I am confused about starters and starter calculators.

[natewv]

When people say "1L starter" what the hell are they talking about? I have a stir plate and a 1Lflask. I wish I had a bigger flask but I don't.

When I read "how to make a starter" threads or the Wiki I feel like I have always been told to use 2 cups of water with 1/2 a cup of DME. That's like a 300ml starter.

When I go to yeastcalc, I am asked for my "starter volume" (mr. malty just says I need a 1 L starter, usually). What does that mean? There's the stepping option on yeastcalc, which makes sense, but I don't understand how "big" my starter needs to be. I just feel like the calculators are nice and all, but they don't complete the circle and actually tell yo uhow to do it. For example yeastcalc says mix the "appropriate" amount of water and DME...why would tat be a user-defined value?

I guess what I'm asking, is given my equipment, let's say I want to make a starter for a 1.6 or so 5.25G ale. I'll use yeastcalc, I guess I can step it, but I haven't really been able to determine what "size" I need to start with that won't hurt the yeast. If I need to step it, I will, I just don't see any direction. What am I missing?

 

[weirdboy]

Here's an easy rule of thumb:

You need 100g DME per 1L of starter you intend to make.


So, put 100g of DME into your flask, then fill it up with cold water up to the 600ml mark or so, boil it for a bit, then top it off with sanitized water to the 1L mark. You can, of course, just fill it to the 1L mark before you boil, but it's easy to get boilovers that way unless you're careful.


If you are looking to step up a starter, a good rule of thumb is to double the size every step.

 

[peanasky]

Here's what I do, it may not be exactly equivalent, but it seems to work for me:

When I'm told I need a 1L starter, you can essentially do 2 500mL starters. Make a 500mL starter, let it finish, cold-crash (in the fridge), decant the old start liquid off leaving yeast behind, and then use that in a new 500mL starter.

As for the SG of the starter, that more depends on your recipe and the age/condition of the yeast. The older/smaller amount of yeast you have, you want to start off with a lower SG on the first round, then higher on the second. Also, a bigger beer will need more yeast, so you may have to do a few extra "rounds" or "step-ups".

Edit - or do what weirdboy said to get your 1L starter

 

[beertroll]

A 1L starter is 1 liter of ~1.035 wort. From a typical White Labs or Wyeast package, you probably want to limit your first step to about 1L. Some people go straight to a big 2-4L starter successfully, but I've seen quite a few good sources recommend against making a jump like that. I believe the standard practice for stepping up is to double your starter size with each step.

Generally, you shouldn't need to make huge starters unless you're really brewing a big beer. For a 1.060 5gal batch, 1L should be plenty.

 

[weirdboy]

Here's what I do, it may not be exactly equivalent, but it seems to work for me:

When I'm told I need a 1L starter, you can essentially do 2 500mL starters. Make a 500mL starter, let it finish, cold-crash (in the fridge), decant the old start liquid off leaving yeast behind, and then use that in a new 500mL starter.

Don't do that. It doesn't work like you think it does. You may get a few new viable cells, but for the most part it is a complete waste of effort unless you actually expand the volume of wort the yeast have to work with. The yeast grow to a sufficient density occupy that volume of wort, so decanting and adding more wort isn't going to increase the amount of viable cells.

 

[Denny]

A 1L starter is 1 liter of ~1.035 wort. From a typical White Labs or Wyeast package, you probably want to limit your first step to about 1L. Some people go straight to a big 2-4L starter successfully, but I've seen quite a few good sources recommend against making a jump like that. I believe the standard practice for stepping up is to double your starter size with each step.

Yeast manufacturers claim that a vial or smackpack is good for 5 gal. of 1.050 wort. While we all doubt that, they're certainly fine for 3 qt. of 1.035 wort. My own experience over hundreds of batches bears that out.

 

[peanasky]

Don't do that. It doesn't work like you think it does. You may get a few new viable cells, but for the most part it is a complete waste of effort unless you actually expand the volume of wort the yeast have to work with. The yeast grow to a sufficient density occupy that volume of wort, so decanting and adding more wort isn't going to increase the amount of viable cells.

Well then, thank you. Learn something new everyday

 

[MagicSmoker]

...From a typical White Labs or Wyeast package, you probably want to limit your first step to about 1L. Some people go straight to a big 2-4L starter successfully, but I've seen quite a few good sources recommend against making a jump like that....

Yeah, I've seen this recommendation a bunch of times, too, but it doesn't make sense to me. After all, a single package of liquid yeast is supposed to provide enough cells to ferment 2-2.5gal of wort, and I'd be willing to bet that everyone here has successfully made 5gal. of beer with just one smack pack or vial, so how come the same amount of yeast can't handle more than a 1-2L starter?!?

 

[BobbiLynn]

Well then, thank you. Learn something new everyday

+1 to this. Clicked on this topic because I am confused too. Thanks in advance for any and all additional info and info thus far.

 

[natewv]

Here's an easy rule of thumb:

You need 100g DME per 1L of starter you intend to make.


So, put 100g of DME into your flask, then fill it up with cold water up to the 600ml mark or so, boil it for a bit, then top it off with sanitized water to the 1L mark. You can, of course, just fill it to the 1L mark before you boil, but it's easy to get boilovers that way unless you're careful.

I'm going to just use a regular pot to boil and use the flask for the stir plate.

So what you are saying is a 1 L starter is made with approximately 1 L of wort. However if I were to cold crash and decant the starter wort...that 100 ml or whatever of slurry is equivalent to 1 L of wort?

 

[ACbrewer]

I'm going to just use a regular pot to boil and use the flask for the stir plate.

So what you are saying is a 1 L starter is made with approximately 1 L of wort. However if I were to cold crash and decant the starter wort...that 100 ml or whatever of slurry is equivalent to 1 L of wort?

Yes, the starter volume recomended is the wort volume of the starter.

If your starter is small enough (about 1L on 5 gallons - or ~5% total beer volume) you can get away with not decanting, but it is recomended you decant. After all, starter beer is basically oxygenated beer. While at 5% it may not be noticed and the yeast may do more chemical reactions with it, it is better to not add it. - (I've had to add because a wheat yeast wouldn't floculate fast enough, so I pitched it all).

 

[zachattack]

So what you are saying is a 1 L starter is made with approximately 1 L of wort. However if I were to cold crash and decant the starter wort...that 100 ml or whatever of slurry is equivalent to 1 L of wort?

The amount of yeast growth/reproduction is dependent on the gravity and volume of the wort. If you have a bigger starter, you're going to end up with more yeast in the end. The decanted slurry is what you're after. If you have a 2L starter, you'll have more of that slurry than if you have a 1L starter.

In your example, the 100mL slurry isn't equivalent to 1L of starter wort, it's the product of a starter made with 1L of starter wort.

 

[EyePeeA]

Don't do that. It doesn't work like you think it does. You may get a few new viable cells, but for the most part it is a complete waste of effort unless you actually expand the volume of wort the yeast have to work with. The yeast grow to a sufficient density occupy that volume of wort, so decanting and adding more wort isn't going to increase the amount of viable cells.

Wait, are you saying that stepping up a starter doesn't work if both steps contain the same volume of wort (even though the 2nd step is fresh wort pitched atop a slurry of new daughter cells from the 1st step)? This is more sugar for the yeast to eat and multiply so I don't understand why it wouldn't work.

In other words, are you saying that the below process won't work as planned, and you'll just be left with somewhere around 190-200 billion cells???...

 

[stratslinger]

Don't do that. It doesn't work like you think it does. You may get a few new viable cells, but for the most part it is a complete waste of effort unless you actually expand the volume of wort the yeast have to work with. The yeast grow to a sufficient density occupy that volume of wort, so decanting and adding more wort isn't going to increase the amount of viable cells.

Not according to YeastCalc... Going by that calculator, doing a stepped starter, .5L to .5L, yields 216 billion cells (if you start from 100billion), where doing a straight 1L strarter yields 224. Granted, there's a LOT less growth in the second step than the first, but you still get in the same ballpark for the final yield.

Either that calculator is flawed, or stepping as he suggested would be a pretty passable substitute.

 

[weirdboy]

I have no idea about the math behind yeastcalc, but in general you are not really increasing your viable yeast cell count by repitching on the same volume with the same SG wort. It is possible you will get some additional cells due to increasing the number of healthy cells you start with, but it is much better to increase volume.

 

[TrickyDick]

Someone posted 100g of DME in 1L. On that yeast calc page, there is a small side box that tells you how much DME in oz, to use for a certain size starter and certain SG. Easy. They also have a help page that discusses the step-up process, but is essentially the same info as stated here. But in greater detail.

I had a question about a starter I made recently. I planned to step up for enough cells for my 11gal batch of 1.043 OG stout from two fairly fresh packs of PAC-man yeast.
I put in the fridge to cold crash the first stage, but it had not fully flocculated or settled out by the time I was needing to step it up with the second dose of wort. I didn't want to lose any yeast, so what I did, was to transfer the entire volume into a larger flask, and then add additional cooled wort into the larger volume flask.

Does this make any difference in the resultant amount of viable yeast cells versus decanting first? Also, why would it make a difference between two 1.5L starter steps, versus a single 3L starter?

One of these days, I'm going to brew a batch of 1.035 wort and pressure can it for making starters. I always say that but then I never actually do it! If you're going to pressure can it, do you need to bother boiling it first? Maybe I should do a search on this separately...

TD

 

[NcBrewer35]

Wait, are you saying that stepping up a starter doesn't work if both steps contain the same volume of wort (even though the 2nd step is fresh wort pitched atop a slurry of new daughter cells from the 1st step)? This is more sugar for the yeast to eat and multiply so I don't understand why it wouldn't work.

In other words, are you saying that the below process won't work as planned, and you'll just be left with somewhere around 190-200 billion cells???...

I think what weirdboy was saying was that the growth was minimal. If you look at the pic you posted you will see that your cell count didnt increase very much. You go from 179 billion cells to 260 billion when you pitch it into the same amount of wort.

Your growth factor was .45 = very little growth. Typically speaking if you want to have the greatest impact on yeast growth you increase pitching volumes by factors of 10. This doesn't mean it the only way, it just means that's the best way to have the highest growth factor.

The calculators work for a baseline but there are some discrepancies between all the people who are published on yeast. Chris White, Jamil Zainasheff(sp?) and Braukaiser all have different mathematical calculations for how they arrive to their estimates. The real question is who is right?

I have recently purchased all I need to do yeast cell counting (which is a lot let me tell you...) and plan on figuring out which method seems to be the most accurate. I have an LCD microscope, hemocytometer, and all the other various equipment needed and just recently began this process. Took me a while to figure out how to do everything but I did my first official cell count last night.

I took a scrape from a slant and made a 10ml starter which I built up for 24 hours. My first count thus far is 275 Million cells. I pitched this amount last night into 110ml of fresh wort on a stir plate. By Jamils estimates I will have 3.29 Billion cells, by Braukaiser I will have 15 Billion.

Thats a huge difference! 3.29 Billion as opposed to 15 billion. Jamil is giving a growth factor of 11.6 and Braukaiser is giving a growth factor of 53.8.

I will report back later tonight to see what my growth was.

 

[TrickyDick]

I have been contemplating buying the stuff do to my own yeast counts. How much did it all cost?

TD

 

[natewv]

Yes, the starter volume recommended is the wort volume of the starter.

Thanks. It's so obvious now, but I just can't believe I have never read that sentence before.

 

[NcBrewer35]

I took a scrape from a slant and made a 10ml starter which I built up for 24 hours. My first count thus far is 275 Million cells. I pitched this amount last night into 110ml of fresh wort on a stir plate. By Jamils estimates I will have 3.29 Billion cells, by Braukaiser I will have 15 Billion.

Thats a huge difference! 3.29 Billion as opposed to 15 billion. Jamil is giving a growth factor of 11.6 and Braukaiser is giving a growth factor of 53.8.

I will report back later tonight to see what my growth was.

So I just took my count and it looks like I am falling in between Jamil & Braukaiser. I have 7.3 Billion cells in my 110ml starter.

I just pitched this into a 1000ml starter on a stir plate, and will report my findings tomorrow. Jamil says I will have 54 Billion, Braukaiser says 147 Billion.

My guess is that I will end up around 100 Billion.

 

[NcBrewer35]

I have been contemplating buying the stuff do to my own yeast counts. How much did it all cost?

TD

Microscope was $179.99, Hemocytometer about $40, 10 micro-ml pippette $21, 100 micro-ml pipette $21, 1000 replacement pipette tips $15 (these will last forever), 100 disposable 3ml graduated pipettes $8, test tubes $10, blue stain for viability testing $8. All-in-all about $300

 

[beertroll]

Yeast manufacturers claim that a vial or smackpack is good for 5 gal. of 1.050 wort. While we all doubt that, they're certainly fine for 3 qt. of 1.035 wort. My own experience over hundreds of batches bears that out.

My understanding is that doing steps will give you more total cells in the end than just going straight to 4L; yeast health is about the same either way. I don't have any personal data to support that, and I rarely go much higher than 1L anyway. I certainly don't have the microbiology knowledge to have strong convictions about one method or the other.

 

[Denny]

My understanding is that doing steps will give you more total cells in the end than just going straight to 4L; yeast health is about the same either way. I don't have any personal data to support that, and I rarely go much higher than 1L anyway. I certainly don't have the microbiology knowledge to have strong convictions about one method or the other.

And if I need those extra cells, I do a stepped starter...sure. But for almost all of the beers I make I can get a sufficient cell count wih single 2-3 qt. starter so there's nothing to be gained from doing steps.

 

[ACbrewer]

My understanding is that doing steps will give you more total cells in the end than just going straight to 4L; yeast health is about the same either way. I don't have any personal data to support that, and I rarely go much higher than 1L anyway. I certainly don't have the microbiology knowledge to have strong convictions about one method or the other.

Based on the curve in YEAST I go about 1 to 1.5 L when doing a vial/slap pack. Much more and you don't get as much growth per L, much less and you don't get much growth period.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Here is a comparison of popular yeast calculators and over 50 cell counts:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2013/03/starter-calculators-revisited.html

Your starter may be effected by the "curve" if you don't let your starter run to completion, or if initial cell density is over 150 million per ml.

 

[WDT]

So if I understand correctly...

1L water, 100g dme, boil cool and pitch. Wait 1 day on a stir plate.

Refrigerate, decant spent wort

Add slurry to:
2L water, 200g dme, boil cool, then 1 day on stir plate

Refrigerate, decant spent wort

Etc.... Correct? Or am just not getting this.

 

[weirdboy]

So if I understand correctly...

1L water, 100g dme, boil cool and pitch. Wait 1 day on a stir plate.

Refrigerate, decant spent wort

Add slurry to:
2L water, 200g dme, boil cool, then 1 day on stir plate

Refrigerate, decant spent wort

Etc.... Correct? Or am just not getting this.

Pretty close, except it's not 100g DME + 1L water, more like 100g DME + enough water to make 1L wort. Same goes for the step to 2L, naturally.

 

[WDT]

Pretty close, except it's not 100g DME + 1L water, more like 100g DME + enough water to make 1L wort. Same goes for the step to 2L, naturally.

You are talking about the loss during the boil, right?

Make sure you have a consistent gravity, but keep increasing the volume by 1L...

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Either way works fine, you just get a slightly different starting gravity.
100g DME + 1L water ~= 9°P ~= 1.036
100g DME + 0.9L water* = 10°P ~= 1.040

* water has a density of 1.000(g/cm-1) at 4°C and is 0.9982(g/cm-1) at 20°C. For practical purposes 1L of water is 1kg.

It doen'st change things much, but both the Plato and Brix scales are w/w not w/v.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brix
http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue1.3/manning.html

DME has a density of about 1.5(g/cm-1), so 100g of DME and topping off to 1L will give you a gravity of about 9.7° P (1.039).

 

[MagicSmoker]

Yeah, I've seen this recommendation a bunch of times, too, but it doesn't make sense to me. After all, a single package of liquid yeast is supposed to provide enough cells to ferment 2-2.5gal of wort, and I'd be willing to bet that everyone here has successfully made 5gal. of beer with just one smack pack or vial, so how come the same amount of yeast can't handle more than a 1-2L starter?!?

No one wants to take a crack at this? I really am puzzled by the frequently made recommendation to pitch a White Labs vial or Wyeast smack pack into a mere 1L of 1.040 wort when making a starter. It seems to me that either package should be more than capable of handling a 2-4L starter directly, or am I missing something here?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

No one wants to take a crack at this? I really am puzzled by the frequently made recommendation to pitch a White Labs vial or Wyeast smack pack into a mere 1L of 1.040 wort when making a starter. It seems to me that either package should be more than capable of handling a 2-4L starter directly, or am I missing something here?

I don't think you are missing anything.

1 vial or smack pack is 100 billion cells.

100 billion cells in 1L of 10°P wort will yield about 200 billion cells in about two days.

100 billion cells in 4L of 10°P wort will yield about 500 billion cells in about four days.

The recommendations should be based on how many cells are needed and how much time is available. Another consideration may be the volume that the brewer's stir plate can handle.

 

[ACbrewer]

Yeah, I've seen this recommendation a bunch of times, too, but it doesn't make sense to me. After all, a single package of liquid yeast is supposed to provide enough cells to ferment 2-2.5gal of wort, and I'd be willing to bet that everyone here has successfully made 5gal. of beer with just one smack pack or vial, so how come the same amount of yeast can't handle more than a 1-2L starter?!?

No one wants to take a crack at this? I really am puzzled by the frequently made recommendation to pitch a White Labs vial or Wyeast smack pack into a mere 1L of 1.040 wort when making a starter. It seems to me that either package should be more than capable of handling a 2-4L starter directly, or am I missing something here?

I'll take a stab at it for you. (Although I've seen someone else has posted in reply).

1. they used to sell yeast as propogator (must use starter) and activator (no starter sometimes ok) sizes. Today I think only activator sizes are sold. 100Billion+ cells. Some older refernces - by older here, I mean only a couple of years like pre 2010 - should then be evaluated in those terms.

2. At some point you go from making a starter to making beer. I don't know if it is at the 2.5 gallon or 1 gallon or what. But the growth curve of cells begins to flat line even though there is more sugar to consume, and the by products of growth begin to resemble beer more than starter. If I recall correctly doing a 1L then 2L starter results in more end cells than a 3L starter.

3. Lastly it is a measure of 'efficencies' by which I mean does it make more sense in terms of cells and wort used to go one way or the other. Now for those of us doing 5 gallons, it may not matter, but liek some other elements of the homebrewer we borrow knowledge from mass producers (aka craft of BMC) and for them, because over the course of production and volumes, it makes more sense to do step up starters than it does to make a big batch as you suggest - more sense in terms of $$$.

note- my work here is reasoned guesses, so it could be wrong, but there you have some suggestions

 

[whoaru99]

I have no idea about the math behind yeastcalc, but in general you are not really increasing your viable yeast cell count by repitching on the same volume with the same SG wort. It is possible you will get some additional cells due to increasing the number of healthy cells you start with, but it is much better to increase volume.

No doubt it is better for growth factor to increase the volume. But, the example 1L to 1L is almost 50% increase in cell count. If that's enough for your needs and fits the equipment you have I can't see a reason why not.

 

[mtnagel]

Definitely some interesting discussion in this thread. Subscribing to learn more.

When people say "1L starter" what the hell are they talking about? I have a stir plate and a 1Lflask. I wish I had a bigger flask but I don't.

Nate, if you want bigger flasks, I just bought a couple 2L flasks from Amazon for $16 (free shipping with prime). Used them last night to make a couple starters with rinsed yeast.

 

[MagicSmoker]

...
100 billion cells in 1L of 10°P wort will yield about 200 billion cells in about two days.

100 billion cells in 4L of 10°P wort will yield about 500 billion cells in about four days....

Thanks for replying, Woodlandbrew... And also for your blog, which is a wealth of interesting data and knowledge. Much is still a bit over my head, but I hope that will eventually change as I gain more experience myself.

It sounds like pitching a single smack pack or vial to 4L of 1.040 wort at least 4 days in advance is the way to go. And from reading your blog it seems that it is best to refrigerate the starter after high krausen to encourage the yeast to build up glycogen and trehalose before going dormant. When its time to use the yeast, decant off the "beer" then pitch the still-chilled slurry directly to the wort, right?

 

[MagicSmoker]

...
1. they used to sell yeast as propogator (must use starter) and activator (no starter sometimes ok) sizes. Today I think only activator sizes are sold. 100Billion+ cells. Some older refernces - by older here, I mean only a couple of years like pre 2010 - should then be evaluated in those terms.

Okay - that makes sense, too. Still, there are many recent posts here saying you need to do step up starters for a garden variety 5gal of 1.060 wort. I'm really getting into the nuances involved in making beer, but let's face it: at some point this stops being fun and starts being work...

2. At some point you go from making a starter to making beer. I don't know if it is at the 2.5 gallon or 1 gallon or what. But the growth curve of cells begins to flat line even though there is more sugar to consume, and the by products of growth begin to resemble beer more than starter. If I recall correctly doing a 1L then 2L starter results in more end cells than a 3L starter....

Interesting... So pitching ~100B cells to 1L of 1.040 wort is going to result in lots of aerobic growth and very little alcohol production, while pitching the same number of cells to 4L of 1.040 wort may result in some anaerobic growth (ie - beer production) as well? Is the concern about this because the "beer" produced won't taste too good, or more because the yeast will have switched metabolic pathways from aerobic to anaerobic and therefore be less prepared to be pitched into well-oxygenated wort?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Thanks for replying, Woodlandbrew... And also for your blog, which is a wealth of interesting data and knowledge. Much is still a bit over my head, but I hope that will eventually change as I gain more experience myself.

It sounds like pitching a single smack pack or vial to 4L of 1.040 wort at least 4 days in advance is the way to go. And from reading your blog it seems that it is best to refrigerate the starter after high krausen to encourage the yeast to build up glycogen and trehalose before going dormant. When its time to use the yeast, decant off the "beer" then pitch the still-chilled slurry directly to the wort, right?

Thanks for taking the time to read the blog. You've got it right about crashing the starter. To build up glycogen it's important to let it run to completion.

For what it's worth, my experience is that a 1 liter to 2 liter stepped starter produces the same number of cells as one 3 liter starter.

 

[stratslinger]

Okay - that makes sense, too. Still, there are many recent posts here saying you need to do step up starters for a garden variety 5gal of 1.060 wort. I'm really getting into the nuances involved in making beer, but let's face it: at some point this stops being fun and starts being work...

Agreed, but I think a lot of this comes into play in situations like that posed by the OP - many of us just plain aren't equipped for a 4L starter, so we are faced with the choice of either buying a bigger flask (and hoping it'll fit our stirplates) or following a step up routine.

Couple that with the fact that, in many cases, stepping up from a 1L starter to a 2L starter will produce more cells than just pitching to a 4L starter anyway (really - play with yeastcalc!), and dropping the cash on that 4L flask starts to look like a less attractive proposition.

If you've got one already, by all means use it! It'll work! But if you're in the same boat as the rest of us and don't have that equipment, then stepping up kind of IS a necessity.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

many of us just plain aren't equipped for a 4L starter

Right with you on that point.

(really - play with yeastcalc)

It's unfortunate that playing with a model is some times the only opportunity people have to understanding cell growth. This is really working with very polarized information.

In my experience the Mr. Malty / Jamil equation in yeast calc does not match reality. See here:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2013/03/starter-calculators-revisited.html


Don't just take my word for it either. Talk to others that have done cell counts, or get a microscope.

 

[Denny]

No one wants to take a crack at this? I really am puzzled by the frequently made recommendation to pitch a White Labs vial or Wyeast smack pack into a mere 1L of 1.040 wort when making a starter. It seems to me that either package should be more than capable of handling a 2-4L starter directly, or am I missing something here?

Hey, I agree with you, as does my experience.