I need help figuring out why I can’t brew anymore lol

[Beerswimmer]

Crush my own. From a good crush to flour, hasn't changed much. I'm at a loss to explain. I've been all grain brewing since the mid 1990's, never had a problem until I moved here. I now buy extra grains and do no-sparge to up my OG.

 

[mongoose33]

Crush my own. From a good crush to flour, hasn't changed much. I'm at a loss to explain. I've been all grain brewing since the mid 1990's, never had a problem until I moved here. I now buy extra grains and do no-sparge to up my OG.

Makes me wonder if something you're using to measure isn't working correctly....say, a thermometer is out of whack, volumes aren't accurate, or something like that.

I also do single-infusion no-sparge; I'm using mostly RO water (a gallon of tap water plus 7.25 gallons of RO water, for a total of 8.25. Here's a recipe I did two weeks ago: 6# 2-row, 6# Pils, .75# white wheat, .75# Munich. Total of 13.5#.

That's a fairly heavy grain bill, but I'm accounting for losses in the mash tun, BK, hoses, things like that. When I did BIAB I would typically use 7.25 gallons, so the extra gallon is essentially those losses. I'll get about 6 gallons into the fermenter.

I didn't calculate efficiency, but that produced a preboil gravity of 1.051. Post-boil (OG) was 1.055 (gentle boil rather than vigorous boil). FG was 1.007 (step mash from 134 up to 149).

The reason for the numbers is to allow a comparison to what you're doing. How do yours compare?

 

[TheMadKing]

Thanks guys I’m leaning towards a two-fold problem as well. For the record, one of the two brews I’ve done in Texas was a rebrew of a recipe I did in Ohio. Literally exact same recipe.
1) I am almost certain that he volume issue has to do with my boil rate and mash tun loss. The geometry of my new cooler is different, but still leaves less than .5gallon retain (I tested that). But it’s typically 90o outside here in Texas versus most of my Ohio brewing was done in cold weather. I am also going to do a test boil to determine my boil off rate because I am assuming that’s why I’m losing so much volume. But also, when I plug my numbers in for strike water volume, brewers friend literally feeds me grain weight x 1.5 to give me the quarts. I think it used to be better than that (when I used it in Ohio) but I don’t know.

Repeat recipe: Total fermentables=11.85 pounds. Volume of strike water 4.5 gallons. Volume of sparge water 3.0 gallons. Preboil volume came out about 7 gallons, a little lower. Post boil volume: 3.25 gallons. Target OG was almost spot on .

But I think the mash is sucking. I would assume the grains are at least fairly fresh, but can’t confirm that. They were bought from a popular home brew supply store in the city (DeFalcos). I milled them myself at the store and used them a few days later. Essentially the same thing I did in Ohio but obviously a different store. Which takes me to water chemistry which I have always tried to avoid.

My plan at this point is this:
1) Buy beersmith and use it instead of a free app
2) Use spring water or RO water for the next batch
3) I also want to set up a little mash with my tap water and test the pH of that mash
4) carefully measure volume of each step and take gravity readings of first runnings, pre boil, and post boil.

If everything goes splendidly on a batch with RO water then that would inform what’s happening. If not it’s back to the drawing board. I know southeast Texas water is garbage, insanely hard, and unpredictable because of its sourcing.

If i weren’t hitting my target gravity, this would be a lot easier to figure out, but I have twice now hit my target gravity but at the total wrong volume.

If you are sparging to a set preboil volume and your OG is on target at the end of the boil then the problem is somewhere between your boil kettle and your fermenter since your volume and sugar content have to be correct at the start of your boil. (Unless you're measuring your volume wrong)

What is your preboil volume? And how are you measuring it?

Check that first. Measure your volumes and gravities at every step in your process and record them. That's the only way to know where your calculations are off

If you discover that your preboil volume is wrong THEN look at your mash tun dead space and grain absorption and just adjust your equipment profile to account for the losses. You'll also need to increase your base malt to account for the additional volume as well if that's the case.

If your preboil volume is wrong then your mash efficiency is probably fine. It sounds like your calculations are working perfectly to calculate OG with the volume of water you currently have, but you just don't have enough water.

 

[woodmansee]

Update: I did a test boil yesterday to determine my boil-off rate. ~2.3-2.4 gallons of boil-off in an hour.... so yeah that's part of the problem. Tentatively brewing again next weekend. My plan is to increase the pre-boil volume and try to get a really solid crush on the grains. Going to take gravity measurements at every stage to determine if I am hitting my targets. I'll follow up when I see what happens!

 

[balrog]

Turn down the heat. No need to boil off 2.3 gallons/hr.

 

[kh54s10]

Your boil off is ridiculous. I boil as low as my propane burner will go and not sputter and it is really high. Still I only boil off 1 gallon per hour here in Florida on 90+ degree days.

Another thing that makes no sense is having half the volume after the boil and the correct OG. That is just not possible. Your OG should be WAY higher.

I suggest that you forget about numbers a calculator gives you. Except mash volume. Do your mash. Drain the first runnings and measure how much wort you collected. Then sparge with enough to get your preboil volume.

Going by your test - I would say you need to do that again. It is WAY high.

You will need a much more accurate knowledge of your boil off rate. I can't imagine the difference from Ohio to Texas would make that much difference unless 1) You only brewed in Ohio in sub freezing temperatures and now in Texas only in 100 + temperatures. 2) altitude change of over 10,000 feet.

I suspect big errors in volume measurements somewhere leading to low fermenter volume stated. Either too low on mash or sparge or both. Or you are leaving a ton of wort somewhere in the system. But all of these should make your OG way high.

 

[balrog]

Or perhaps you are using the same burner, valve opened to same spot, but in the move from Ohio to Texas some spider were knocked out of the propane pathway and now you're burning more than you used to, but I think you'd hear the difference in the jet engine sound, vs propane normal burner sound. I really am at a loss as to the boil off rate being so very, very high.

 

[woodmansee]

It blew my mind honestly. But it's accurate (Not down the the milliliter, but within ounces) as I used a graduated container in and out of the boil pot. I have some theories on why it seems so much higher now than before, but 24 months between the two locations definitely makes that tough. I doubt I was running the burner at full blast back in Ohio but have no clue how hard I was running it generally. So there is room to work there, but I need a baseline, and the 2.3 gallons is at full strength of the burner and at least I can use that for reference (and it's what I've done the last two brews). My kettle is wide, the burner is strong, so I'm shocked but I saw it with my own eyes, it boiled off a **** ton.

But based on the earlier discussion, I'm convinced my efficiency is terrible as well and it's essentially been dumb luck that I got close on the gravity. Only way to determine that is to solve the volume problem and assess the gravity then. My guess is my next brew is going to come in way low on OG, but I have to brew with the right amount of water and find out.

 

[balrog]

You only need a rolling boil. If you see the wort moving, with some bubbles on the top, you have enough. It is moving the wort and hops around. It is rolling. It is not required to have ea Sir Vulcanize of Vesuvius boil. Turn the burner down, do another test, there is no need to be creating more mash output just to boil it off. <credit image to one of many examples I found on YouTube, this one was here at 0:55s. >

 

[TheMadKing]

It blew my mind honestly. But it's accurate (Not down the the milliliter, but within ounces) as I used a graduated container in and out of the boil pot. I have some theories on why it seems so much higher now than before, but 24 months between the two locations definitely makes that tough. I doubt I was running the burner at full blast back in Ohio but have no clue how hard I was running it generally. So there is room to work there, but I need a baseline, and the 2.3 gallons is at full strength of the burner and at least I can use that for reference (and it's what I've done the last two brews). My kettle is wide, the burner is strong, so I'm shocked but I saw it with my own eyes, it boiled off a poopy ton.

But based on the earlier discussion, I'm convinced my efficiency is terrible as well and it's essentially been dumb luck that I got close on the gravity. Only way to determine that is to solve the volume problem and assess the gravity then. My guess is my next brew is going to come in way low on OG, but I have to brew with the right amount of water and find out.

Change your equipment profile in BeerSmith to account for your water losses and then it will drop your predicted original gravity so you can adjust your recipe back to where it should be.

You didn't hit your OG by accident, you just hit the correct OG for the amount of wort predicted by BeerSmith and then lost more than you thought

 

[Saunassa]

I doubt I was running the burner at full blast back in Ohio but have no clue how hard I was running it generally. So there is room to work there, but I need a baseline, and the 2.3 gallons is at full strength of the burner and at least I can use that for reference (and it's what I've done the last two brews). My kettle is wide, the burner is strong,

. It sounds like you are using the burner full out for the last two brews. Is this correct? As I understand it we just need a gentle rolling boil and not one that looks like a hot tub. They probably mix Lpg for different climates and your burner for the same setting is more efficient then before? This might help explain, along with possibly drier climate, that multiple people experience this moving to Texas.

 

[woodmansee]

So update: We brewed again about two weeks ago. Made a couple changes to our strategy.
1) Calculated for the 2.3g boil-off rate, as well as grain absorption and mash tun loss.
2)Double crushed the grain for this run, which felt risky since it is a wheat beer and I didn't want to get a stuck sparge but it went fine
3) Used bottled spring water instead of tap water.

The recipe was similar but not identical to the last wheat beer we did, but close enough that I think they can be compared in terms of the mash and boil aspects.

This brew went exactly as planned. We carefully measured all our volumes to ensure we were putting in and getting out what we expected. We also checked the mash pH (not much concern here though with the spring water) and it was 5.2-5.3 so perfect. Temps stayed right where we wanted them, got the expected volume into the boil kettle with a pre-boil gravity of 1.038 (target 1.040). Boiled at full strength still, and ended up with ~5.5-5.75 gallons into the fermenter at 1.055 OG (Target 1.058).

I don't have a final gravity yet, but should be transferring it any day (as soon as the keg kicks) and will get that reading then. But overall, I'm really happy. My next plan is to run a very small mash with double-crushed grains and tap water to determine if the water itself is hurting my efficiency. This brew clocked in right at 72% efficiency, so I want to compare that to a mash done the same way but with my water. However, I am just going to continue to double crush all my grains for the time being to be safe. The mini-mash will give me more information on what was actually happening, but at least for now, I have a path to hit my targets!

 

[IslandLizard]

Good to hear you're back in the brewing game. Congrats!

This brew clocked in right at 72% efficiency

Wheat and Rye malt kernels are much smaller than barley and really need a tighter gap.
On my 2-roller Monster Mill 0.026" vs. 0.034" for barley to get them crushed well enough. Running through twice on a wider gap won't get them crushed well enough as once through an appropriately narrower gap would.

Oat malt kernels (not flaked oats) are much narrower, needle like, they need an even tighter gap.

If you use a fair percentage of small kernel grain, wider gaps will tank your mash efficiency.

2.3 gallon boil off per hour is still way too much. There must be ways to reduce that to around 1 gallon/hr.

 

[balrog]

+1 on the boil off rate. Wasting many much energyzen, making much unnecessary mash volume. Turn down the burn. Roiling boil. Just get the water moving.

 

[Lorne Lemaire]

i would like to add that the speed at which wort is drawn from mash tun is very important as well. Too fast and sugars will be left behind also mash out/sparge temperature needs to be right as higher temperature (174) will aid in extraction.

 

[skidaddytn]

Also what can really lose a lot of water is if you wait until you have all of your sparge done before lighting the burner. I usually fire the burner as soon as I have a few inches and try to keep it to where I'm ready to rock and roll as soon as the brew pot hits the pre-60 min mark. Usually since the mash/sparge temperature is already hot, it doesn't take as much heat to maintain as it is filling.

 

[TheMadKing]

i would like to add that the speed at which wort is drawn from mash tun is very important as well. Too fast and sugars will be left behind also mash out/sparge temperature needs to be right as higher temperature (174) will aid in extraction.

The rate at which the wort leaves the mash tun has no impact on the amount of sugars in solution - just something to keep in mind. A person batch sparging can drain the mash tun in a few minutes, and then do a series of batch sparges and be far more efficient than someone who drains the mash tun over the course of 2 hours and does not sparge at all.

Also what can really lose a lot of water is if you wait until you have all of your sparge done before lighting the burner. I usually fire the burner as soon as I have a few inches and try to keep it to where I'm ready to rock and roll as soon as the brew pot hits the pre-60 min mark. Usually since the mash/sparge temperature is already hot, it doesn't take as much heat to maintain as it is filling.

Can you clarify this?

Lighting the burner while your boil kettle is filling causes you to evaporate wort from your boil kettle at a faster rate than keeping the burner off because the temperature will be higher for longer. I'm not sure I'm fully understanding what you're saying though

 

[Lorne Lemaire]

The rate at which the wort leaves the mash tun has no impact on the amount of sugars in solution - just something to keep in mind. A person batch sparging can drain the mash tun in a few minutes, and then do a series of batch sparges and be far more efficient than someone who drains the mash tun over the course of 2 hours and does not sparge at all.



Can you clarify this?

Lighting the burner while your boil kettle is filling causes you to evaporate wort from your boil kettle at a faster rate than keeping the burner off because the temperature will be higher for longer. I'm not sure I'm fully understanding what you're saying though

i guess I was thinking about fly sparging and obviously using sparge water, If sparging in this manner speed is important as fresh water needs time to draw sugars out of the inside of the grist and into solution so that they can be extracted.