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ZenBrew

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Because I can't solve the problem I keep taking about!

My problem is that every soda I keg ends up foaming up in the line as it comes out and is flat when it gets served. My set up is keeping the soda in corny keg around 37 degrees and 15 to 20 psi. Serving through 20 feet 3/16" id line. Also have 4 epoxy mixers in the dip tube to try to reduce flow.

I have attached video to show what is happening. I have replaced the dip tube o ring and changed out the dip tube in case one of those was leaking co2 into the liquid path. However that didn't seem to help.

Perhaps after watching the video someone will have an idea of what's wrong.I'm stumped and frustrated...

The video first shows how much has there is in the line before I open up the faucet.then I show how badly out dioramas as the soda flows out.
 
I thought that bubbles in the line like that meant the liquid is over carved?
 
That's possible it is over carbed. If it is true, I just don't understand how it got there. Keeping it at 15-20 PSI at 37F shouldn't over carb it, right? If its just over carbonation, on the next batch I make (which will be tonight), then I will serve it at less than 15 PSI to see if that helps.
 
Because I can't solve the problem I keep taking about!

My problem is that every soda I keg ends up foaming up in the line as it comes out and is flat when it gets served. My set up is keeping the soda in corny keg around 37 degrees and 15 to 20 psi. Serving through 20 feet 3/16" id line.


LOL... Seems like you are in the same boat I was. I think kegging seems easy but there are definitely some nuances to getting it right.


20 ft. may be too long? I started with 5 ft. lines (too short) and now have 10 ft. lines that work. I also think your PSI is too high. I've read 10 or 11 PSI is about right for serving.

With trial and error (and advice from here) I figured out that my biggest problem was not releasing pressure from the keg after I turned the Pressure down from 30. I couldn't figure out why even after I turned the dial down... it stayed at 30. Yes.... I'm a moron because it didn't dawn on me that in addition to turning it down, I needed to bleed off some of that pressure. My entire first keg was crappola; nothing but foamy flat beer.

My second keg turned out much better once I got the 10' lines and a better handle on how to work the regulator.

I'm about to keg 2 more batches and I've decided that I'm just not experienced enough yet to get the force carb right, so I'm going to keg them with priming sugar and then pressurize with CO2 on top (just enough to get a good seal) and then disconnect and let them sit for 3 weeks in a closet to carb as if they were in bottles. Then I'll put them in the fridge, hook them up at 11 psi for a week before I serve.

It's too much time, effort and money to waste beer on my inexperience with force carbing so I'm going to take the "idiot proof" (I hope) path until I get more experience working the regulator.

Sorry I didn't really have much in the way of advice.... I just wanted you to know that you aren't alone. I've had the same problems and frustration and I've been working through them slowly.
 
bubbles in the line is usually an indication that the liquid in the lines is warmer than the liquid in the keg. Once it warms it cant hold as much co2 and it breaks out of the solution forming bubbles. The cure is to work on keeping the lines as cold as the kegs. Since cold air sinks, there can often be as much as 10 degrees difference between the bottom and the top of the cooling chamber. A fan moving air would help some, but with the higher pressure on soda it may not help as much as it does with the same problems in beer. If you were to pour consecutive drinks, i would bet the foaming issue would be way less by the 2nd or third when the lines were cooled from the flow of the liquid.
 
Take out some epoxy mixers. From my experience up to two work great. Three or more and it actually makes it worse. With 20 ft of line you should not need any mixers. I wouldn't go more than 15 psi. That's quite a bit of carbonation. It's also possible the lines are so long the beer is warming up while in the line. All 20 ft are inside the keggerator, correct?

Edit: I just realized your serving soda and not beer. I tried with seltzer at 30 psi. Epoxy mixers and long line don't help. I actually got better results with a very short large 3/8" line. It came out real fast but most of the bubbles stayed in.
 
First thing I'd look at is temperature stratification. Remember, if the temps of the line are higher than the soda, CO2 will come out of suspension. Even worse, 20' of line is *WORSE* than short lines because it's a bigger volume of liquid subjected to the same problem.

How are you carbonating the keg? "Set it and forget" at 15-20 PSI, or carbonating much higher and letting it come down?

I recently had some foaming issues that *I think* I've finally worked out. 40 deg F, 16 psi, 10' lines. I was getting huge foam problems, and wasn't sure if it was due to temperature stratification or the pressure (which I hadn't realized went so high). But from looking at the lines, it was clear that I was getting a lot of bubbles in the line. So I added three PC case fans and turned the pressure on the regulator down to 12psi... And it was just as bad. I solved the temp problem, but suddenly had beer that was "overcarbed" for the serving pressure. The bubbles were still coming out of suspension in the line despite the temperature improvement. When I pushed the pressure right back up to ~16psi, though, it was fine. I get nice slow pours and they retain carbonation.

So is there a chance that your soda is actually overpressurized for the regulator pressure you're currently applying?
 
for everyone pointing out psi of 15 or less, and less than 20' of hose... make sure that you read that he is serving soda on this keg, not beer. He is going to need higher psi and therefore longer hose for the proper carbonation
 
A lot of great suggestions! Thanks for all the help.

I hadn't considered the temperature difference. I can measure that tomorrow.

I also took out two of the epoxy mixers. So I'll see how that goes.

I've carbonated with both the set it and forget it and force carbonation methods, but nothing changes either way.

This may sounds crazy, but I'm starting to wonder if this problem has to do with the type of sugar I have been using. I've been using either raw organic cane sugar or turbinado sugar. These sugar have much more stuff in them than the regular white cane sugar.

I'm wondering if these sugars coagulates after sitting in the firdge for a while. The reason I think that is the was a bunch of black, weird crap in the keg tonight when I cleaned it out for the next batch. The black stuff was kind of clogging up the epoxy mixers.

The first 2/3 of this keg poured fine, but then I took it out and moved it briefly, and I'm thinking that made all the black junk fall to the bottom and start clogging things up. Then, I was screwed. I'll post a pic to show what this stuff looked like.

I'm thinking about running an experiment where I take white sugar and raw sugar and put them in a solution of the same concentration, stick them in the firdge and see if the raw sugar solution coagulates.

Does that sound plausible?
 
The weird black stuff. Coagulated raw cane sugar?

ForumRunner_20120705_230146.jpg
 
Fyi I checked the temperature difference between top and bottom of my kegerator. Turns out there is only a 2 to 3 degree difference between too to bottom, so I think I'm ok there.
 
I have noticed bubbles forming in the line as a keg warms. Is there any difference between carbing and serving temperature? There seems to be this misconception that you can carbonate at one temp/pressure and serve at another temp/pressure and not have problems. This is a myth. If you're dropping the pressure before serving, then you're getting bubbles in your line. If you don't believe me, pay attention to what happens when you open a soda bottle at any temperature. Sealed=no bubbles, crack it just a little=bubbles start to form. A pressure drop on a carbonated system that is at equilibrium will almost immediately bring CO2 out of solution.

As for the black stuff, I'd suggest making a syrup with your sugar before mixing so you know it disperses well when you mix it with water. Also, make sure that any other ingredients you have are filtered well so you don't clog up the keg. Even small particulates such as spices can coagulate over time.
 
No difference between carb and serving temp. I keep everything constant. Think I will make a syrup to test raw case sugar coagulating. That's the only way I'll know now!
 
I thought that bubbles in the line like that meant the liquid is over carved?

If bubbles form in the line after sitting, it means that either the beer is carbonated higher than the serving pressure, or the lines are significantly warmer than the keg. Higher than serving pressure doesn't necessarily mean overcarbed though (although it often is), and has nothing to do with this case since the bubbles are entering the line from the keg, not forming in the lines after sitting.

20 ft. may be too long? I started with 5 ft. lines (too short) and now have 10 ft. lines that work. I also think your PSI is too high. I've read 10 or 11 PSI is about right for serving.

If anything, 20' is too short. The only "problem" you'd encounter with lines that are too long is a slower pour, it's not going to cause foam or other issues. And he's pouring soda, not beer, which requires higher carbonation, higher pressure, and much longer lines.

bubbles in the line is usually an indication that the liquid in the lines is warmer than the liquid in the keg. Once it warms it cant hold as much co2 and it breaks out of the solution forming bubbles. The cure is to work on keeping the lines as cold as the kegs. Since cold air sinks, there can often be as much as 10 degrees difference between the bottom and the top of the cooling chamber. A fan moving air would help some, but with the higher pressure on soda it may not help as much as it does with the same problems in beer. If you were to pour consecutive drinks, i would bet the foaming issue would be way less by the 2nd or third when the lines were cooled from the flow of the liquid.

If the bubbles were forming after sitting for a minute I might agree, but they're clearly present as the soda enters the line from the keg, and there'd have to be a huge difference in the temperature for the bubbles to form instantly like that. It also doesn't take much flow to cool the lines and see a noticeable difference, and there was zero difference seen in the line close to the keg between before the pour and directly after.

This may sounds crazy, but I'm starting to wonder if this problem has to do with the type of sugar I have been using. I've been using either raw organic cane sugar or turbinado sugar. These sugar have much more stuff in them than the regular white cane sugar.

I'm wondering if these sugars coagulates after sitting in the firdge for a while. The reason I think that is the was a bunch of black, weird crap in the keg tonight when I cleaned it out for the next batch. The black stuff was kind of clogging up the epoxy mixers.

The first 2/3 of this keg poured fine, but then I took it out and moved it briefly, and I'm thinking that made all the black junk fall to the bottom and start clogging things up. Then, I was screwed. I'll post a pic to show what this stuff looked like.

I'm thinking about running an experiment where I take white sugar and raw sugar and put them in a solution of the same concentration, stick them in the firdge and see if the raw sugar solution coagulates.

Does that sound plausible?

Yes, if sugars and other compounds in the soda crystallize and coagulate, creating a severe restriction in the diptube, it could absolutely knock CO2 out of solution and cause the foaming you're seeing. Based on the fact that it poured fine for a while, and the evidence of the black gunk forming, I'd bet that's exactly what's going on. I'd suggest subbing a small amount of the sugar you're using for corn syrup. The corn syrup should act as an interfering agent and help prevent the other sugars from crystallizing.
 
Binary search: keep dividing the problem in half until there's only one part left.

Does this happen on every keg? If you have more than one keg, try swapping lines, etc, to see if it is related to equipment somehow.

Sure looks like you are entraining air into the out side. Switch keg posts. Switch liquid line with another keg, or replace the tubing. Switch pinlock connectors. Switch everything.

Try carbonating water the same way and see if that does it.
 
I'm sure it's just an optical illusion but damned if that tubing doesn't look like large ID, like 3/8". Are you absolutely sure it's 3/16" ID?

To test if it's a warm tubing issue, put that whole coil into a bucket of icewater.
 
I haven't dispensed soda in a long time, but when I did it was more like 30' of line (3/16") at at 30 psi. It seems that at 20 psi, it would be undercarbed. I didn't use the epoxy mixers, but used the longer line successfully.

Do you have any longer line to try?
 
I did give 30 feet of line a try at 30 psi with same problem. But I'm really starting to suspect the raw cane sugar as I mentioned above. I gotta do that experiment to see if it coagulates... Then I'll know for sure. And I can let you all know too!
 
So I made a new thing of root beer and the problem is gone. However I'm not going to move the keg until it its empty because I used turbinado sugar.

Soon I'll do an experiment to see if a turbinado sugar solution coagulatesin the fridge.

Thanks for the help! I'll let you know the results of my experiment after I conduct it.
 
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