I am confused about starters and starter calculators.

[WoodlandBrew]

No one wants to take a crack at this? I really am puzzled by the frequently made recommendation to pitch a White Labs vial or Wyeast smack pack into a mere 1L of 1.040 wort when making a starter. It seems to me that either package should be more than capable of handling a 2-4L starter directly, or am I missing something here?

I don't think you are missing anything.

1 vial or smack pack is 100 billion cells.

100 billion cells in 1L of 10°P wort will yield about 200 billion cells in about two days.

100 billion cells in 4L of 10°P wort will yield about 500 billion cells in about four days.

The recommendations should be based on how many cells are needed and how much time is available. Another consideration may be the volume that the brewer's stir plate can handle.

 

[ACbrewer]

Yeah, I've seen this recommendation a bunch of times, too, but it doesn't make sense to me. After all, a single package of liquid yeast is supposed to provide enough cells to ferment 2-2.5gal of wort, and I'd be willing to bet that everyone here has successfully made 5gal. of beer with just one smack pack or vial, so how come the same amount of yeast can't handle more than a 1-2L starter?!?

No one wants to take a crack at this? I really am puzzled by the frequently made recommendation to pitch a White Labs vial or Wyeast smack pack into a mere 1L of 1.040 wort when making a starter. It seems to me that either package should be more than capable of handling a 2-4L starter directly, or am I missing something here?

I'll take a stab at it for you. (Although I've seen someone else has posted in reply).

1. they used to sell yeast as propogator (must use starter) and activator (no starter sometimes ok) sizes. Today I think only activator sizes are sold. 100Billion+ cells. Some older refernces - by older here, I mean only a couple of years like pre 2010 - should then be evaluated in those terms.

2. At some point you go from making a starter to making beer. I don't know if it is at the 2.5 gallon or 1 gallon or what. But the growth curve of cells begins to flat line even though there is more sugar to consume, and the by products of growth begin to resemble beer more than starter. If I recall correctly doing a 1L then 2L starter results in more end cells than a 3L starter.

3. Lastly it is a measure of 'efficencies' by which I mean does it make more sense in terms of cells and wort used to go one way or the other. Now for those of us doing 5 gallons, it may not matter, but liek some other elements of the homebrewer we borrow knowledge from mass producers (aka craft of BMC) and for them, because over the course of production and volumes, it makes more sense to do step up starters than it does to make a big batch as you suggest - more sense in terms of $$$.

note- my work here is reasoned guesses, so it could be wrong, but there you have some suggestions

 

[whoaru99]

I have no idea about the math behind yeastcalc, but in general you are not really increasing your viable yeast cell count by repitching on the same volume with the same SG wort. It is possible you will get some additional cells due to increasing the number of healthy cells you start with, but it is much better to increase volume.

No doubt it is better for growth factor to increase the volume. But, the example 1L to 1L is almost 50% increase in cell count. If that's enough for your needs and fits the equipment you have I can't see a reason why not.

 

[mtnagel]

Definitely some interesting discussion in this thread. Subscribing to learn more.

When people say "1L starter" what the hell are they talking about? I have a stir plate and a 1Lflask. I wish I had a bigger flask but I don't.

Nate, if you want bigger flasks, I just bought a couple 2L flasks from Amazon for $16 (free shipping with prime). Used them last night to make a couple starters with rinsed yeast.

 

[MagicSmoker]

...
100 billion cells in 1L of 10°P wort will yield about 200 billion cells in about two days.

100 billion cells in 4L of 10°P wort will yield about 500 billion cells in about four days....

Thanks for replying, Woodlandbrew... And also for your blog, which is a wealth of interesting data and knowledge. Much is still a bit over my head, but I hope that will eventually change as I gain more experience myself.

It sounds like pitching a single smack pack or vial to 4L of 1.040 wort at least 4 days in advance is the way to go. And from reading your blog it seems that it is best to refrigerate the starter after high krausen to encourage the yeast to build up glycogen and trehalose before going dormant. When its time to use the yeast, decant off the "beer" then pitch the still-chilled slurry directly to the wort, right?

 

[MagicSmoker]

...
1. they used to sell yeast as propogator (must use starter) and activator (no starter sometimes ok) sizes. Today I think only activator sizes are sold. 100Billion+ cells. Some older refernces - by older here, I mean only a couple of years like pre 2010 - should then be evaluated in those terms.

Okay - that makes sense, too. Still, there are many recent posts here saying you need to do step up starters for a garden variety 5gal of 1.060 wort. I'm really getting into the nuances involved in making beer, but let's face it: at some point this stops being fun and starts being work...

2. At some point you go from making a starter to making beer. I don't know if it is at the 2.5 gallon or 1 gallon or what. But the growth curve of cells begins to flat line even though there is more sugar to consume, and the by products of growth begin to resemble beer more than starter. If I recall correctly doing a 1L then 2L starter results in more end cells than a 3L starter....

Interesting... So pitching ~100B cells to 1L of 1.040 wort is going to result in lots of aerobic growth and very little alcohol production, while pitching the same number of cells to 4L of 1.040 wort may result in some anaerobic growth (ie - beer production) as well? Is the concern about this because the "beer" produced won't taste too good, or more because the yeast will have switched metabolic pathways from aerobic to anaerobic and therefore be less prepared to be pitched into well-oxygenated wort?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Thanks for replying, Woodlandbrew... And also for your blog, which is a wealth of interesting data and knowledge. Much is still a bit over my head, but I hope that will eventually change as I gain more experience myself.

It sounds like pitching a single smack pack or vial to 4L of 1.040 wort at least 4 days in advance is the way to go. And from reading your blog it seems that it is best to refrigerate the starter after high krausen to encourage the yeast to build up glycogen and trehalose before going dormant. When its time to use the yeast, decant off the "beer" then pitch the still-chilled slurry directly to the wort, right?

Thanks for taking the time to read the blog. You've got it right about crashing the starter. To build up glycogen it's important to let it run to completion.

For what it's worth, my experience is that a 1 liter to 2 liter stepped starter produces the same number of cells as one 3 liter starter.

 

[stratslinger]

Okay - that makes sense, too. Still, there are many recent posts here saying you need to do step up starters for a garden variety 5gal of 1.060 wort. I'm really getting into the nuances involved in making beer, but let's face it: at some point this stops being fun and starts being work...

Agreed, but I think a lot of this comes into play in situations like that posed by the OP - many of us just plain aren't equipped for a 4L starter, so we are faced with the choice of either buying a bigger flask (and hoping it'll fit our stirplates) or following a step up routine.

Couple that with the fact that, in many cases, stepping up from a 1L starter to a 2L starter will produce more cells than just pitching to a 4L starter anyway (really - play with yeastcalc!), and dropping the cash on that 4L flask starts to look like a less attractive proposition.

If you've got one already, by all means use it! It'll work! But if you're in the same boat as the rest of us and don't have that equipment, then stepping up kind of IS a necessity.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

many of us just plain aren't equipped for a 4L starter

Right with you on that point.

(really - play with yeastcalc)

It's unfortunate that playing with a model is some times the only opportunity people have to understanding cell growth. This is really working with very polarized information.

In my experience the Mr. Malty / Jamil equation in yeast calc does not match reality. See here:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2013/03/starter-calculators-revisited.html


Don't just take my word for it either. Talk to others that have done cell counts, or get a microscope.

 

[Denny]

No one wants to take a crack at this? I really am puzzled by the frequently made recommendation to pitch a White Labs vial or Wyeast smack pack into a mere 1L of 1.040 wort when making a starter. It seems to me that either package should be more than capable of handling a 2-4L starter directly, or am I missing something here?

Hey, I agree with you, as does my experience.

 

[Kaiser]

So I just took my count and it looks like I am falling in between Jamil & Braukaiser. I have 7.3 Billion cells in my 110ml starter.

was that for a 10 Plato wort? I'm surprised you saw a growth of only 0.7 B/g. When I start from slant my 3rd stage is usually 200-300 ml 10 Plato wort which gives me on the order of 50 B cells on the stir plate.

Kai

 

[ACbrewer]

For what it's worth, my experience is that a 1 liter to 2 liter stepped starter produces the same number of cells as one 3 liter starter.

I will yield on this, as I've not done the actual experimentation, but only done the reading. 'Field' work trumps theory work any day.

 

[Aaron1983]

I just dissolve 1/2lb of light DME into 1600mL of water, cool, pitch, and put it on the stir plate with a foil lid for 48 hours. For 90% of my brews this works out perfectly fine.

 

[ACbrewer]

Okay - that makes sense, too. Still, there are many recent posts here saying you need to do step up starters for a garden variety 5gal of 1.060 wort. I'm really getting into the nuances involved in making beer, but let's face it: at some point this stops being fun and starts being work...

Yeah usually when I have to bottle.

Interesting... So pitching ~100B cells to 1L of 1.040 wort is going to result in lots of aerobic growth and very little alcohol production, while pitching the same number of cells to 4L of 1.040 wort may result in some anaerobic growth (ie - beer production) as well? Is the concern about this because the "beer" produced won't taste too good, or more because the yeast will have switched metabolic pathways from aerobic to anaerobic and therefore be less prepared to be pitched into well-oxygenated wort?

Honestly? I'm not sure, it could be because you can only get so much O2 into the wort, or some other limiter. And that things like O2 is used both for sterol production (I think it is sterol/cell walls) and for energy production. It could be as the ratio of starter volume to starting cells grows larger, that more O2 and other nutrients go to yeast life over yeast reproduction. - and I'm guessing here. But that is my guess and I'm sticking by it until someone else corrects me :cross:

 

[MagicSmoker]

I don't know about the OP, but I sure found this thread helpful...

My LHBS just has 1L flasks so I bought a couple, with the intent of doing starters and some stovetop "single bottle" tests. Then I saw that blog post by Bertus Brewery about dry hopping Bud Light to test different hops and hop combos and decided that looked a lot easier/speedier.

 

[NcBrewer35]

was that for a 10 Plato wort? I'm surprised you saw a growth of only 0.7 B/g. When I start from slant my 3rd stage is usually 200-300 ml 10 Plato wort which gives me on the order of 50 B cells on the stir plate.

Kai

Thanks for the response Kai, I am using a 9 plato wort and I only let the starter go for 24 hours. Could this be the reason I only saw that much growth? I have not seen any of the calculators out there giving recommended times for starters.

When I pitched the 7 billion cells into a 1100ml starter I only had 59 billion cells after 24 hours. How long do you keep your starters going before stepping them up?

For what its worth I went from a slant to 15ml of wort and had 27.5 million (.275 billion) From here I stepped up to 110ml of wort and ended with the 7 billion cells. From here I pitched into 1100 ml of wort and ended with 58.8 billion cells which I cold crashed for a day and then decanted spent wort and pitched last night into 3000ml of wort.. All of these steps went for 24 hours before I stepped them up.

 

[Kaiser]

24 hrs may not be long enough, depending on the temperature. I always let my starters go for 48 hrs until the kraeusen is gone.

Kai