I hate flu shots!

[dkwolf]

The Andrew Wakefield case is one of the most prominent cases of medical fraud in the history of medicine. The problem is that Andrew Wakefield was right, and it's the rest of the medical community who performed criminal actions in their attack on him. Paul Offit is an industry shill and he makes a mint off of promoting mandatory vaccinations. Research both sides before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Typically in a discussion about vaccinations, I do okay, until someone declares support for the Wakefield study. At that point, I'd rather punch that person in the mouth than continue the discussion.

Soooo many BLATANT flaws and red flags....

 

[dkwolf]

Back on track (a bit): I completely agree with vaccinating for the big nasties - MMR, DTP, Hepatitis -- especially the ones that are likely to cause an epidemic. I can even agree with the flu shot for those with compromised/weak immune systems. As a firefighter, outdoorsman, and hobby carpenter/construction worker, I tend to keep up-to-date on my tetanus shots myself (actually had three of them in a six year period once)

What I CANNOT support is pushing vaccines on the masses for an illness that (assuming a 'normal' immune system), if affected, makes you miserable for 4-6 days and then leaves you alone. Especially for those of us who, at most, get a small cold once or twice a year.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Typically in a discussion about vaccinations, I do okay, until someone declares support for the Wakefield study. At that point, I'd rather punch that person in the mouth than continue the discussion.

Soooo many BLATANT flaws and red flags....

Please point them out why don't you?

 

[dkwolf]

Please point them out why don't you?

The big three:
1) Financial conflict of interest - he was both personally and professionally funded by lawyers seeking to sue the makers of the MMR vaccine.
2) Non-random sample group - some of the subjects in his study were recruited by those same lawyers.
3) Sample group size - millions of vaccines given annually, and he only studies TWELVE kids? Does the term "statistically insignificant" mean anything? (It would be like asking two people if they liked rap music, and then declaring 50% of all people like rap)

 

[sudsmcgee]

The big three:
1) Financial conflict of interest - he was both personally and professionally funded by lawyers seeking to sue the makers of the MMR vaccine.
2) Non-random sample group - some of the subjects in his study were recruited by those same lawyers.
3) Sample group size - millions of vaccines given annually, and he only studies TWELVE kids? Does the term "statistically insignificant" mean anything? (It would be like asking two people if they liked rap music, and then declaring 50% of all people like rap)

1) EVERYONE involved with the whole Wakefield case has huge financial conflicts of interest. This is true for both sides. Vaccines are BIG money. Every time a vaccine gets added to the mandatory school list, people make millions if not billions of dollars.

2) The same goes for mesotheleoma studies, but no on will deny that asbestos causes it.

3) It was the first study of its kind, AKA a pilot study. Although the rate of autism is rising, it's still relatively rare. I'd like to know how he should have found 5,000 kids with autism in the UK to study.

Here is the bottom line: side effects DO happen from vaccines, and in the US, you CANNOT hold the manufacturer reponsible either legally or financially. This is where much of the distrust comes from with vaccines.

Doesn't it concern you that the new flu vaccines are not studied each year for safety? I get that you can't study them due to time contstraints, but I guess I am crazy to expect something that's going to be injected into my body to be well studied.

 

[broadbill]

I have little information on these conspiracy theories, and I usually ignore the conspiracies until the evidence is overwhelming.

But two things that are irrefutable and should be pointed out: there is a huge, HUGE amount of money in pharma, and people will do some seriously unethical and illegal stuff where big money is involved. These pharma companies are out to make money, not to make the world a healthier place. A bit of mistrust and inspection is necessary to keep them honest.

Yep, those two things are irrefutable. An equally irrefutable counterpoint: pharma's products are regulated very heavily by the FDA to be healthy and safe. They go just a bit farther than "a bit of mistrust and inspection"...and that makes all the difference in the world with regard to your two points.

Now the tinfoil hat guys will come back and say the FDA is rigged, biased, crooked, blah, blah, blah. At that point we are way far off the reservation as conspiracy theories go.

 

[passedpawn]

Yep, those two things are irrefutable. An equally irrefutable counterpoint: pharma's products are regulated very heavily by the FDA to be healthy and safe. They go just a bit farther than "a bit of mistrust and inspection"...and that makes all the difference in the world with regard to your two points.

Now the tinfoil hat guys will come back and say the FDA is rigged, biased, crooked, blah, blah, blah. At that point we are way far off the reservation as conspiracy theories go.

I've developed at least 10 medical devices that required FDA clearance. I agree that they are a tough watchdog. One of my clients is getting an FDA audit tomorrow, and they are sweating it.

 

[bottlebomber]

I wonder why the FDA won't support herbal remedies, when extracts can be easily standardized and clinical testing shouldn't be any different than testing pharmaceuticals... Not a conspiracy theory, just curious. When I have a sore throat I crush a massive amount of garlic on some toast and the symptoms are typically gone within 12-24 hours. Herbs are highly affective.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Yep, those two things are irrefutable. An equally irrefutable counterpoint: pharma's products are regulated very heavily by the FDA to be healthy and safe. They go just a bit farther than "a bit of mistrust and inspection"...and that makes all the difference in the world with regard to your two points.

Now the tinfoil hat guys will come back and say the FDA is rigged, biased, crooked, blah, blah, blah. At that point we are way far off the reservation as conspiracy theories go.

You clearly are not familiar with vaccine regulation if you believe that all vaccines must be proven safe prior to widespread distribution. This is most certainly not the case. What incentive does a vaccine manufacturer really have to prove safety when you can't even sue them if their vaccine harms you? All you can do is file a complaint with the VICP. BTW, the fact that the VICP even has to exist should tell you something......

Also, I'm glad to learn that all of these drugs were proven safe prior to distirbution under the heavy regulation of the FDA, and that no one got hurt when using them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs. Oh wait, they killed more people that the war in the middle east. Sorry, I got confused there for a minute.

:cross:

 

[sudsmcgee]

I wonder why the FDA won't support herbal remedies, when extracts can be easily standardized and clinical testing shouldn't be any different than testing pharmaceuticals... Not a conspiracy theory, just curious. When I have a sore throat I crush a massive amount of garlic on some toast and the symptoms are typically gone within 12-24 hours. Herbs are highly affective.

Natural extracts can't be patented. That's basically it in a nutshell. Without a patent guaranteeing your ROI, no on can afford a proper clinical trial.

And now the FDA is even saying that synthetic copies of natural botanical ingredients cannot legally be sold as dietary supplements http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com...nical-constituents-It-s-not-looking-promising.

But hey, as stated above, any mention of FDA bias makes me a wacko, right? There's clearly no revolving door at the FDA. I have never heard of anyone working on developing a new drug, and then later having the task of of approving their own drug while employed at the FDA.

 

[dfc]

I wonder why the FDA won't support herbal remedies, when extracts can be easily standardized and clinical testing shouldn't be any different than testing pharmaceuticals... Not a conspiracy theory, just curious. When I have a sore throat I crush a massive amount of garlic on some toast and the symptoms are typically gone within 12-24 hours. Herbs are highly affective.

There's no money in it. If you can synthesize herbs and patent them the FDA will support it.

 

[headbanger]

There's no money in it. If you can synthesize herbs and patent them the FDA will support it.

Man I gotta tell ya.. i been driving around in my van with old scoob and we been having a real good time... made about 8K this month, just from a few herbs that were grown locally, picked them up at the farmer's market dight down the way

 

[kroach01]

Deleted!

 

[kroach01]

Deleted

 

[kroach01]

Deleted. Why bother..

 

[kroach01]

Scare tactics. That's all that line of thinking is.

Actually, it's true. HIV is extremely volatile and won't survive long outside a bodily fluid.

 

[bottlebomber]

Wow the amount of BS assertions in here is completely mind boggling and comical. Does anyone making these claims have a degree in anything medical related?

We have conspiracy nuts, thimersol nuts (it's not in most shots anymore and if it is its minimal, not to mention no real scientifically accepted experiments ever suggested this stabilizer was even remotely toxic), people saying vitamin d actually prevents the flu, flu shots cause serious immune reactions that last decades, flu shots have the worst reactions (tetanus is much more painful for days) and everything in between. All BS and without scientific or medical merit.

As someone about to get their medical degree, I have a pretty good understanding of medical facts and BS with no evidentiary or physiological basis. And most of this is just that.

The flu mutates rapidly, and the season is autumn. The shot doesn't cure the flu for the former reason, and may not even provide immunity if the strain mutates after the vaccine was developed. And many people think they have the flu when in reality there are millions of variations of adenoviruses, rhino viruses etc etc.

If you don't want it fine. But please don't spread BS unless you speak from a medical background or of scientifically accepted studies... It does more harm to public health than good.

This upsets me because I deal with parents all the time who won't vaccinate their kids due to Internet conspiracies. Then they get the mumps or polio or rubella or measles or diphtheria.

Well you got almost everything wrong, rant master. I'm the only person I believe who mentioned ThimerosAL, but I'm far from a nut. In fact nobody in here has really expressed any exaggerated viewpoints at all. Much of what has been expressed has been a matter of opinion and presented as such. It was said that the FLU can leave lasting effects not the vaccine. One person in here is an electrical engineer who develops medical equipment. And what might your credentials be good sir?

 

[kroach01]

Well you got almost everything wrong, rant master. I'm the only person I believe who mentioned ThimerosAL, but I'm far from a nut. In fact nobody in here has really expressed any exaggerated viewpoints at all. Much of what has been expressed has been a matter of opinion and presented as such. It was said that the FLU can leave lasting effects not the vaccine. One person in here is an electrical engineer who develops medical equipment. And what might your credentials be good sir?

Soon to be MD and deal with patients every day in a major NYC hospital. I work 80++ hours a week there.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vsd/thimerosal_outcomes/
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228
http://vaccinesafety.ecbt.org/ecbt/...c_Studies_on_Thimerosal_and_Autism_1_8_08.pdf
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/112/3/604.abstract
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=197365
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=482540

 

[bottlebomber]

Soon to be MD.

So can we just put you down as a Med student for now then? After all, it looks like you've just finished Step 1.

Edit: Wow, you edited your post. Funny that you say you work 80++ hours a week in a NYC hospital, but in your intro thread dated 7/25 you claim to be living in Tucson, but are moving to Brooklyn in a "few weeks". Just how many of these 80++ hour weeks have you worked? And how would any number of them give you any authority on the subject beyond doing Internet searches, the same as anyone else can do?

 

[kroach01]

Deleted, useless convo

Nothing in my edit changed my point, it just added to my credentials to speak on the matter.
Nor have I been inconsistent or not truthful.

But hey, believe what you want if it makes you feel safe and happy.

 

[bottlebomber]

So what was wrong with what I said besides a trivial misspelling on my iPhone?

That's funny, my iPhone brought up the misspelling loud and clear. What was wrong with it was that you mischaracterized everyone's role in this discussion, attempted to act as some kind of an authority, and then went on to write a 4 post, 2000 word rant on what idiots and conspiracy theorists we all are. And then in the end all you have is a bunch of Google links, just like anyone else on the Internets can provide. Since my mother has been a medical professional for the past 35 years, and currently teaches the kind of classes you hope to graduates from, I can tell you that there is just as much bias in the medical community as one would expect, which is not surprising seeing the swanky restaurants and retreats she goes to on the dime of the drug reps.

 

[kroach01]

That's funny, my iPhone brought up the misspelling loud and clear. What was wrong with it was that you mischaracterized everyone's role in this discussion, attempted to act as some kind of an authority, and then went on to write a

Fine, believe what you want. That's been my experience with such people anyhow.
Have a nice day!

 

[kroach01]

That's funny, my iPhone brought up the misspelling loud and clear. What was wrong with it was that you mischaracterized everyone's role in this discussion, attempted to act as some kind of an authority, and then went on to write a 4 post, 2000 word rant on what idiots and conspiracy theorists we all are. And then in the end all you have is a bunch of Google links, just like anyone else on the Internets can provide. Since my mother has been a medical professional for the past 35 years, and currently teaches the kind of classes you hope to graduates from, I can tell you that there is just as much bias in the medical community as one would expect, which is not surprising seeing the swanky restaurants and retreats she goes to on the dime of the drug reps.

Believe what you want.
You just edited too lol..

I cited some of the most reputable medical journals and organizations in the world and you see it is a random google search and therefore not credible? What would you call credible, then?

I don't take classes actually, I do clinical rotations. Done with classes.

 

[dfc]

Actually, it's true. HIV is extremely volatile and won't survive long outside a bodily fluid.

That's not what I was talking about.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Deleted, useless convo

Nothing in my edit changed my point, it just added to my credentials to speak on the matter.
Nor have I been inconsistent or not truthful.

But hey, believe what you want if it makes you feel safe and happy.

Congratulations, just like you, I am not a doctor. However, I have worked in Quality and R&D for an FDA regulated company for over 10 years and I am a board member on an FDA Regulatory and Compliance board. I know a LOT more about FDA and science than you might think I do. I have also been involved in multiple research projects. At this point, I suppose that I know more about this topic than you do.

 

[sudsmcgee]

This summarizes the lack of flu vaccine efficacy quite nicely:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD001269.pub4/abstract

http://www.safeminds.org/protect-yourself/fludocuments/Cochrane 2010 analysis.pdf

For those short on attention span, here is the summary in a nutshell:

The combined results of these trials showed that under ideal conditions (vaccine completely matching circulating viral configuration) 33 healthy adults need to be vaccinated to avoid one set of influenza symptoms. In average conditions (partially matching vaccine) 100 people need to be vaccinated to avoid one set of influenza symptoms.

Influenza vaccines have a modest effect in reducing influenza symptoms and working days lost. There is no evidence that they affect
complications, such as pneumonia, or transmission.

WARNING:
This review includes 15 out of 36 trials funded by industry (four had no funding declaration). An earlier systematic review of 274
influenza vaccine studies published up to 2007 found industry funded studies were published in more prestigious journals and cited
more than other studies independently from methodological quality and size. Studies funded from public sources were significantly
less likely to report conclusions favorable to the vaccines. The review showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but
there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies. The content and conclusions of this
review should be interpreted in light of this finding.

 

[Grantman1]

Good stuff, and not surprising one bit.

One thing that we aren't often told, is that when any industry (or anyone with monetary interests) funds a study, they often say to whoever is conducting the study, "find us a link between ______ and ______" or "we're looking for data that suggests _____ doesn't have any effect on _____." Really tends to influence whatever conclusions are drawn from the study, and in turn of course, the "results" that we hear about.

It basically means is that if you aren't looking at who's conducting the study and taking that into account, you could be citing absolutely worthless information.

 

[rs4life]

Believe what you want.
You just edited too lol..

I cited some of the most reputable medical journals and organizations in the world and you see it is a random google search and therefore not credible? What would you call credible, then?

I don't take classes actually, I do clinical rotations. Done with classes.

First major point in trying to argue something: If you are in school for something related to the topic (i.e in this case either an MD or RN STUDENT) do not act like you know jack-S because in reality you have not passed your boards and you command zero respect. The majority of new doctors I have had the experience of being around (I am a registered nurse) are not that knowledgeable. You will learn 10 times more in your first year of being an MD than you ever learned in school. Don't use "med student" as a pedestal, it means literally nothing to anyone, especially those in the medical field.

On topic: I do not believe in the flu vaccine for anyone but children and the elderly or the immuno-compromised.

 

[kroach01]

I have passed Step one boards, actually. Did really well I might add
Taking CS in a few months and CK in May.
Been published numerous times for medical research and am spending a few months of fourth year doing research.

My gist was dispelling wives tales about vaccinations, rather than commenting on the efficacy of the influenza vaccine in particular.
I might add, I was up all night doing a presentation on current Immunosuppressive therapy for transplant surgery patients and endocrine surgery. Needless to say, I was extremely tired and rather irritable. It was a sleepless night.
I sincerely apologize for being so abrasive - it was definitely out of line. The demanding schedule of surgery rotation is taking its toll on me.

Edit: addition of reputable resources to ponder, since this is the direction it's taking
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X10018220
http://www.cmaj.ca/content/183/13/E1025
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(11)70295-X/abstract (a broad meta-study)

 

[CreamyGoodness]

I blame you for all this, Dog.

Personally I dont get a flu shot because I am uninsured.

Whether or not the flu shot is effective and necessary (and let me tell you, 9 pages in and I care less then when I started reading) the anti-vaccine people have horrid PR. Those who talk most about childhood vaccines are expecting and new mothers... and their voice is often marginalized... they are just scared new mothers after all, they're supposed to freak out about things. Celebrity endorsement? An actor no one has seen in anything compelling since "Singled Out," a gig she hated by the way, and who might have PLAYED a doctor or medical professional in her college days in the black box theater. No one is really listening. You have the AMA on one side, Playboy model and professional poolside microphone holder Jenny McCarthy on the other.

But now that I got that out, what I WILL say is this: I drink New York City tapwater daily and frequent subway platforms... I feel pretty confident that minute levels of mercury arent going to be what takes me down when taken once a year...