I can't rotate CIP ball

[Giuseppe Orlandi]

Hi all friends I need some brotherly advice I have tried in every way but I can't get the 4 inch Kegland cip ball to work both with the high pressure water network and with the magnetic pump which I attach photos with specifications I rely on you and your experience.... if I turn the cip ball with my hand the ball turns freely... I attach the whole configuration and thank you in advance

 

[Whisky River]

The thing about most CIP systems (in addition to being largely useless in most cases, in my opinion) is that they require a tremendous amount of flow to drive them. Much more than most standard brew pumps. The more expensive the CIP ball and the closer the tolerances the less flow they need.
The ball you show has a minimum flow requirement of 45l/min at 1 bar of pressure. The pump you show states a maximum flow of 19l/min.

 

[Giuseppe Orlandi]

thanks for answering me so if I understood correctly you mean that the cip ball is too big and the pump too small! what do you recommend I do to solve it? between the pump and the cip ball I spent more than $120 and I'm sorry I can't use them

 

[Giuseppe Orlandi]

I thought about your answer, and this question came to mind, if I increased the diameter of the pipe to increase the flow and modified or replaced this hose holder with something that has a larger hole to allow more water to pass through, could I solve the problem?

 

[PCABrewing]

I thought about your answer, and this question came to mind, if I increased the diameter of the pipe to increase the flow and modified or replaced this hose holder with something that has a larger hole to allow more water to pass through, could I solve the problem?

Not likely.
The pump cannot achieve the flow needed with adequate pressure to do any good.
Get a bigger pump, I would recommend a direct coupled, not magnetic too.
You need to achieve adequate pressure at the stated flow rate.

 

[Giuseppe Orlandi]

Not likely.
The pump cannot achieve the flow needed with adequate pressure to do any good.
Get a bigger pump, I would recommend a direct coupled, not magnetic too.
You need to achieve adequate pressure at the stated flow rate.

So the diameter of the pipes is not essential, with an excellent pump I could continue to use the classic 3/8 John Guest pipes and the hose holder with an 8 mm hole?

 

[PCABrewing]

So the diameter of the pipes is not essential, with an excellent pump I could continue to use the classic 3/8 John Guest pipes and the hose holder with an 8 mm hole?

Not correct.
It all matters.

 

[IslandLizard]

Many brewers who CIP use a sump pump. Those can push large amounts of water and when restricted (by the CIP ball) create enough pressure to clean soiled surfaces.

 

[Zenmeister]

I use this sump pump. Pretty cheat, at around $60.00.
I bought it from Amazon eight years ago, and it works great, even in water with temps around 165 deg F. It spins the hell out of the CIP ball, and it can clean so much better than I ever could, especially in my Unitank.
Amazon.com/Superior-Pump-91250-Submersible-Thermoplastic

I thought I had a video of it in action, but next time I brew I will make one and post it. Additionally I can post a parts list of hoses and connectors as well.

 

[Broken Crow]

If it helps; Like you I have a CIP ball that requires 45l/min. Mine is too large to fit through a 1.5"TC fitting (which is the size of the port in my domed keggle lid that I use for both my steam condenser and CIP). I wanted to use it for a keg washer as well, so I attach it with a QD fitting; 1.5"TC for the keggle, or simply to the extension on my submersible pump. The pump is not a pond pump, but not quite a sump pump either..I don't remember what it was sold as, but it has a 1200G/hour flow rate and for CIP, I put it in a bucket on the floor in front of my keggle and use a hose with QDs to circulate it back up tto the top of my kettle.
I've seen some folk on here use a March, Chugger or Riptide to push their CIP balls, but like you I use an MP-15RM pump for brewing.
You need a more powerful pump. Here's mine;

 

[Zenmeister]

Just a side not to my post above. I use my pump with a 1.5" spray head, so you would likely require a pump that could have a higher flow rate with your 4" spray head.

 

[Broken Crow]

Hey; Another thought: Since you posted a pic of a @Vevor pump, I'm gonna tag them as they have a presence on this site and interact with us customers. Maybe @Vevor can make a recommendation for you as they have well over 100 differently spec'd pumps available.

 

[IslandLizard]

Just a side not to my post above. I use my pump with a 1.5" spray head, so you would likely require a pump that could have a higher flow rate with your 4" spray head.

In picture #4 it reads closer to 5 cm... ~2 inches, maybe.

 

[Vevor]

Hey; Another thought: Since you posted a pic of a @Vevor pump, I'm gonna tag them as they have a presence on this site and interact with us customers. Maybe @Vevor can make a recommendation for you as they have well over 100 differently spec'd pumps available.

Appreciate the tag! We do have quite a few pumps.

 

[Deadalus]

The Spike Flow has a flow rate of 9 gallons a minute. That's 540 gph. It is advertised as having the highest flow rate for pumps in the class of HB mag style pumps. I built a keg and carboy washer which has a 1/2" NPT CIP ball driven by an 800 gph Vivosun immersible pump. I wouldn't go lower on the gph for my CIP ball. The pump is usually ~$20 and for a few more dollars one could up the gph or for somewhat more a sump pump could be had.

Interestingly, I recently picked up a SS Brewtech keg washer. I haven't used it yet and don't have it in front of me but it's a miniaturized unit. The pump I know is tiny and I believe the rotary ball is too.

In a system with 2 pumps you can up the pressure by plumbing them in series. You'd want them to each have at least 7 gpm in my opinion which would be about 840 gph.

 

[Broken Crow]

The Spike Flow has a flow rate of 9 gallons a minute. That's 540 gph. It is advertised as having the highest flow rate for pumps in the class of HB mag style pumps. I built a keg and carboy washer which has a 1/2" NPT CIP ball driven by an 800 gph Vivosun immersible pump. I wouldn't go lower on the gph for my CIP ball. The pump is usually ~$20 and for a few more dollars one could up the gph or for somewhat more a sump pump could be had.

Interestingly, I recently picked up a SS Brewtech keg washer. I haven't used it yet and don't have it in front of me but it's a miniaturized unit. The pump I know is tiny and I believe the rotary ball is too.

In a system with 2 pumps you can up the pressure by plumbing them in series. You'd want them to each have at least 7 gpm in my opinion which would be about 840 gph.

The smaller size balls need less... SSBrewtech's and generic 'minis' look to work with 7-9 gallons per minute:
https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/cip-spray-ball-3-tc-assembly?variant=32374267740231
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001316578277.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.25.2bf023b3MagGxc&algo_pvid=38c50b8e-1174-4b7b-aba2-696ae1e82b2f&algo_exp_id=38c50b8e-1174-4b7b-aba2-696ae1e82b2f-24&pdp_ext_f={"order":"5","eval":"1"}&pdp_npi=4@dis!CAD!27.58!27.58!!!19.51!19.51!@2101e9a217467179672776387e9ddd!10000015700562750!sea!CA!0!ABX&curPageLogUid=wgyTJzMrhlqT&utparam-url=scene:search|query_from:
One pump spec I've always been concerned with it temp rating...my own is rated for up to 154°F (which is the temp range that most plastics start to crap out)... I've seen many washing units on here with pond pumps rated for anywhere from the 90°-120° range and have wondered how long they'd last, so Thank You very much @Zenmeister ! ..

I bought it from Amazon eight years ago, and it works great, even in water with temps around 165 deg F. It spins the hell out of the CIP ball, and it can clean so much better than I ever could, especially in my Unitank.
Amazon.com/Superior-Pump-91250-Submersible-Thermoplastic

I looked up the manual for that pump: https://media-www.canadiantire.ca/m...62-1-95ff3e14-3b72-4682-a839-a90b870a64c8.pdf
and it's rated for 120°

I always like to see things that can survive longer than their specs suggest.

 

[Zenmeister]

I looked up the manual for that pump: https://media-www.canadiantire.ca/m...62-1-95ff3e14-3b72-4682-a839-a90b870a64c8.pdf
and it's rated for 120°

Fascinating. All this time I have been using it between 160-165 F and it has never had a hiccup.

 

[Whisky River]

If I recall correctly there were some posts a long time ago about the seals on some pumps breaking down with the heat and releasing the pumps internal grease/lubricant. Apparently cleaning that stuff off the inside of a keg isn't much fun.

It’s hard to know when those specifications really matter and when they don’t. It reminds me of the pumps used in the PicoBrew system which were used to move near boiling liquid in that system without issue for years, but when people contacted the pump manufacturer they stated unequivocally that none of their pumps were rated for over 140 degrees. I guess you never know.

 

[Deadalus]

The smaller size balls need less... SSBrewtech's and generic 'minis' look to work with 7-9 gallons per minute:
https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/cip-spray-ball-3-tc-assembly?variant=32374267740231
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001316578277.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.25.2bf023b3MagGxc&algo_pvid=38c50b8e-1174-4b7b-aba2-696ae1e82b2f&algo_exp_id=38c50b8e-1174-4b7b-aba2-696ae1e82b2f-24&pdp_ext_f={"order":"5","eval":"1"}&pdp_npi=4@dis!CAD!27.58!27.58!!!19.51!19.51!@2101e9a217467179672776387e9ddd!10000015700562750!sea!CA!0!ABX&curPageLogUid=wgyTJzMrhlqT&utparam-url=scene:search|query_from:
One pump spec I've always been concerned with it temp rating...my own is rated for up to 154°F (which is the temp range that most plastics start to crap out)... I've seen many washing units on here with pond pumps rated for anywhere from the 90°-120° range and have wondered how long they'd last, so Thank You very much @Zenmeister ! ..

I looked up the manual for that pump: https://media-www.canadiantire.ca/m...62-1-95ff3e14-3b72-4682-a839-a90b870a64c8.pdf
and it's rated for 120°
View attachment 875033
I always like to see things that can survive longer than their specs suggest.

I'll have to measure it when I get home but the SSBT 3" TC you linked is not the one on the keg washer. Here's the link for it, look at the pictures closely you'll get an idea how small their ball is and the pump is around soup can sized. When I built my keg/carboy washer I searched around for slim rotary balls and I the one I found was on Amazon. When I got the SSBT washer, I was amused since it was smaller. Not sure if they sell the ball but I found a replacement pump (somewhere) so I know if the pump breaks I can replace it. I may have pulled the pump model number off the pump itself.

I haven't used water hotter than 125-130F with my Vivosun pump. I do have them in my glycol chiller though and no problems as of yet.

I have a 1.5" TC rotary sprayer and it did not work with a brew pump. I think I tried my Spike but it may have been the Riptide as it sits closer to the fermenters. I may try it in series myself.

 

[Zenmeister]

Ok, so I beat Deadulus to the punch, and measured my SSBT spray head, and for giggles took a pic of their pump as well. The spray head is about 9/16" or about 13 mm (even tho it looks 5/8" in the pic... The angle the camera to the spray head exaggerates that size) so it is very small.
FWIW the pump is rated only to go to about 140 degrees F, and trust me, it doesn't like to go much more that. Ask me how I know...

 

[DuncB]

I have a 1.5 inch CIP spray ball and it works well on a 1200 litre per hour pond pump.

 

[Whisky River]

Ok, so I beat Deadulus to the punch, and measured my SSBT spray head, and for giggles took a pic of their pump as well. The spray head is about 9/16" or about 13 mm (even tho it looks 5/8" in the pic... The angle the camera to the spray head exaggerates that size) so it is very small.
FWIW the pump is rated only to go to about 140 degrees F, and trust me, it doesn't like to go much more that. Ask me how I know...
View attachment 875059

How do you know? Seriously I have one too and now I’m wondering what happened over 140?

FYI McMaster sells several of the tiny spray balls that only take a few GPM, unfortunately they cost around $250 each!

 

[Deadalus]

Ok, so I beat Deadulus to the punch, and measured my SSBT spray head, and for giggles took a pic of their pump as well. The spray head is about 9/16" or about 13 mm (even tho it looks 5/8" in the pic... The angle the camera to the spray head exaggerates that size) so it is very small.
FWIW the pump is rated only to go to about 140 degrees F, and trust me, it doesn't like to go much more that. Ask me how I know...
View attachment 875059

I got 19/32" with calipers.

My keg/carboy rotary ball was 63/64"~1.0". This fits a carboy.

My 1.5"TC rotary ball was 1.25". It spun with a brew pump but didn't clean very well. It was off centered and had the coil in which could have contributed to poor performance byt the coil itself didn't clean well nor the fermenter in general.

 

[Zenmeister]

How do you know? Seriously I have one too and now I’m wondering what happened over 140?

I purchased the SS Kegwasher when it was introduced, and back then was washing the kegs at about 150-160 degrees F. Pump just froze up and died. As it was still under warranty, I got a replacement pump free, and it too died.
Those early pumps were notoriously bad, but after pumping at 138-140 degrees F the pumps would still die, but would take about 18 months instead of about six months to crap out. My existing pump is still running fine, at about 24 months, but is showing signs of going the way of its kindred souls. (Shutting down in the middle of a cleaning on the second or third keg)

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Lots of traction on this thread since I last posted. Here's the picture I promised of my keg washer, it works great.

No idea about all the specs, it just works. The spinning CIP came from Amazon and the submersible pump/plumbing from Menards. It's like a fifth HP.

 

[Broken Crow]

Lots of traction on this thread since I last posted. Here's the picture I promised of my keg washer, it works great.

No idea about all the specs, it just works. The spinning CIP came from Amazon and the submersible pump/plumbing from Menards. It's like a fifth HP.

Can you take a closeup of the spec label on the pump and if it's not incovenient; the spray-ball on a measuring tape?
I'm very slowly working on my next-gen kegwasher which will be made from an upside down squat sanke with a heating element and I'd really like to use my PBW at 150° instead of the 130° limit I set myself for the longevity of the pump I currently use. I tend to do my kegs in batches of 3-6 at a time, hence my desire to maintain hot temps.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Can you take a closeup of the spec label on the pump and if it's not incovenient; the spray-ball on a measuring tape?
I'm very slowly working on my next-gen kegwasher which will be made from an upside down squat sanke with a heating element and I'd really like to use my PBW at 150° instead of the 130° limit I set myself for the longevity of the pump I currently use. I tend to do my kegs in batches of 3-6 at a time, hence my desire to maintain hot temps.

The CIP is 1.5" diameter x 4.5" long, 1/2" pipe thread, stainless steel. It's in a 12" pipe. There's a tee at the pump for gas/liquid QD's. I can search Amazon for the CIP, I have had it for years washing hundreds of kegs. Pump is that old too.

 

[Broken Crow]

The CIP is 1.5" diameter x 4.5" long, 1/2" pipe thread, stainless steel. It's in a 12" pipe. There's a tee at the pump for gas/liquid QD's. I can search Amazon for the CIP, I have had it for years washing hundreds of kegs. Pump is that old too.

I'm impressed! ..another pump probably exceeding it's specs!
Here's from the manual:

...And 2 questions: 1/What temps do you use it at? 2/Have you ever triggered the thermal overload protection?
Thanks a million for the specs!

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

I'm impressed! ..another pump probably exceeding it's specs!
Here's from the manual:
View attachment 875126
View attachment 875127
...And 2 questions: 1/What temps do you use it at? 2/Have you ever triggered the thermal overload protection?
Thanks a million for the specs!

It's never tripped although sometimes it won't pump, rarely though. After a couple switching it comes on. I flush it with clear water after use.

I use PBW mixed per instruction at about 120 degrees F. I don't pre heat the water, what ever the home water heat outputs. I don't strive for hot water as the force and cleaner does most of the work.

Every time I dig it out I expect it to be dead but it fires up. I really need to have a spare ready.

Anything else you need, let me know. Always try to help!