How should a Berliner Weisse Taste?

[olllllo]

Ron, bear in mind, you did just post in a forum full of twats.*

 

[carnevoodoo]

Do I know what I'm talking about? Read this and make your own mind up:

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search/label/Berliner Weisse

So you post a link where two posts down from the top Berliner post goes through a few Berliners...

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2009/09/berliner-weisse-and-brettanomyces.html

"The Landré was nicely, but not crazily, sour."

"Groterjan had a whole barnyard in its aroma. A touch less sour, and with a a spike of infection. Think bière de garde. "

There are discussions all over that blog about how brett is NOT in every example of a berliner weisse. And how they're not all intensely sour. Styles vary, and there's a big variance on this style, even traditionally.

 

[arturo7]

What does being a **** have to do with style differences and similarities?

 

[ChrisKennedy]

What are the examples of this supposedly distinct American style? Hottenroth and?

Hottenroth was a fine beer, but the nearly complete lack of lactic sourness (at least in the examples I have tried) means that, to me, it is not a Berliner at all. To call a beer without a fairly assertive lactic sourness a berliner is like calling a beer without a fairly assertive hoppy aroma/flavor an American IPA. It may share other similarities, but it is missing what is essentially the hallmark of the style.

 

[patto1ro]

So you post a link where two posts down from the top Berliner post goes through a few Berliners...

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2009/09/berliner-weisse-and-brettanomyces.html

"The Landré was nicely, but not crazily, sour."

"Groterjan had a whole barnyard in its aroma. A touch less sour, and with a a spike of infection. Think bière de garde. "

There are discussions all over that blog about how brett is NOT in every example of a berliner weisse. And how they're not all intensely sour. Styles vary, and there's a big variance on this style, even traditionally.

You cut out all the best bits:

"What did they taste like?" That was the point of all this. Telling you that. Sort of. I didn't take notes. I never do in Wildeman. These are just my impressions, recorded a day or two later. Ohne Gewähr, as they say on German TV.

The Landré was nicely, but not crazily, sour. Pretty clean tasting. A touch of rotting hay. Bone dry. In incredibly good nick for its age.

Groterjan had a whole barnyard in its aroma. A touch less sour, and with a a spike of infection. Think bière de garde. About double the mouldy wood accent that has. Drinkable despite that. Despite that. What am I saying, despite that. Beers several decades its junior I've spat into the canal. I'm being picky.




I'm being picky again.

 

[arturo7]

Guess I had the wrong idea. The BJCP indicates "clean lactic sourness dominates and can be quite strong." Hottenroth is probably not a good example of the style. (still, however, a tasty quaff)

I had assumed that the "American" style meant that it was less sour than the traditional style. Most of the American versions I had were rather tame, and in Berlin, the style is usually served with a sweetener.

Damn, now I want one.

 

[remilard]

Guess I had the wrong idea. The BJCP indicates "clean lactic sourness dominates and can be quite strong." Hottenroth is probably not a good example of the style. (still, however, a tasty quaff)

I had assumed that the "American" style meant that it was less sour than the traditional style. Most of the American versions I had were rather tame, and in Berlin, the style is usually served with a sweetener.

Damn, now I want one.

That's an interesting point in that, the person who likes Berliner Weiss in Berlin is rare to the point that they treat you like a moron if you try to order one without a shot (including doing so in proficient german). Of course, we like to glamorous lambic and people are mixing sugar into that in the Senne Valley.

So one distinction in american craft and home brewed versions is that, in most cases, we are brewing a beer to be drunk as is. I'm sure I've read that Berliner Weiss was not as sour at some points in history as it is now.

IME you need to put something pretty sour in front of most BJCP judges.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Look, all I am saying is that both descriptions are valid.

It appears that, if you want to make a traditional, geographically correct, "ethnically" correct Berliner then you brew it to the descriptions if the VLB.

But, if you want to compete with one in the US then you make it according to the BJCP.

Capice? Faham? Begreifen? Wakari masu ka?


Personally, I don't care which way it's brewed. I still don'y have any personal experience with the style as I can't eem to find it anywhere when I travel. I'd love to try it tho.

 

[ArcaneXor]

I think the "ethnically correct" comment is way out of line.

A BW is a BW. Just like a Koelsch is a Koelsch, and an Altbier and Altbier. They are historic styles with a strong "place" aspect reflecting the cities of Berlin, Cologne and Duesseldorf in which they evolved over time. As homebrewers, we can use these styles as inspirations and tweak them to please our palates in whichever way we want. But what we or the BJCP thinks (based on what they see in the domestic market and at competitions) doesn't change what the authentic styles are.

Having to stray from the original flavor profile to match the BJCP guidelines to have a chance of winning something is another of many examples how detrimental the de-facto judging monopoly of the BJCP and their obsession with sometimes-arbitrary styles is detrimental to the competition side of our beloved hobby.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I think the "ethnically correct" comment is way out of line.

You have GOT to be joking.

Ethnic

a. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.

It's even in the title, Berliner aka of Berlin. How is that not ethnic?

Not everything is a slur against humanity.

 

[Edcculus]

I can't the VLB page. I'm not sure what the big argument is here? Can someone post an English translation of what the VLB says the style should be?

I'm also not sure what is wrong with the BJCP guidelines...Maybe it needs to be tweaked so the line "not as sour as lambic" isn't there, but besides that, I don't see a huge problem...

Remember guys, the BJCP isn't perfect. Its not a list handed down from the brewing Gods telling us how to brew. If you have a problem with the guidelines, then by all mean write and publish your own. Instead of griping, join, or write them to express how you think their description of the style is a little off. Its not some evil monopoply trying to force everyone to brew how they think a style should be. Its a group of dedicated beer nuts trying their best (for free) to document and classify world beer styles.

 

[ArcaneXor]

You have GOT to be joking.

Ethnic

a. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.

It's even in the title, Berliner aka of Berlin. How is that not ethnic?

Not everything is a slur against humanity.

It's a very loaded word when you relate it to something from Berlin of all places, but I suppose one only develops that type of sensitivity when one has lived in Germany for a while. In any case, it doesn't really make sense to use the word in this context, since post-war Berlin is neither racially, nationally, religiously or culturally homogenous.

 

[Bobby_M]

I really think you're reading too far into. Perhaps "geographically correct" wouldn't have stirred the pot but whatever.

 

[ArcaneXor]

I agree. Let's get back to the regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Morkin]

A picture of my Berliner Weisse. Getting more sour in the bottles. How does it look?