How to make AMAZING IPA

[StopTakingMyUsername]

I don't have an RO unit to filter the water, and from a cost standpoint it wouldn't be feasible to buy water when we brew.
I can get an analysis, but the water sources from the city change at random, so it's unlikely that the same profile would stay valid. Plus there are several local breweries making IPAs that aren't that bitter (using the same water).
I'd suspect that ph/tannins might have something to do with it.
I also mill my grain at the lhbs. But if anyone knows how to build a mill for <$100 I would definitely be on board!

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

Also curious, why primary for 2 weeks? Gravity is stable after 6-7 days usually. I guess I could see giving the yeast some time to mop up any off flavor compounds... Is that why you wait 2 weeks?

 

[brick_haus]

Yes, the yeast need time to finish up. The reason for waiting to dry hop until fermentation is complete is that the co2 generated by the fermentation carries away the yummy hop aroma when it bubbles out of the airlock.
I still think it's a good idea to buy enough RO water for one batch, that will either prove or disprove whether or not it's the water chemistry messing with you.

 

[olotti]

Also curious, why primary for 2 weeks? Gravity is stable after 6-7 days usually. I guess I could see giving the yeast some time to mop up any off flavor compounds... Is that why you wait 2 weeks?

This is my preference so take it for what it's worth but I check fg at 10 days in then dry hop if hits my number then I let it sit for 3-4 days at that ambient temp then o move it to my garage fridge to cold crash for 3 days then I bottle. The longer you can let the beer sit in the primary for at least 14 days gives the yeast time to clean up any off flavors they put off as the cells die and cold crashing just helps those died yeast cells fall to the bottom as well as any hop debris caused from dry hopping. You may have known this but I'm just saying this has worse for me.

 

[olotti]

I don't have an RO unit to filter the water, and from a cost standpoint it wouldn't be feasible to buy water when we brew.
I can get an analysis, but the water sources from the city change at random, so it's unlikely that the same profile would stay valid. Plus there are several local breweries making IPAs that aren't that bitter (using the same water).
I'd suspect that ph/tannins might have something to do with it.
I also mill my grain at the lhbs. But if anyone knows how to build a mill for <$100 I would definitely be on board!

I used to buy bottled spring water from my local store for .89 a gallon but now I use RO water filled at the same store for .50 a gallon so I'm cutting cost for water in half to buy RO water. You can also have a water company come out and put an inline RO filtration system in for your brewery and in the end it'll save money just for water alone plus any mineral additions like gypsum and cal chloride are real cheap and last along time.

 

[olotti]

Oxidized hops can cause excessive bitterness. Too fine of a grain crush, too hot sparge water and high pH can cause tannin extraction (astringency). No way that recipe should be excessively bitter.
I would begin by trying a batch with RO water. Lower your sparge water temp to 170 max. Properly adjust your grain mill (not saying it's set wrong). Use freshly opened hops. Make sure there are no grain husks in your boil kettle. Keep pH below 5.6 at room temp.
Primary for two weeks, before dry hopping! Dry hop AFTER terminal gravity is obtained to achieve maximum effect.

If you're aspiring to go pro, dive into water chemistry, I've got a feeling that's what is going to help.

I hope the op sees this post I'm going through the same transition regarding water. Never really thought about it till yooper reviewed some beers I sent her and she noted that all had the astringent flavor from a too high mash ph which I never monitored and when I changed to RO with some gypsum and cal chloride additions to the mash it changed everything. Amazing how big water chemistry is to the final product of beer. I really think this is his whole prob plus not letting the beer sit in primary long enough before dry hopping.

 

[agrazela]

Maybe I missed it, but how are you chilling your wort?

 

[irishrover32]

one thing i recall is when i first dry hopped in a keg i used about 5oz in a hop bag, when i pulled the bag out it would fit through hole so i had to give it a good pull which squeezed the bag through and as this happened all the nasty juices came out of the bag and into the beer. this really effected the beer and was very grassy and soupy. if your using hop bags do not squeeze them what ever you do

 

[YanknOnion]

Oxidized hops can cause excessive bitterness. Too fine of a grain crush, too hot sparge water and high pH can cause tannin extraction (astringency). No way that recipe should be excessively bitter.
I would begin by trying a batch with RO water. Lower your sparge water temp to 170 max. Properly adjust your grain mill (not saying it's set wrong). Use freshly opened hops. Make sure there are no grain husks in your boil kettle. Keep pH below 5.6 at room temp.
Primary for two weeks, before dry hopping! Dry hop AFTER terminal gravity is obtained to achieve maximum effect.

If you're aspiring to go pro, dive into water chemistry, I've got a feeling that's what is going to help.

Bang on. biggest problem I've had with nailing ipas was from oxidation. I went round and round like that until i started all my transfers with co2 and paid attention to cold side oxygen. Problem went away, now ipas are great and hop experiments can be noted and distinguished between.

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

I used to buy bottled spring water from my local store for .89 a gallon but now I use RO water filled at the same store for .50 a gallon so I'm cutting cost for water in half to buy RO water. You can also have a water company come out and put an inline RO filtration system in for your brewery and in the end it'll save money just for water alone plus any mineral additions like gypsum and cal chloride are real cheap and last along time.

So I could look into something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Drinking-Reverse-Osmosis-System-Water/dp/B00J2DGTD8

Now if we run our water through that, should I assume that all mineral profiles are at 0, and build up to my target water profile from there?

This is probably a dumb question, but how do you buy RO water from the store? Can you just go into Safeway and they have gallon jugs of it?
I'm pretty confident that no one will know what I'm talking about if I ask lol

Maybe I missed it, but how are you chilling your wort?

Plate chiller

Bang on. biggest problem I've had with nailing ipas was from oxidation. I went round and round like that until i started all my transfers with co2 and paid attention to cold side oxygen. Problem went away, now ipas are great and hop experiments can be noted and distinguished between.

Yea we had that problem at first, but like you said, switching to CO2 transfer fixed all that

 

[beerkench]

Maybe you are over carbonating?


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[beerkench]

If it's like bong water though there could be some wild yeast in there maybe?


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[StopTakingMyUsername]

Maybe you are over carbonating?


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using Home Brew

If it's like bong water though there could be some wild yeast in there maybe?


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

Over-carbonating wouldn't lead to a bittering taste. At least, not that I've ever heard of.
It's not an infection. Guaranteed.

I know all brewers say "I'm so OCD about sanitization", but we are, and for that to be true, it would've had to have been across multiple batches (since this has been a reoccurring problem).
I also have a kitchen lab I use for yeast propagation/testing, and I'd dare to say that the yeast/fermentation side of things is my strong suit in brewing. (whereas the water chem is obviously my weakest point, and likely to be why the beer is suffering)
We have not had any (unintentional) infections to date. *knocks on wood*

 

[olotti]

So I could look into something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J2DGTD8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Now if we run our water through that, should I assume that all mineral profiles are at 0, and build up to my target water profile from there?

This is probably a dumb question, but how do you buy RO water from the store? Can you just go into Safeway and they have gallon jugs of it?
I'm pretty confident that no one will know what I'm talking about if I ask lo

Yes RO levels are at zero that's why a lot of people use it because they can then build the water to fit whatever beer they are making. I only use gypsum and cal chloride and so far it's worked out.

The RO dispenser in the store is the one where you fill your own jugs. It should say on the machine what the water is but 99% of the time it's RO water.

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

^Ok cool, thank you.

So I'll just get the necessary amount of RO water from the machine, then build it up with salts from 0.

There's an artesian well about 30 mins from me. I genuinely considered going there to get water, and getting a test done at the local health department water testing site.

but I guess if I can just buy RO that'd save a lot of time haha

 

[Queequeg]

My guess would be the result of the dry hop begin so big. If you do the dry hop experiment with bud light you will notice significantly increased bitterness from polyphenols and suspended hop particles. My guess is its this bitterness you are tasting and not isoalpha acids. If I was you I would bottle some of your next beer without dry hop and dry hop the rest, then compare.

 

[beerkench]

I would guess then from reading the posts that it's your Mash pH running to high. Try 5.3 at room temp. That works a treat.
Another thing I noticed you use a whole yeast cake to ferment your batch. Maybe you're overpitching?
I went through a period of pitching 2 packets of US-05 in and fermenting low (62) and imo the results were too clean and pilsner like with no ale character. They were turning out like overly bitter lagers. I think it needs yeast growth to help the flavour profile and help balance the beer.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

A lot of posts here but I saw that your hop storage is a potential issue. If you love hops so much I would spend the money on a vacuum sealer. Keeping them frozen slows the process of oxidation but it is still going on. You need to remove the o2 completely. You could also use large mason jars and flush them thoroughly with co2.

 

[dlaramie08]

What is the pH of your sparge water? It's nice that your mash pH is where it needs to be, but that is all negated when sparking with water that is near pH 7. Your sparge water should be acidified to near the pH of your mash. Tannin extraction is pH dependent. This may help with your bitterness issue. You have the pH meter, all you need is some flavor neutral acid (phosphoric acid and to a lesser extent hcl). Something to think about.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

It could just be that 250 sulfate is too high for your tastes. There are quite a few people on here that will do their IPAs at less than 100 sulfate, they'll leave the chloride lower to compensate.

If you ferment very dry, dry hop very heavily, and have very high sulfate levels you'll be getting out of this world hop character and bitterness. This might be causing you to pick up flavor/aromas from the hops that you might now pick up in an IPA thats doesnt finish as dry, has lower sulfate, and maybe has a lower amount/shorter duration dry hop.

I don't acidify sparge water and don't have issues with pH going into the boil, if your mash pH is spot on you dont necessarily have to acidify your sparge (as long as the sparge runnings pH doesn't go above 7 I think is the rule of thumb and if your mash is appropriately acidic it would take a lot of sparging to hit that). I generally shoot for 60-70 sulfate, 2-3oz (5 gallons) dry hop for 3-6 days (6 days max), and try to hit 1.010-1.014 (14 max) for finishing gravity and I don't get the same bong water character you are getting.

I know that there is a population that swears by the 250 sulfate but that just seems out of this world to me. (I am in no way saying I know better than the experts, 250 just seems out of this world when I look at my own person taste)

Edit: Also as you mentioned the city seems to change its water sources constantly. If you shoot for 250 sulfate off a water report saying base level is around 3, but the city changed sources and the sulfate level was actually around 50, you'll sky rocket past the 250 level. Also if other categories are much higher you could be ending up with astronomical amounts and cause major flavor issues. Try an IPA recipe you got the really bad bong water flavors from (if you can use the same year hops if at all possible), and try only adjusting the water a tiny bit, such as only increasing the sulfate by 70-80, but leave everything else the same, and see if you get the same bong-water-effect.

Edit:Edit: I wanted to share an experience the first time I fiddled with water chemistry. I managed to confuse myself on the difference between sulfate and chloride. Was making a strong scotch ale and my city water chloride levels are around 19. I wanted to bump that up particularly with how dry S04 tends to ferment for me. Went to add 1 tsp of magnesium sulfate cause I got them all backwards. The beer ended up fermenting only to 1.015 but tasted like it dropped way below 1.010 because of the super drying puckering effect high sulfate and magnesium levels can create.

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

I really appreciate all the well-thought out responses so far! Let's keep this going!

I'm going to try that same recipe with pilsner, carapils, and c40. I did like the light body profile of the last IPA. I will likely add 5-8% wheat berries (or would flaked wheat be better? Step mash?) to give more of a creamy smooth mouthfeel like the Trillium/Tree House beers

This time I will:
reduce sulfate and Cl levels.
sparge with 170 F water.
aim for mash PH of 5.2-5.6
use RO water from the store and build with a lighter version of the profile i listed.
avoid a 60 min addition and either add 0.5 oz of something at 30 min, or use FWH.
avoid columbus as the bittering addition. I am considering fuggles or magnum
only use 6 oz total (max) for dry hop, and only dry hop 6 days max
leave beer to ferment for 2 full weeks prior to dry hop
cold crash, force carb, enjoy

Might also just use citra or citra+amarillo since I have quite a bit of both left, and I know neither of those contributes grassy bong flavors.

Thoughts?

 

[chickypad]

Sounds like a solid plan. Hope you get this figured out.

 

[brick_haus]

^^^+1

 

[deepbluegroove]

Cleaning - I would make sure and take apart all your gear and clean out the gunk. This can lead to off flavors.
Sparge water temp and length - you only need to sparge at the temp you did for your mash. Higher and you may extract tannins. Also I only soak the grain for max 10 mins when I sparge.
Old Yeast Cake - Don't use a full yeast cake. You should be letting the yeast have a growth cycle. Read other articles on the downside of over pitching.
Old Yeast Cake - There is a fair amount of hops / trub material in that old yeast cake (hops would add grass funk, and perhaps bitterness)., using the same yeast cake will probably transfer that nastiness to the new beer. ( I had used an WLP568 too long and it did not taste good; something bad had started being in every saison I brewed with this washed yeast I used from batch to batch)
Dry Hopping time - I do this only after 2 weeks plus of primary, for 4 days. I have in the past dry hopped for 7 days and it created a lot of grassiness . You can also dry hop in a nylon bag in the keg itself.
Water - use Brew'N water and this will help you figure out how to get to the ideal 5.2 - 5.4 ph. I have found the mouth feel and dryness is not "tasting right" if the ph is off. The same beer at 5.8 ph is not going to taste as dry and the hops will not pop compared to one that is in the 5.2-5.4 range.

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

^thank you. all very good points.

Another question:

If you are lowering PH in an IPA recipe, do you prefer to use a small portion of acidulated malt, or just dose the strike water with the 88% lactic acid?

I'm very paranoid of adding any "Tangy" or tart flavors to this style.

(Tried a sacch trois IPA once, and absolutely loathed the tangy-ness)

 

[m00ps]

^thank you. all very good points.

Another question:

If you are lowering PH in an IPA recipe, do you prefer to use a small portion of acidulated malt, or just dose the strike water with the 88% lactic acid?

I'm very paranoid of adding any "Tangy" or tart flavors to this style.

(Tried a sacch trois IPA once, and absolutely loathed the tangy-ness)

I usually use 4-6oz of acid malt. Ive used up to 8oz a few times without any tang in the final beer. Youd need like 20% or more im guessing

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I usually use 4-6oz of acid malt. Ive used up to 8oz a few times without any tang in the final beer. Youd need like 20% or more im guessing

+1 to this

If I do a very very pale grist (aka 100% pilsner) with my city water's pH I need up to 8oz of acidulated malt to get my mash pH within acceptable ranges. You can get away with less if you plan decoctions since they will lower the overall mash pH by .1-.2 points, though this isnt really something you'd use for an IPA (normally). It's tough to get the sour tang from acidulate malt unless you are using a very large percent, or you happen to be super sensitive to the presence of lactic acid (even if you used a large percent it would be lost to any specialty malts/yeast character/alcohol presence/hop character and bitterness).

 

[fpweeks]

IF your water supply changes frequently you should consider purchasing a water test kit to you can predict what your acidulated malt additions need to be.

http://www.morebeer.com/products/lamotte-brewlab-basic-water-test-kit-718901.html

 

[beerkench]

Lactic is just as good as acid malt imo.


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[2005STi]

Could you explain how it would be water or tannins?

One issue I had for a little was that I was recreating the McDole profile which is up there in Sulfates and mis-using the Beersmith Water mineral addition calculator.

I was adding to achieve the desired ppm based off of my Total Water vs. (correctly) post-boil volume.

After correcting the numbers, I saw I was getting up to over 600ppm of sulfates that was giving me this coarse bitterness. (Distilled water was always my base water)

I know there's only a slight chance this is your issue