How to get decoction results in a single infusion mash, Pilsner Urquell

[bumpkinbrews]

I've been following up and coming up with a recipe for a single infusion Pilsner Urquell clone using different malts to imitate the decoction factor and I've been seeing a lot of different grain bills without much follow up to how they turned out. There are some people that swear by Melanoidin and Munich. Others say to use wheat and carared and crystal but again, not much follow up on how their brew turned out and the thread eventually ends so I'm messaging and/or creating a new thread (if that's the only way to contact on that forum) to throw a line and see if I can get some answers while designing my own clone.

I have some friends here in Austin, TX that own a brewery that have their house pilsner with Pilsner Urquell as one of their inspirations and they can't decoct so compared to Urquell it's not the same even though it wants to be even though it's damn good. I also am a huge fan of PU and I want to make something that would be impressive to them as well as the fact that it would be awesome to effectively have THE single infusion substitute recipe for a Pilsner Urquell clone that could pass a blind tasting test for the real thing. That's the goal. Any help would be appreciated.

A few things in mind. I'm already aware that adding malts to imitate a decoction mash is a red herring and that's the whole point of this challenge. The impossible burger of Pilsner Urquell is the goal in mind. I'm also aware that the Czechs skip doing a diacetyl rest when fermenting so I'll be doing that as part of the process.

 

[VTMongoose]

I feel low amounts of Melanoidin and Munich malts simulate the "flavors" of decoction (which is really just caramelization) pretty well. 2 ounces of Melanoidin or say 8 ounces of a dark Munich, or both. My next 6 gallon recipe for a German Pils is going to be:

• 12 lb Weyermann Floor-Malted Bohemian Pils
• 8 oz Weyermann Barke Vienna
• 8 oz Carapils
• 2 oz Melanoidin

If I was brewing a PU clone, I would brew the above but sub the vienna for a pound of Weyermann Munich II. I would not increase the Melanoidin beyond 2 ounces (1%) in a Pilsener as it has a very strong flavor. It's like Biscuit malt in that respect.

If you are using a Czech strain for your fermentation, I would not eliminate a diacetyl rest. Most of those strains tend to leave behind some diacetyl even with a diacetyl rest - do your research of course but I am very sensitive to diacetyl.

Also, with regards to the blind taste test thing, I don't put a lot of stock in blind taste tests because it's entirely dependent on who is being given the test - that's why I tell people to take Brulosophy's work with a grain of salt - I've sat across the table from certified and national level BJCP judges who could not detect diacetyl or DMS, and vice versa I've failed to detect trans-2-nonenal at low levels in a few beers because my sensory sucks for that compound - point is, we're the "trained" folks, and even we suck sometimes. Even if I succeeded in homebrewing what I considered to be a literally perfect clone of Pilsener Urquell, I'm certain that if I gave a triangle test to an industry professional from the Czech Republic, they would pick out the differences!

 

[SaisonMan]

I feel low amounts of Melanoidin and Munich malts simulate the "flavors" of decoction (which is really just caramelization) pretty well. 2 ounces of Melanoidin or say 8 ounces of a dark Munich, or both. My next 6 gallon recipe for a German Pils is going to be:

• 12 lb Weyermann Floor-Malted Bohemian Pils
• 8 oz Weyermann Barke Vienna
• 8 oz Carapils
• 2 oz Melanoidin

If I was brewing a PU clone, I would brew the above but sub the vienna for a pound of Weyermann Munich II. I would not increase the Melanoidin beyond 2 ounces (1%) in a Pilsener as it has a very strong flavor. It's like Biscuit malt in that respect.

If you are using a Czech strain for your fermentation, I would not eliminate a diacetyl rest. Most of those strains tend to leave behind some diacetyl even with a diacetyl rest - do your research of course but I am very sensitive to diacetyl.

Also, with regards to the blind taste test thing, I don't put a lot of stock in blind taste tests because it's entirely dependent on who is being given the test - that's why I tell people to take Brulosophy's work with a grain of salt - I've sat across the table from certified and national level BJCP judges who could not detect diacetyl or DMS, and vice versa I've failed to detect trans-2-nonenal at low levels in a few beers because my sensory sucks for that compound - point is, we're the "trained" folks, and even we suck sometimes. Even if I succeeded in homebrewing what I considered to be a literally perfect clone of Pilsener Urquell, I'm certain that if I gave a triangle test to an industry professional from the Czech Republic, they would pick out the differences!

Are there methods in your mash process that take into account that floor-malted Bohemian Pils is slightly under-modified? Or in the amount you use in the recipe?

 

[bumpkinbrews]

I feel low amounts of Melanoidin and Munich malts simulate the "flavors" of decoction (which is really just caramelization) pretty well. 2 ounces of Melanoidin or say 8 ounces of a dark Munich, or both. My next 6 gallon recipe for a German Pils is going to be:

• 12 lb Weyermann Floor-Malted Bohemian Pils
• 8 oz Weyermann Barke Vienna
• 8 oz Carapils
• 2 oz Melanoidin

If I was brewing a PU clone, I would brew the above but sub the vienna for a pound of Weyermann Munich II. I would not increase the Melanoidin beyond 2 ounces (1%) in a Pilsener as it has a very strong flavor. It's like Biscuit malt in that respect.

If you are using a Czech strain for your fermentation, I would not eliminate a diacetyl rest. Most of those strains tend to leave behind some diacetyl even with a diacetyl rest - do your research of course but I am very sensitive to diacetyl.

Also, with regards to the blind taste test thing, I don't put a lot of stock in blind taste tests because it's entirely dependent on who is being given the test - that's why I tell people to take Brulosophy's work with a grain of salt - I've sat across the table from certified and national level BJCP judges who could not detect diacetyl or DMS, and vice versa I've failed to detect trans-2-nonenal at low levels in a few beers because my sensory sucks for that compound - point is, we're the "trained" folks, and even we suck sometimes. Even if I succeeded in homebrewing what I considered to be a literally perfect clone of Pilsener Urquell, I'm certain that if I gave a triangle test to an industry professional from the Czech Republic, they would pick out the differences!

Here is my current PU clone grain bill:

• 8.5 lbs Weyermann Pils
• 1.5 lbs Red X
• 3 oz Melanoidin

I'm running it into Beersmith adjusting the specialty malts to get around 5.5 SRM which is what I've been informed the color of Pilsner Urquell is at. I haven't seen any homebrew single infusion PU imitations utilize Red X and since the flavor is closer to Munich but the lovibond is closer to Dark Munich, I'm using Red X mostly for color control. So, with what you said about Melanoidin and dark munich in mind I just readjusted it to this:

• 8.5 lbs Weyermann Pils
• 1 lb Red X
• 12 oz Dark Munich
• 2 oz Melanoidin

What do you think?

Also, I hear you about taste testing and agree about taking blind tasting with a grain of salt. Actually, I just took the tasting portion of the Cicerone test last week, and.... I came in very confident and left devastated. I almost aced the beer style section no problem, but the off flavor and quality assessment I felt about as secure as running into a drunk schizophrenic hobo who's trying to convince you that he rides in spaceships. Ironically enough, one of the untreated samples was a Pilsner Urquell that I thought was oxidized and one sample that had trans-2-nonenal came off to my palate as lightstruck and the diacetyl sample I wrote off as Acetic. I was very surprised that I bombed the off flavors, as I have 2 years experience working as a brewer on a 20bbl microbrewery and my boss who's got a Cicerone, educated and tested me, intensely, about off flavors.

I love brulosophy's exbeeriments, however, I imagine that the physics of a homebrew sized system just doesn't translate to a large brewery. In fact, I wonder if the only way to get the decoction color that PU has is by brewing it on a similar scale, since they use 170bbl mash tuns on direct flame which has a much more intense heat and pressure that's not possible in tiny batches.

 

[gunhaus]

Easiest way is to just do the decoction. If you can boil water you can hack it.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm not convinced that homebrewers can pull off a decoction reasonably such that they get all the benefits but none of the oxidation. Breweries have the advantage of high volume to surface area and completely closed transfers.

 

[VTMongoose]

Are there methods in your mash process that take into account that floor-malted Bohemian Pils is slightly under-modified? Or in the amount you use in the recipe?

Yes, for bo pils I do a longer saccharification rest than for regular pils. An extra 15-20 minutes should be enough (always verify with a cheapo refractometer obviously). I end up getting about the same extract as with regular pils if I just wait.

Here is my current PU clone grain bill:

• 8.5 lbs Weyermann Pils
• 1.5 lbs Red X
• 3 oz Melanoidin

I'm running it into Beersmith adjusting the specialty malts to get around 5.5 SRM which is what I've been informed the color of Pilsner Urquell is at. I haven't seen any homebrew single infusion PU imitations utilize Red X and since the flavor is closer to Munich but the lovibond is closer to Dark Munich, I'm using Red X mostly for color control. So, with what you said about Melanoidin and dark munich in mind I just readjusted it to this:

• 8.5 lbs Weyermann Pils
• 1 lb Red X
• 12 oz Dark Munich
• 2 oz Melanoidin

What do you think?

Also, I hear you about taste testing and agree about taking blind tasting with a grain of salt. Actually, I just took the tasting portion of the Cicerone test last week, and.... I came in very confident and left devastated. I almost aced the beer style section no problem, but the off flavor and quality assessment I felt about as secure as running into a drunk schizophrenic hobo who's trying to convince you that he rides in spaceships. Ironically enough, one of the untreated samples was a Pilsner Urquell that I thought was oxidized and one sample that had trans-2-nonenal came off to my palate as lightstruck and the diacetyl sample I wrote off as Acetic. I was very surprised that I bombed the off flavors, as I have 2 years experience working as a brewer on a 20bbl microbrewery and my boss who's got a Cicerone, educated and tested me, intensely, about off flavors.

I love brulosophy's exbeeriments, however, I imagine that the physics of a homebrew sized system just doesn't translate to a large brewery. In fact, I wonder if the only way to get the decoction color that PU has is by brewing it on a similar scale, since they use 170bbl mash tuns on direct flame which has a much more intense heat and pressure that's not possible in tiny batches.

I've never brewed with Red X so I can't comment on that malt, but it seems like that recipe would work for your intended purpose. I would still dial back the munich and/or Red X. On the homebrewer scale, we almost always pick up more color during the whole brewing process compared to commercial. If you're bottling from a bucket instead of doing closed transfers or using a counterpressure filler or beer gun, you're particularly screwed - oxidation is going to happen no matter what. We also oftentimes get oxidation on the hot side and depending on your kettle setup, you can get caramelization with a really vigorous flame boil.

Sounds like you were just having an off day when you took that exam, man. With your experience actually working in a brewery and taking the off-flavor kits more than once, your taste buds are probably better than a lot of actual certified cicerones and BJCP judges. It happens. When I did the BJCP exam earlier this year it was hard. All of us were highly in disagreement with the proctors on two of the beers, and almost all of them were adulterated to a degree. Doing a truly blind tasting is very hard.

 

[SaisonMan]

Thanks for the reply. I’m brewing a Pilsner Urquell clone next week and I think I’m going to try a double or triple decoction just for the experience. I use an electric all-in-one so I’m not sure what to expect. But, all things being equal, maybe a regular mash with floor malted is the way to go.

 

[DuncB]

Just brewed a pilsner, did a step mash but for the first time pulled out several sieve fulls of grain. Then some liquid, volume was 4.5 litres and just held at 62 for 15 minutes and then raised to boil for ten minutes.
Added back in as the next step up was about to start.
I think it made a difference, but a few weeks will tell.
Not the terror process I thought it would be.

 

[k-daddy]

Thanks for the reply. I’m brewing a Pilsner Urquell clone next week and I think I’m going to try a double or triple decoction just for the experience. I use an electric all-in-one so I’m not sure what to expect. But, all things being equal, maybe a regular mash with floor malted is the way to go.

I plan on doing the same for my next brew. I'll be following the steps that "The Apartment Brewer" uses in the attached video link. Good luck and please let us know how it went. I'm looking forward to hearing if the double/triple decoction does indeed impart a fuller malt flavor to the Pilsner as compared to the addition of Melanoidin malt and no decoction.

 

[SaisonMan]

I plan on doing the same for my next brew. I'll be following the steps that "The Apartment Brewer" uses in the attached video link. Good luck and please let us know how it went. I'm looking forward to hearing if the double/triple decoction does indeed impart a fuller malt flavor to the Pilsner as compared to the addition of Melanoidin malt and no decoction.

Great video. Thanks for passing it along. Very informative … and a bit daunting. I’ll try to report back after I brew and after I keg.

 

[VTMongoose]

Thanks for the reply. I’m brewing a Pilsner Urquell clone next week and I think I’m going to try a double or triple decoction just for the experience. I use an electric all-in-one so I’m not sure what to expect. But, all things being equal, maybe a regular mash with floor malted is the way to go.

I was talking to another member of my homebrew club recently and we were in agreement that decoction is probably a bad idea at the homebrew level. With Steve's approach in that video, he is definitely getting hot-side oxidation/aeration, and lots of it. Whether it's enough to cause problems he can detect with the end beer is another matter. He certainly seemed to enjoy the beer in the video. I would venture to guess that in a blind tasting, he would prefer a step mashed version. I could be wrong in saying that. Everyone has a different threshold for trans-2-nonenal and other oxidative byproducts.

I think you can't go wrong starting with a single infusion for any beer style and then going from there. Just because Schneider-Weisse does a 95-113-122-147-167°F mash regimen with one decoction for Aventinus doesn't mean I can't toss a bunch of grains in an igloo cooler at 147°F for 90 minutes and get 90% of the results - you totally can, assuming you're lucky enough to also nail their fermentation profile, their selection of grains, the freshness and selection of hops, packaging everything perfectly without introducing oxygen, etc... bottom line in the grand scheme of the nearly-perfect process the Europeans use to deliver brilliance in a bottle, mash regimen is a very small "lever" you can pull, so to speak.

I'm partially saying this to myself, because I have messed with very elaborate mash regimens in the past that hurt me more than they helped me. To date my best brews have largely been simple single infusions.

Bottom line I would do a long single infusion with bo pils.

 

[Basspaleale]

This is how Weyermann suggests you do a single decoction. I found this on their website,
Decoction (single-decoction mashing): Mash in at 62°C (144°F) and rest
for 30 minutes, heat up to 68°C (154°F) and rest for 10 minutes, heat up to
72°C (162°F) and rest for 15 minutes, draw partial mash and boil for 5
minutes, return the boiling part and mash out at 78°C (172°F).

 

[k-daddy]

Great video. Thanks for passing it along. Very informative … and a bit daunting. I’ll try to report back after I brew and after I keg.

I'm going to put together a checklist of the steps involved... seems like a lot but on paper, it looks fairly straightforward. I purchased the 1qt. dipper used in the video and I have repurposed an old kettle with a temperature probe inserted in the low port. I've been looking into the issue of hot side aeration that VTMongoose mentions. He and others say on a home-brew level, it's an issue while others say it's nothing to be concerned about. I'm still planning to give it a go... if only for the experience but a tasty pils would be a nice bonus.

 

[VTMongoose]

I'm going to put together a checklist of the steps involved... seems like a lot but on paper, it looks fairly straightforward. I purchased the 1qt. dipper used in the video and I have repurposed an old kettle with a temperature probe inserted in the low port. I've been looking into the issue of hot side aeration that VTMongoose mentions. He and others say on a home-brew level, it's an issue while others say it's nothing to be concerned about. I'm still planning to give it a go... if only for the experience but a tasty pils would be a nice bonus.

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying it is or isn't. I'm saying it can be. It's likely situation-dependent.

 

[ranman]

My print subscription to BYO goes back to late 2013. I'm trying to find which issues have stories and recipes for a single decoction czech pilsner. I used to be able to google-find the correct issue(s) from the BYO site, but now they have a pay-wall in front. Since I'm only a print subscriber and not a digital subscriber, I'm SOL.

Does anyone have a digital BYO sub that can let me know the BYO issues that have those stories/recipes?

Ch(B)eers!

 

[Yesfan]

My print subscription to BYO goes back to late 2013. I'm trying to find which issues have stories and recipes for a single decoction czech pilsner. I used to be able to google-find the correct issue(s) from the BYO site, but now they have a pay-wall in front. Since I'm only a print subscriber and not a digital subscriber, I'm SOL.

Does anyone have a digital BYO sub that can let me know the BYO issues that have those stories/recipes?

Ch(B)eers!

If you can't find it, I'd go with the Weyermann suggestion that @Basspaleale posted earlier.

 

[AlcheMania]

I feel low amounts of Melanoidin and Munich malts simulate the "flavors" of decoction (which is really just caramelization) pretty well. 2 ounces of Melanoidin or say 8 ounces of a dark Munich, or both. My next 6 gallon recipe for a German Pils is going to be:

• 12 lb Weyermann Floor-Malted Bohemian Pils
• 8 oz Weyermann Barke Vienna
• 8 oz Carapils
• 2 oz Melanoidin

If I was brewing a PU clone, I would brew the above but sub the vienna for a pound of Weyermann Munich II. I would not increase the Melanoidin beyond 2 ounces (1%) in a Pilsener as it has a very strong flavor. It's like Biscuit malt in that respect.

If you are using a Czech strain for your fermentation, I would not eliminate a diacetyl rest. Most of those strains tend to leave behind some diacetyl even with a diacetyl rest - do your research of course but I am very sensitive to diacetyl.

Also, with regards to the blind taste test thing, I don't put a lot of stock in blind taste tests because it's entirely dependent on who is being given the test - that's why I tell people to take Brulosophy's work with a grain of salt - I've sat across the table from certified and national level BJCP judges who could not detect diacetyl or DMS, and vice versa I've failed to detect trans-2-nonenal at low levels in a few beers because my sensory sucks for that compound - point is, we're the "trained" folks, and even we suck sometimes. Even if I succeeded in homebrewing what I considered to be a literally perfect clone of Pilsener Urquell, I'm certain that if I gave a triangle test to an industry professional from the Czech Republic, they would pick out the differences!

It was my understanding that caramelization occurs minimally (if at all) at boiling temperatures. Whereas maillard type reactions do take place (though at a slow pace @ 212F) during decoction boils.

 

[Willy]

Seems like a lot of potential trouble and just... Trouble(a pain) for a homebrewer. I wasnt planning on a triple decocoction day anytime soon, but I believe @Bobby_M makes a lot of sense. BUT ..

Pilsner Urquel is personal favorite - my target beer for a Czech triple decoc. I have had a six pack available to sample for the last six months, sample a PU, then my clone. I am currently on batch #4 in experimentation.

Getting closer all the time.
My recipe/method - best if you step mash, but mashing for 75-90 minutes helps a bunch, whether single or step mash.
I reduce my pilsner grain bill and add a few pounds of Breiss Pilsner liquid malt extract.
By adding the small amount of LME late in the boil, the final beer color becomes a little more golden and the mouthfeel/taste seems closer as well.
I am very happy with the current iteration and suspect batch #5 might even be better.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

I'm not convinced that homebrewers can pull off a decoction reasonably such that they get all the benefits but none of the oxidation. Breweries have the advantage of high volume to surface area and completely closed transfers.

Oxidation, SMOXidation. I been decocting for years and no weird flavors that can be directly pointed to any of that. There I sedit! Just ignore me I got issues, but not brewing issues....

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Seems like a lot of potential trouble and just... Trouble(a pain) for a homebrewer. I wasnt planning on a triple decocoction day anytime soon, but I believe @Bobby_M makes a lot of sense. BUT ..

Pilsner Urquel is personal favorite - my target beer for a Czech triple decoc. I have had a six pack available to sample for the last six months, sample a PU, then my clone. I am currently on batch #4 in experimentation.

Getting closer all the time.
My recipe/method - best if you step mash, but mashing for 75-90 minutes helps a bunch, whether single or step mash.
I reduce my pilsner grain bill and add a few pounds of Breiss Pilsner liquid malt extract.
By adding the small amount of LME late in the boil, the final beer color becomes a little more golden and the mouthfeel/taste seems closer as well.
I am very happy with the current iteration and suspect batch #5 might even be better.

Have you ever tried boiling down the first runnings....... say the 1st 1.25 GAL to a near gel? Then rest of the runnings on top and do your 90-120 min or whatever length as a regular boil on top of that? -An old British trick from way back that is.

 

[AlcheMania]

Have you ever tried boiling down the first runnings....... say the 1st 1.25 GAL to a near gel? Then rest of the runnings on top and do your 90-120 min or whatever length as a regular boil on top of that? -An old British trick from way back that is.

This is similar to the trick I employ for my pilsners, except I pull bout 1.4 gallons @ 25 minutes into the mash and pressure boil for 30 minutes, then add back into mash as im ramping up to mash out. Takes about 12 minutes from pulling wort to reaching full pressure boil so my total sach rest ends up taking about 70 minutes. Works like a charm.