Hybrid Pilsner???

[EvilBrewing]

I'm brewing a Bohemian Pilsner.
Instead of using Czech Pils or Urquell Lager yeast, I'm using Mangrove Jack's Workhorse yeast.
Is it still considered a Pilsner?
Am I breaking any laws of nature?

 

[FlyDoctor]

I think you'll make a nice beer, but it won't be a Pilsner.

 

[EvilBrewing]

If not a Pilsner, what would it be classified?

 

[mkeckjr]

I don't necessarily agree with the previous poster. If the beer tastes like a Pilsner IT IS a Pilsner. Beer tasting/judging is a game of perception. As an example, I won a gold medal a few months ago at a competition in category 2, which is Pilsner, with a Bohemian style Pilsner that used German lager yeast instead of Czech. Point being, even if you don't use traditional ingredients/historical process, you may still have a good example of the style. All that matters is the way the final product tastes.

I see people on this forum often saying things like "if you don't use the traditional yeast/hops/malt, it's not a 'true' version" of whatever beer is being brewed. That simply is not true. It only matters if the beer TASTES out of style, so I say go for it. The Mangrove Jack webpage says it can ferment clean at 60 or so, so I'd try to see if it can go even lower, like 58 F. Good luck!

 

[FlyDoctor]

I agree with what your saying, but it seems unlikely to me that that workhorse yeast will leave the beer clean enough to really taste like a Pilsner. Now I have heard the Cal ale can be fermented low enough to behave like a lager yeast. I'm entirely fine with the taste, and not the ingredients, dictating "style" but I have low hopes of this year making a beer that tastes like a Pilsner.

My guess is that this beer will taste something between a pale ale (lacking American hop flavor and aroma) and a kolsch.

 

[mkeckjr]

FlyDoctor, I definitely agree with you if that was your point. I have yet to use the MJ Workhorse yeast for a lager, so I can't speak to it's fermentation character. It does sound a little too good to be true, like Cry Havoc. Similarly, I also agree that using Chico as a lager yeast is pretty reasonable because it's so damn clean. We have done experiments where we fermented the same IPA wort with W-34/70 at about 50 F and Chico at about 60 F, and after a lagering period that allowed the small amount of sulfur to completely age out of the lager version, they were very difficult to distinguish.

I will say that I'm interested in the final result of the original poster. I have looked around for decent experimental results with this strain versus other, standard strains like Chico and W-34/70, and can only find relatively vague anecdotal experiences. Interested EvilBrewing's experience; hopefully we can get update.

 

[WissahickonBrew]

Evil,

Rest assured your beers' classification as a Pilsener Style is not solely affected by MJ Workhorse yeast utilization. Malt / hop selection, fermentation / lagering temps and duration in combination with your yeast strain will decide. Assuming you researched and followed some standard recipe practice taking the former into account, you will be spot on the Pilsener track!

Pilsener is a great style and according to Daniels has a wide range of variations with regard to the factors listed previously! Good luck and keep us posted on the results!

Cheers!

 

[EvilBrewing]

Thanks for the comments and interest. I will be kegging the batch this weekend.
I'm drinking a similar batch but used SF-34 yeast and it tastes more like a Pale Ale and nothing like Pilsner Urquell.
I'll update everyone in a week.

 

[EvilBrewing]

OK. Same exact Pilsner Urquell recipe. Two batches with different yeast. The SF-34 batch tasted like a Pale Ale, but mellowed with age. The Workhorse batch tasted like a Pale Ale with cologne in it. Not sure what that's about.
Next time I do this recipe, I may try the triple decoction, instead of infusion,and use the Pilsner Urquell yeast.

 

[Nate R]

Hey all. Older thread here but i am looking to make a pilsner but just don't want to wait for the lagering time.
If i use a basic traditional reciepie with ingredients, but choose an ale yeast, will the flavor resemble a pilsner?

I am thinking an Imperial "pub" strain. It states it is highly flocculent.

Anybody have any successes doing a pilsner with a lager yeast time?

Thanks all!

 

[InLimbo]

Hey all. Older thread here but i am looking to make a pilsner but just don't want to wait for the lagering time.
If i use a basic traditional reciepie with ingredients, but choose an ale yeast, will the flavor resemble a pilsner?

The short answer is no. Use an ale strain if you want, but it's never going to have the proper lager characteristic. I guess I should ask, what is your intention: success in competition? Or just something you can drink at home? You will likely not have success in a BJCP sanctioned competition with judges whose palates are in theory very well defined. If you're just brewing something to drink at home, then your own palate may be more forgiving.

Legendary homebrewer Mike "Tasty" McDole made famous a method for a fast-fermented lager using lager yeast. I found a power point presentation of the method here:
https://www.bayareamashers.org/wp-c...ebrewCon16-Fast-Lager-Yeast-Fermentations.pdf

It should go without saying that the ability to control your fermentation temperatures very well is paramount when using this procedure.

 

[Nate R]

The short answer is no. Use an ale strain if you want, but it's never going to have the proper lager characteristic. I guess I should ask, what is your intention: success in competition? Or just something you can drink at home? You will likely not have success in a BJCP sanctioned competition with judges whose palates are in theory very well defined. If you're just brewing something to drink at home, then your own palate may be more forgiving.

Legendary homebrewer Mike "Tasty" McDole made famous a method for a fast-fermented lager using lager yeast. I found a power point presentation of the method here:
https://www.bayareamashers.org/wp-c...ebrewCon16-Fast-Lager-Yeast-Fermentations.pdf

It should go without saying that the ability to control your fermentation temperatures very well is paramount when using this procedure.

Wow- that is perfect for me! Thank you for sharing!
I am not interested in competitions... simply going to drink the beer myself.
I do have temo control but only one fermenter that is temp control so i was trying to avoid tying it up for 3-4 weeks to lager.

Thanks again- this is cool.

 

[Robert65]

Another alternative if you have a pressurizable fermenter, or a batch size that can be fermented in a keg, is pressure fermentation. You'll need a spunding valve, but if you can hold it at 15 psi, you can ferment a lager, with lager yeast, at ale/room temperature and at ale speed, with fully lager-like character. (German commercial brewers have this in their playbook.) So in a week, you can be ready to cold crash and carbonate the rest of the way. Probably an endless amount of info on this around here.

 

[Nate R]

Another alternative if you have a pressurizable fermenter, or a batch size that can be fermented in a keg, is pressure fermentation. You'll need a spunding valve, but if you can hold it at 15 psi, you can ferment a lager, with lager yeast, at ale/room temperature and at ale speed, with fully lager-like character. (German commercial brewers have this in their playbook.) So in a week, you can be ready to cold crash and carbonate the rest of the way. Probably an endless amount of info on this around here.

Yeah i have a spike cf5 w cooling coil and a spunding. The spike prv is set about 15 but i think i can get it to 14 or so. I will do some more research here- thanks!

If i may, a few q's:
-do you add c02 after pitching right to 15psi or do you let it naturally rise?
-say i use a basic chezch strain normally for 50°. What temp could i use instsad? 60, 70, etc.?
-final question- what should i search on to locate more info? There is a ton of addl info here

Thanks all!

 

[Robert65]

Just let the pressure rise naturally, has worked for me. It is later in fermentation that pressure helps suppress esters, and lower pressure at the start will get more yeast growth.

You probably don't want to let the internal temperature get much above 70F, just think ale. 60-70F works well.

How to search this forum? Got me! So much to wade through.

One thing to note, when doing pressure fermentation I just ferment out, then crash and force carb the rest of the way. 15 psi at 70F isn't enough carbonation. And I figure the point with the method is to ferment the whole way warm, pressurized, and fast. I only spund to fully carbonate with beers cold fermented at atmospheric pressure. I know it is possible to combine the two, it's just not something I've tried to pull off. You'd have to catch just the right point in a fermentation that can go to FG in under 3 days to increase pressure to near 30 psi at around 70F. PITA.

 

[Nate R]

Just let the pressure rise naturally, has worked for me. It is later in fermentation that pressure helps suppress esters, and lower pressure at the start will get more yeast growth.

You probably don't want to let the internal temperature get much above 70F, just think ale. 60-70F works well.

How to search this forum? Got me! So much to wade through.

One thing to note, when doing pressure fermentation I just ferment out, then crash and force carb the rest of the way. 15 psi at 70F isn't enough carbonation. And I figure the point with the method is to ferment the whole way warm, pressurized, and fast. I only spund to fully carbonate with beers cold fermented at atmospheric pressure. I know it is possible to combine the two, it's just not something I've tried to pull off. You'd have to catch just the right point in a fermentation that can go to FG in under 3 days to increase pressure to near 30 psi at around 70F. PITA.

Yeah... too much math for me tonight!! Lol.
Awesome man. Thanks!!!

 

[Steveruch]

If not a Pilsner, what would it be classified?

Pilsale? Several years ago I brewed a pilsner with Wyeast pacman at 72f (Mar/Apr 2016 Zymurgy: Last Drop) that scored 37 in a competition in the German pilsner category.

 

[Robert65]

Pilsale? Several years ago I brewed a pilsner with Wyeast pacman at 72f (Mar/Apr 2016 Zymurgy: Last Drop) that scored 37 in a competition in the German pilsner category.

Platform Brewing in Cleveland has a Pilsner-like recipe fermented with a yeast used for their pale ales. They call it Palesner.