase, it is more evidence that the viscosity theory is a myth.

It's the added liquid that helps change viscosity. Not the temperature, so much. That's why it helps a little with lautering.

 

[fpweeks]

reviving this post to report my findings........

i have fairly consistently hit 73% batch sparging, and had been messing with runoff time, as their are posters on here who both adamantly say runoff time when batch sparging makes a differnce and doesnt make a difference....

So my last brew i went with a quick runoff and felt like my eff suffered a bit.

Today i double milled my grain.....(which was a pain in the arse i might add).....i have a fixed roller mill, so i cant tighten it up.

My efficiency today was 90%. Oh, and i let the runoff rip, i might add.

I guess i need a new mill.

 

[swerner]

My Monster Mill is on its way. I can't wait to try it out.