How to get lower FG?

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merlyone

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Hi all,

I’ve done a bunch of NEIPAs and they allways end up dry. That’s ok mut for the next batch I would like to get it more sweeter. If I tweak the mash temp to 70c/158f, fg rises too high to 1.026. That’s too high for neipa, right? What else can I do?

Thanks!


Here’s the receipe:

https://firebasestorage.googleapis....ia&token=40ef1b3d-3afa-4acd-86a4-ac36fadbcfec
Feel free to brew it! It’s a great neipa! Motueka can be changed to galaxy for example 😀
 
merlyone said:
Hi all,

I’ve done a bunch of NEIPAs and they allways end up dry. That’s ok mut for the next batch I would like to get it more sweeter. If I tweak the mash temp to 70c/158f, fg rises too high to 1.026. That’s too high for neipa, right? What else can I do?

Thanks!


Here’s the receipe:

https://firebasestorage.googleapis....ia&token=40ef1b3d-3afa-4acd-86a4-ac36fadbcfec
Feel free to brew it! It’s a great neipa! Motueka can be changed to galaxy for example 😀
Click to expand...
I’ve been actually brewing this with london fog yeast.

But if I want to keep mahs temp high what else can I change to get lower fg?
 
merlyone said:
I’ve been actually brewing this with london fog yeast.

But if I want to keep mahs temp high what else can I change to get lower fg?
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That seems like kind of high mash temp. You might have a mash ph or temp calibration issue. I would calibrate your mash temperature using a probe that goes into the grain bed.

One solution is to mash at the higher temp, and use sugar or dextrose to thin it down to your taste.
 
There’s no problem with my mashing temp. I mean, I’ve been mashing in 67c and now would like to mash 70c to get that fuller and sweeter body.

How to achieve it when the fg rises?

I tried to add some sugar/dextrose but it didn’t do anything for the fg.
 
Sugar additions can actually contribute to dryness as they totally ferment out.
fwiw, I always use a London III yeast for neipas with FGs in the high teens as a result.
Grain bills actually favor a dry brew as I only add ~4% carapils to go with the base malts - no crystal at all - and I run the mash at 150°F the whole way...

Cheers!
 
tracer bullet said:
Right, and also wondering what is the end result being looked for? More sweet and lower FG are sort of counter to each other.
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+1.. if the goal here is a Brüt NEIPA with full body, i'd think give up on the pale part and shoot for a really cloudy hoppy Amber or even brown...

edit: that gives me an idea, what about lactose or xylitol, if this is a calorie objective? or hell, nutrasweet or something?
 
A little confused here.. Is it "dry" at 1.026? because this sounds like "big stout" numbers to me.. To lower the FG, you could try some simple sugars or mashing lower(to get more simple sugars), some enzymes like beano(to get more simple sugars), or a yeast that has better attenuation (lets it eat more complex sugars).

Typically speaking, higher FG == sweeter/maltier beer, lower FG == dryer beer.
 
To raise FG (create a perceptibly sweeter beer):

-Mash warmer
-Use malt/grain that’s less fermentable
-Avoid simple sugars
-Use a less attenuative yeast
-Reference @VikeMan ’s recipe calculator
 
DBhomebrew said:
For it to change FG the sugar/dextrose must replace malt, not just add gravity to it. Add 10pts of sugar, remove 10pts of malt.
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Thanks! I’ll try this one.

The goal is to have same or fuller body as my previous neipas (fg 1.016-18) but with more sweetness in it. I know it’s not possible but maybe to get it to 1.020 and still have more sweetness in it.

I think I’ll pass the glycerin for now 😀

Btw what is the best low attenuation yeast for neipa? Wlp002? S04?
 
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Do you want low attenuation, or high attenuation but still a perception of sweetness? They're not the same thing. But for low attenuation, S-33 or Windsor Ale (they might be the same strain) are good. Also CBC-1 should do it. I don't know what liquid yeasts have low attenuation; something English.
 
z-bob said:
Do you want low attenuation, or high attenuation but still a perception of sweetness? They're not the same thing. But for low attenuation, S-33 or Windsor Ale (they might be the same strain) are good. Also CBC-1 should do it. I don't know what liquid yeasts have low attenuation; something English.
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Thanks! But doesn’t low attenuation add more sweetness? So if I mash in 70c and use low attenuation yeast, it should work and add more sweetness to the beer?
 
Had some experience making low alcohol beers. In my experience (ymmvj if you convert at higher temperatures you get more complex sugars that are not as easily converted as the simple sugars. What you may be looking for is a low attenuating yeast. Leaving the residual sugars will give you some sweetness and increased mouth feel. At least that was how it seemed to work for me.
 
merlyone said:
Thanks! But doesn’t low attenuation add more sweetness? So if I mash in 70c and use low attenuation yeast, it should work and add more sweetness to the beer?
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Yes, lower attenuating strains leave more residual sugars (maltotriose) in the beer, resulting in more sweetness. And a 70C (158F) mash temp will result in a less fermentable wort (including a comparatively higher proportion of unfermentable dextrins and partially fermentable maltotriose) than a more traditional (lower) mash temp. I would caution that unless you have very accurate control over your mash temps, perhaps stay away from the hairy edges of traditional mash temp ranges, or risk getting a very unfermentable wort if the actual temp is much different than planned.

Also, keep in mind that maltotriose is not a particularly sweet sugar. If you want a really sweet beer, consider adding some lactose, which is much sweeter than maltotriose. It's showing up in plenty of commercial "milkshake" NEIPAs. It can also be used more subtly.

All of these things, i.e. lower attenuating yeast strain, higher mash temps, and the addition of lactose, will also increase your FG. I know you don't (for whatever reason) want a high FG in your sweet (or sweet-ish) beer, but there's really no way around that.

ETA: I just read (ok, I scanned) the recipe linked in the OP. Reducing or eliminating that 30 minute hop addition would reduce bitterness, thus providing a perception of more sweetness, without increasing the FG.
 
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VikeMan said:
I know you don't (for whatever reason) want a high FG in your sweet (or sweet-ish) beer, but there's really no way around that.
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Great, thanks! So you think it’s ok to leave it that high? I mean does it matter if the fg is 1.026? I thought there was a reason/rule for keep it low.

But if it matters somehow I’ll try your tips and try to find a balance between mash temp, yeast and lactose. Maybe I can drop it few points.
 
merlyone said:
Great, thanks! So you think it’s ok to leave it that high? I mean does it matter if the fg is 1.026? I thought there was a reason/rule for keep it low.
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What matters is if the beer tastes and feels like you want it to. That said, if your main concern was that that particlular recipe ended up tasting not sweet enough, I would start with reducing or eliminating the 30 minute hop addition. There are a lot of NEIPAs being made these days without any bittering additions.
 
fwiw, an 1.026 FG is already out of style for NEIPA, which should finish somewhere below 1.020.

I understand the OP wasn't happy with their NEIPAs finishing in the classic range for the style (mid-to-high teens), so maybe style should be abandoned in this case and the OP should just go for something most people might find cloying...

Cheers!
 
I'd make it in your normal way and then back sweeten it with monk fruit extract. This is how Weldwerks add body to their Fitbits NEIPA. That is a NEIPA made to be low calorie using enzymes. The recipe is from craft beer and brewer a while ago.
I used 0.8 g per litre for a final gravity of 1.003.

This option is more tunable to your desired effect as you can experiment by the pint to get the correct taste you want.

I'd think that 0.8 g/l would be too much for a higher starting gravity, but Sup it and see.
 
VikeMan said:
What matters is if the beer tastes and feels like you want it to. That said, if your main concern was that that particlular recipe ended up tasting not sweet enough, I would start with reducing or eliminating the 30 minute hop addition. There are a lot of NEIPAs being made these days without any bittering additions.
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This is optional of course. For IBU I usually aim for approximately 40 in that 6.0% beer. I’ve noticed that’s the sweet spot for me 🙂 Have done done with warm side (boil) hop additions and without it and this works quite well for me.
 
I think there's some confusion here. The final gravity is more indicative of mouthfeel; full body vs. thin/watery.

Sweet vs Dry is a different axis that is typically discussed in terms of balance. Sweetness is perceived when there is some residual sweetness, AND it hasn't been adequately counterbalanced with bitterness, roast, or alcohol.

So, with that being said, when you say "have been too dry", clarify if you mean they taste too thin in mouthfeel, or that you don't perceive enough sweetness.

If you think the bitter/sweet balance is just about right but the mouthfeel is too thin, raising the mash temp a bit to leave a higher FG *AND* increasing the IBUs a bit will keep the balance the same but raise the mouthfeel.

If you think the mouthfeel was right, but it just needs a little more residual sweetness, leave everything the same and reduce the IBUs a bit.

While I still believe all of the above to be true, after reviewing the recipe I would say the "too dry" that you're experiencing is hop resin that won't quit. The amount of hops is over the top. Considering that Cryo is about the equivalent of double the regular pellets, you're on the edge of 2oz of dryhop per gallon. I'd back off to half of that and see if that "dryness", (hop burn) goes away.
 
I too think there is some confusion. Maybe it's all my confusion.

The post title says a lower FG is desired. But lower FG is usually less sweet and maybe dryer too.

The OP even states their goal of mashing higher is to brew a sweeter brew, which means more remaining sugars after fermentation and that will result in a higher FG.

So what exactly is the goal for a lower FG when doing things that typically result in a higher FG?
 
I second the honey malt if you are looking for sweetness. Mashing lower isn’t going to erase the sweetness from the crystals, so I think your path here is to go drier via low mash, and retain sweetness with crystals. Just don’t go crazy all at once.
 
+1 to what @Bobby_M said.

If I were to tweak the recipe, I would swap out GP with some high protein 2 Row. Rahr, Mecca or Briess would be my recommendation. Remove the maltodextrin. Even out your flaked oats and wheat malt - 15-20% each. Remove the Fuggles at 30 completely. Mash at a max of 154F (I do 152F, and my neipas are not dry. They usually finish between 1.016-1.020 and have a good juicy mouthfeel.) Something has to be off for the software to predict a 1.026 FG. I definitely would not want to mash at 158F.

London Fog is a chewer. That may be some of your issue. I prefer Coastal Haze from WL.

I'm guessing your "too dry" complaint is hop burn. Soft crash yeast out before DHing. 50F for 24-48 hrs, then DH. Free rise back to 60ish for 24-48 hours , then keg.
 
That’s true. I thought the problem was my fg that’s too high but I didn’t know it’s ok to leave it that high.

Thanks for all the tips! Let’s see how the next one one turns out.
 
wepeeler said:
Mash at a max of 154F
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154/68°C is exactly where I'd be mashing this for a ~1.018, but I'd definitely look to rejig the malt bill here.

65% GP (I love GP as a base in my NEIPAs)
15% Wheat Malt
15% Flaked Oats
5% Golden Naked Oats

I'd drop the Fuggle as above, but would do a token (~10 IBU) bittering charge of something neutral (CTZ or Magnum)
I would also push the whirlpool temp down to 70-75°C to reduce bittering extraction
 
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